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#133. The Substandard on Steve Ditko and Supervillains
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Dudes Chatting — Steve Ditko and favorite Spider-Man villains: Micro-episode. Steve Ditko died June 29, aged 90, found in his apartment after seven days — as reclusive in death as in life. Ditko co-created Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, Hawk and Dove, and The Question (the basis for Rorschach in Watchmen). JVL considers Hawk and Dove his worst creation; Sonny argues Ditko is known only for his first decade of work and that his post-1968 Randian solo output doesn't change the legacy. The Stan Lee/Ditko credit dispute: Ditko's legalistic, Randian response to Lee's casual claim of co-creatorship is noted as characteristically uncompromising. (Kevin Bienvenu, JVL's friend, wrote a tribute piece.) Favorite Spider-Man villains: Vic goes Electro, with Mysterio and the Punisher as honorables (and reveals he owns Amazing Spider-Man #129, the first Punisher appearance, plus the first Shocker issue); JVL picks Doc Ock (not Green Goblin); Sonny goes Venom and Carnage, with Hobgoblin as the underrated choice. Marvel TSR RPG tangent: Vic built a character armed with an RPG launcher.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00Spider-Man! Your webs are useless against me, for all the power of electricity is mine!
Vic00:00:16Hello, and welcome to another micro-episode of The Substandard, sponsored by Quip. The truth is, most of us are brushing our teeth wrong, not for long enough, and forget to change our brush on time. That's because most brands focus on selling flashy gimmicks rather than better brushing. But not Quip. Quip is an electric toothbrush that's a fraction of the cost of bulkier brushes, while still packing just the right amount of vibrations to help clean your teeth. Quip starts at just $25, and if you go to Quip.com slash Substandard right now, you'll get your first refill pack free with a Quip electric toothbrush. I'm Victor Matus, along with Sonny Bunch and Jonathan V. Last. Just a quick reminder, the... that full episodes of The Substandard are available every Thursday at 11 a.m. So we've got some sad news. Back on June 29, Marvel Comics legend Steve Ditko died at age 90. Ditko co-created and drew, illustrated Spider-Man, Doc Ock, the Green Goblin, of course, Doctor Strange, among others. But he himself was a bit strange, a bit of a recluse. Your thoughts, JVL?
JVL00:01:23Don't forget Hawk and Dove, his most famous creation. Boo. Boo. Hawk and Dove are the worst. The worst. I remember when they were with the New Teen Titans briefly, and I just, I was not actually especially conservative as a kid. I was, in fact, quite liberal. And as, like, a 10- or 12-year-old reading the New Teen Titans, I wanted to punch Dove in the face. I was just like, this guy's ridiculous.
Vic00:01:49What is this guy?
JVL00:01:51So what was Dove's power? Was he preaching peace? Dove was the brother who was, always like, you know, I don't know, maybe he just, maybe the guys from Trident really just are, why don't we talk to them? You know, and Dove was like, punch him in the face, punch him in the face. Hawk, hawk, hawk. I saw a hawk, right. And this is, like, of course, the answer to, like, the operatives from Trident, or Brother Blood, is, in fact, to punch them in the face.
Sonny00:02:20Yeah, well, I mean, this is the standard comic book answer. This is not, you know. Right. What was interesting, what was interesting about Steve Ditko is that he died, and nobody knew about it for, like, seven days. Yeah. I mean, that's how much of a recluse. That is, like, that is, like. Found in his apartment. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is, like, the operative thing that you need to understand about Steve Ditko. He has been working nonstop. He died as he lived. For 50 years. Oh, come on, that was good. He did, that was good. That was good. Very good, J.O. But, I mean, he has been working. I mean, he works, and he publishes, he basically self-publishes comics, and they're, like, super objectivist, and he is, like, he's, you know, kind of a weirdo and a recluse. A is A. A is A. Yeah, he's a big Randian. Yeah, he was, I mean, he was.
JVL00:03:02Personal friends of. Wow. Oh, really? He is 90. I didn't know that, actually.
Sonny00:03:06But it was, it's, you know, he's kind of a fascinating figure, because he is one of the foundational figures in the modern comic book universe. It's basically Lee Kirby Ditko at the beginning of Marvel. Like, those are, like, the three names. No, that is the tripartite. And he just, he left in, I want to say it was either, I think it was 68, or maybe it was a little. 67, yeah. And just never looked back. And, you know, he had a falling out with Stanley. And, like, there's, there was a, there's a very good profile of Ditko that ran in Vulture, maybe last year or the year before. It was whenever this Doctor Strange movie came out that is about how he is, like, he's a giant recluse. And it is, it's instructive to kind of listen to his response to, to Stanley when Stanley, Stanley had, in an interview, said he was the creator of Spider-Man. And, of course, this drove Steve Ditko mad with anger and, and, you know. Stanley says a lot of things. Stanley says a lot of things. I mean, it would be the perfect thing if Stanley died this week and stole all the, stole all the.
Vic00:04:14Poor Steve Ditko, yeah.
Sonny00:04:16Don't die, Stanley, please. That would be the most. Vic, don't say his name. Don't say his name. Don't say it. I was just about to make an observation, but that's okay.
Vic00:04:23Go ahead.
Sonny00:04:23So, anyway. So, Stanley takes credit for creating Spider-Man and Steve Ditko, you know, furiously fires off letters to the magazine that published the interview. Saying, who is John Galt? Yeah, it was. And, and so, and so Stanley was surprised by this and he responds, he says, I think the person who has the idea is the person who created it. And he, but he said, you know, Ditko, Ditko was always there and he considered Steve Ditko a co-creator. And, and, and Ditko's response, Ditko's response is, is perfect and like kind of a window into his specific brand of madness. This is from the Vulture story. Ditko wrote a response in an essay three years later stating, quote, considered means to ponder, look at, closely examine, et cetera, and does not admit or claim or state that Steve Ditko is Spider-Man's co-creator.
JVL00:05:15Now, it's that sort of like,
Sonny00:05:17there's like a very kind of legalistic and logic-based response here to what, to, to what is like, Stan Lee obviously saying, yes, I consider him a co-creator. It's like, this is, we created him together. I don't know. He's, he's, he's, he was, he was an interesting figure. He was a kind of a crazy person. His, his biggest post-Marvel creation is probably, what was it? The Answer? Or is it The Question? The Question. Who is Rorschach? Who is, who is like the, the kind of a figure that Rorschach from Watchmen is based on. And all of his comics for the last 50 years have been about, like, proving that it is bad to help people selflessly. And it is good to kill criminals because they're wicked and, and personally, it's my sort of thing. I'm like totally into it.
Vic00:06:06It's very, that's very Bunshian. And he sort of dabbled, he went, he went both ways, shall we say, in the comic sense, meaning Marvel and DC. I mean, he grew up aspiring Batman. And independent, Charlton. That's right. And then, and then he was with Marvel. And then, and then he became like a freelancer for life after that, right, after.
JVL00:06:22Yep. He, my buddy Kevin Benversi did a, a really nice piece for us yesterday about Ditko. And the, one of the points he makes, which I think is interesting, is that we have gotten used to comic book creators being impresarios, you know, with the like sort of larger than life outsized personalities because they're hawking their goods, essentially, you know. And so Stan Lee is like that. Mark Millar is like that. There's a lot of that. Frank Miller was like that. Ditko is the opposite. And yet his stuff endures. And Ditko is sort of an object lesson in how what's actually important is the work. The public persona is, you are wrong if you confuse the impresario part as saying, oh, well, that's a necessary part of the creative process. It's not.
Sonny00:07:08Can I, I would, I would dispute that slightly insofar as nobody really knows anything about Steve Ditko's work post 1968. Really? I mean, like a great, there's some, there's some, there's some like Hawk and Dove or whatever. I mean, everyone thinks of Steve Ditko as the guy who made Spider-Man and Doctor Strange. And he's been working for 40 years after that,
JVL00:07:3450 years after that. So the impresario part matters some, right? Well, I don't know. I mean, I would say that Ditko is known for his best work. His best work, as it, if we could be honest, as it does with almost everybody creatively, the best work comes very, very early. Their best work is the first five or 10 years. Frank Miller's best stuff is his very early stuff. This is true. I just picked up a copy of... Maybe not of Mark Millar.
Sonny00:07:59I just picked up a copy of Dark Knight 3, The Master Race, the hardcover. Really? And I'm curious to see if it's... Did you get that down in Charlottesville?
JVL00:08:09No, no, no, I didn't. Oh, I get it. It's a white power joke. Wow.
Sonny00:08:15I'm excited to dip into it. I haven't had a chance yet, but...
JVL00:08:18Are there 14 words on the first panel, or no?
Sonny00:08:21My understanding is it's handed out to everyone at the Department of Homeland Security. Yeah, as required reading.
Vic00:08:27Victorino, JVL. You were a Spider-Man guy, right? I liked Spider-Man a lot. I mean, obviously, my sister was a huge Spider-Man fan. You, in fact, have one of the most important Spider-Man issues. I, well, in my mind, I have, yeah. You know, I tell you, I thought... 81, Spidey 81. I had one that I also thought was going to be the next big thing, which was Web of Spider-Man,
JVL00:08:48issue one, but that went nowhere, Web of Spider-Man.
Sonny00:08:51I have the whole run of Web of Spider-Man.
JVL00:08:52You do, yeah. Was that the Todd McFarlane first?
Sonny00:08:55The first black, is that? It's the, it's, well, it's, the first issue is the issue where he relieves himself of the black costume, I think, right? Yes, yes. Like, he goes in the bell tower, and it, like, That's right. flies from the gotcha.
Vic00:09:08No, I have, yes, it's true. I have the debut of the Punisher Spider-Man comic book. Which is what? You know, okay, give me a number on that. I'm going to guess it's 81, and then I'm going to effort it. What is your... I could not, I could not tell you the number at all. I will effort that. You keep talking. But I must have spent, I don't know, it was a big deal because it was at the Elks Club. 129. That's not bad. I was going to say something like 100-something like that. Like 120-something. 129.
JVL00:09:34Boom. Whoa! 129.
Sonny00:09:36Boom.
JVL00:09:38That's like... That's weird. That's weird.
Sonny00:09:40That's five years of wizard reading right there. Sticking itself in my brain. Look at that.
JVL00:09:45In our next episode, we're going to discuss Settlers of Katanga. And hey, look, here is someone selling one for $4.49. Oh, no, that's...
Vic00:09:52The quality, however...
JVL00:09:54And then I have... It's only a 3.0. The other... What?
Vic00:09:56And then the other comic I have is the debut of the Shocker. The villain.
JVL00:10:03The villain. Oh. Who also appears in Spider-Man Homecoming. He's in Spider-Man Homecoming, briefly. That's right.
Vic00:10:07Very exciting. And I was a big fan of his. I liked his style. What was it you liked about the Shocker? Yeah, he was so shocking.
JVL00:10:15He had a large head. He has a poor man's electrum.
Sonny00:10:18Well, who was your... Who was your...
JVL00:10:19To swerve from the... Your favorite Spider-Man villain. Oh. Mysterio, wasn't it? I loved Mysterio. That's why I liked Mysterio.
Vic00:10:26I liked Mysterio. Not the Green Goblin. You felt a kinship with him. Not the Green Goblin. And I kind of like Scorpion in a weird way. But, you know... Scorpion? I know, I know, I know. But Mysterio, definitely. Punisher, of course. You know, when you're like... Kraven. 10, 11...
JVL00:10:40No, Kraven the Hunter? You loved Kraven the Hunter, didn't you? Two-fly boy.
Vic00:10:43Two-fly... The fur? A lot of fur. Fur collars and bear chests. The fur collar, no. There's, you know... I mean, you know, I'm not into fur. But the... I thought the Punisher was the best. There's nothing super about him, obviously. He was just a man who was wronged, and he was really good with guns. And so I created villains that were very much knockoffs of the Punisher, like playing the Marvel role-playing... TSR created the Marvel game. I remember that! You have? I spent more time on that than I did Dungey D. I never did much D&D. I preferred the DC role-playing game myself as a kid.
JVL00:11:16So who were you? Give me a name. Did you come up with names? I don't... Come up with names for your... Don't tell me you don't remember. This is a lie.
Vic00:11:23His weapon... This is not appropriate. But it's... His weapon was an RPG. Because I think I probably saw Red Dawn... Can we fire it once? Yes, that's a little problematic. You gotta reload it. Okay.
JVL00:11:35You? Favorite Spidey villain? Doc Ock. Yeah, he's great. I never... The Green Goblin never, ever did it for me.
Vic00:11:44And I don't know why. This is like not liking the Joker or something. No, I understand. And I also had one of those little Marvel booklets. It's like a comic booklet. And it was a fantastic Spider-Man. It was a Spider-Man one that was in color. And it was Spider-Man versus the three villains. And it was like Mysterio, Scorpion, and maybe the Green Goblin. All they got all like... The Sinister Six? Something like that. Maybe it was. But I don't remember three of them.
JVL00:12:07The Terrible Three.
Vic00:12:08It was like the Terrible Three. Yeah.
JVL00:12:09Sonny, favorite Spider-Man villain?
Sonny00:12:11Go. I mean, I'm a slightly later generation, so I'm Venom and Carnage. And I actually also really liked the Hobgoblin. The Green Goblin, I was never that into, but the Hobgoblin, for some reason... Oh, the Hobgoblin, who's white-faced. Yeah, he was basically the Green Goblin, except he had a different color scheme. Orange? He was like orange and white. And for a while, he was like an actual demon. But he was mostly just a... He was like a contract killer. And I really liked that whole design. I don't know why.
Vic00:12:39Very nice. My sister actually has... She may have one of the earliest comics that I know of that features Rhino. Remember Rhino? Rhino.
JVL00:12:48Who wins, Rhino versus Juggernaut? Juggernaut. Juggernaut, obviously. Rhino is a poor man's Juggernaut. But I like that. So this is... Because one of the nice things about Spider-Man's universe is that all of the villains are appropriately powered in relation to Spider-Man. Like, everything is really... There's never... The fate of the world is never in... It's always just somebody's trying to steal something.
Vic00:13:08I totally forgot this and think I can get this into the micro. My favorite Spider-Man... I can't believe I forgot this, is Electro.
Sonny00:13:14Oh, Electro. That's right.
Vic00:13:15You went as Electro for Halloween once, didn't you? I wanted to. I never...
Sonny00:13:18The original Electro with, like, the lightning bolt mask. Yes. That's what I mean. Not the dumb, ultimate Spider-Man. No. The one where he's, like, he's got a blue head. No, no, no.
Vic00:13:27With the crazy... It looks like a Mardi Gras parade outfit. Okay.
JVL00:13:31What was it about Electro that you liked? Was that from the Spider-Man cartoon?
Vic00:13:35Yeah, and the comics, too.
JVL00:13:36You liked his voice? Didn't he have, like, a sort of whiny, bitchy voice? Whiny voice.
Vic00:13:39It was probably the same guy who did...
JVL00:13:40He sounded like Starscream.
Vic00:13:42Same guy. No, Cobra Commander is the same voice as Starscream. Same voice as Electro. This is the geekiest episode we've done in a very long time. Good episode.
Sonny00:13:50This is a good episode. Good show, guys. All right. I'm sure it's fine.
?00:13:55© transcript Emily Beynon
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