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#115. The Substandard on Isle of Dogs, Wes Anderson, and Baseball!
Listen to this episode ↗on Substack, where the show lives now
Dudes Chatting — Wes Anderson's filmography: JVL argues The Royal Tenenbaums is a near-perfect film and everything after it a disappointment; Sonny traces the quality drop to Anderson losing Owen Wilson as co-writer. Both agree Moonrise Kingdom doesn't work. Sonny defends The Grand Budapest Hotel and Isle of Dogs, while JVL remains skeptical. They rank Anderson's films and leading players. The how-was-your-weekend segment features JVL's story of taking his son Cody to a minor-league game for a bat birthday promotion, and Sonny's rewatch of Frozen — he notes Elsa maps neatly onto Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen.
Reviews: Gene (Vic) reviews Isle of Dogs — four stars, with dog puns. Sonny reviews Isle of Dogs — beautiful stop-motion, rewarding for Anderson fans, and he reads the film as a genocide allegory ("Wes Anderson's Shoah"), though he acknowledges the cultural-appropriation controversy around its Japanese setting. Sonny also reviews A Quiet Place — genuinely good as a film and a textbook example of the efficient Blumhouse production model; he praises the decision to withhold backstory entirely.
Box Office: A Quiet Place opens at #1 with $50M; Ready Player One drops to #2 with $25M (~40% fall); Blockers is #3; Isle of Dogs sits at #10.
Spirit of the Week is Johnnie Walker Black, which Vic forgot to mention until the very end of the episode.
Full transcript
Sonny00:00:00The crickets and the rust beetles scuttled among the nettles of the sage thicket. "Vamonos, amigos," he whispered, and threw the busted leather flint-crawl over the loose weave of the saddle-cock. And they rode on in the friskelating dusklight.
Guest00:00:14Eli was an assistant professor of English literature at Brooks College. The recent publication of his second novel had earned him a sudden, unexpected literary celebrity.
Sonny00:00:24Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is... Maybe he didn't? Let me ask you something. Why would a review make the point of saying someone's not a genius? You think I'm especially not a genius? I don't... You didn't even have to think about it, did you?
Vic00:00:51Hello, and welcome to another edition of The Substandard, sponsored by the Black Tux. I'm Victor Matus along with Sonny Bunch and Jonathan V. Last. I'd like to remind you The Substandard is available on iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. Just look at our podcast and search for "substandard." You'll easily find us. Please subscribe, tell your friends, and leave a review. Gentlemen, how are we today, Thursday? JVL.
JVL00:01:16I am okay. So I don't often succeed at parenting. What? All that much. But I had a win of epic proportions this week. Oh, let's hear it. Would you like to hear it? Please, please. Can I tell a story? Story time? So my oldest kid turned 10, and four days before that my second oldest turned 8. And they are both baseball crazy. And so we got them as their big birthday present season tickets to the minor league ballpark.
Vic00:01:53Hey, the Potomac Nationals. The Potomac Nationals.
JVL00:01:56The mighty Potomac Nationals. Terrific. Which is the most fun I ever have. I mean, I don't know why anybody goes to Major League Baseball, to be honest. So Monday night, which was my oldest kid's actual birthday, the Nationals were home, the Potomac Nationals, and he wanted to go see them. And we sat through the Saturday game when it was 35 degrees. All nine innings. Dedication. Four hours from first pitch to the final out. You know why it was so long? Because the pitchers literally couldn't grip the ball. They were like 15 walks. It's so cold. Because they just couldn't. Yeah. No feeling in their fingers. So he says, "Dad, we got to go. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Let's go. Let's go." And I was like, "You sure you don't want to stay home and watch the two towers? It's 40 degrees out."
Vic00:02:45And he's like, "No, no.
JVL00:02:46We got to go to my baseball and my birthday." Michael would watch two towers in a heartbeat. So we went. It was 40 degrees as opposed to 35. A balmy 40. And in the third inning, it started raining. Ooh. Lovely. It was a gentle, sleet-like rain from the third inning all the way through the end
Vic00:03:00of the game. Did you bring a poncho? Because usually you see- It wasn't that heavy. Okay.
JVL00:03:05It was more like mist and sleet than light sleet than rain. So we're sitting there, and this is a Monday night game at 40 degrees. It was already a very sparse crowd. We have fantastic seats. We're in the front row field box by first base, so essentially as close as you can get. We're about 20 feet away from first base. So you can hear the first base coach talking to the first baseman and the players chit-chatting
Sonny00:03:29with each other. Do you have assigned seats at the- Yeah. Okay.
JVL00:03:33These are actual seats. It's not like a bench. No, no, no. These are actual seats. And by the eighth inning, we did a quick count, and there were 16 people in the stands.
Sonny00:03:43Sixteen. So there were more baseball players than there were- Many more. Many more baseball players than there were people there.
Vic00:03:50Go ahead. Question. Do you fear when you're sitting there? Particularly in your seats, a foul ball, a line drive going straight at you.
JVL00:04:01Well, I don't fear it, because I'm not an old lady. Okay. I would fear it. But you keep your head on a swivel. Keep your head on a swivel. And in fact, I would never let Cody sit in these seats. It was a big deal when we moved back from up behind the protective netting down to these seats, and I waited until he was capable enough to handle himself. So he sits there with a glove, and he is skilled enough- Just in case. Do you take a glove? Of course. Of course I take a glove. What are you talking about?
Sonny00:04:25There's some debate in the baseball fan community about more the aesthetics than anything else of a grown man taking a glove to a baseball game.
JVL00:04:36In these seats, you're crazy not to have a glove, because balls come screaming at you all the time. So in about the fifth inning, Cody gets a foul ball, because of course he does. Oh! We get foul balls every single time.
Vic00:04:45So he says to me, "Dad, this is my 22nd foul ball." My gosh.
JVL00:04:50"What are you going to do with it?" "I'm going to put it in the chest with all the others." He's just hoarding them. He's got a big box of balls. Yeah, a big box of balls that he's gotten from the Carolina ... Anyway, in the eighth inning, after the first out in the top of the eighth, the Peanats' first baseman, Ian Sagdahl, turns over and looks at Cody, and he says, "Hey, stick around and come over to the dugout after the game." Oh my gosh. Oh man. It does not get better. So we stay through the end of the game, and the Peanats win 9-5, and the minute the game's over, both teams go running for their dugouts because it's really cold and kind of miserable. And as we are making our way over towards the dugout, Ian Sagdahl comes out with one of his bats, and hands it to Cody, and says, "Hey, thanks so much for sticking through the whole game. You are a real trooper."
Sonny00:05:39Look at that. Look at that.
Vic00:05:41Was your daughter there too?
JVL00:05:42She did not come, because this was a too cold thing. She would have been ... My daughter is not a hardy soul.
Vic00:05:50And yet, when you came home, and when your son came home with the bat, what was her reaction? She was dead asleep.
JVL00:05:55It was 11 o'clock on a Monday night. Yeah. But I would say ... And there was no like, "Hey, because it's your birthday." He had no idea. Yeah. And Cody was- Just for being a good fan. ... over the ... He could not ... But he was like, "This is his bat.
Vic00:06:08There's pine tar on it."
JVL00:06:11It blew his mind. I thought to myself- That's nice. "I just gave my kid a birthday that he will never forget." That's nice. That's great. He'll get better his day. How was your weekend, Sonny? I shined my shoes.
Vic00:06:21Hey! Tell us, how was that experience like? Was it zen-like?
Sonny00:06:26I'm getting better at it. The first ... I shined two pairs of shoes the first time, and it was a solid hour and a half ordeal, because I was trying to figure out how to do all the things right.
JVL00:06:38You had too much time on your hands. I was doing all the things ...
Sonny00:06:40So to speak. Well, it's funny. I do this while I watch The Walking Dead. I just let The Walking Dead build up, and then I can zone out of the TV show and focus on the shoes, but also keep up ... But this time, much, much quicker, like about 60 minutes, and we're getting it down. We're getting it down. Spit shines, Sonny. But more seriously, I watched Frozen again this weekend, because that's the cycle of my life that we're in. Welcome. Only once? Welcome. It's just ... We have a very strict rule. Only one movie ... Per day?
JVL00:07:14Per weekend. Per weekend? Per weekend. You are on Rotten Tomatoes as a film critic? Well, she is going to learn that one day. I don't think she's aware yet. Because it seems to me a little rich for the Rotten Tomatoes certified film critic to tell his daughter, "Only one movie a weekend."
Sonny00:07:28Well, I understand how much trash there is out there. I know I need to keep her safe from the world. Protect her critical faculties. But we watched Frozen again this weekend, and it occurred to me while we were watching it that Elsa is basically just Dr. Manhattan, right? Abusive parents. No. Throws an emotional fit and runs away from everyone. Builds a giant glass castle out in the wilderness. Brings things to life. And it's a little bit happier at the end. It's a little bit happier at the end, but like... Solitude. She's basically the same.
JVL00:08:02She's basically the same. Same, same. No. I disagree because Dr. Manhattan is unique. He's the only powered person. And in the Frozen world, everybody's got powers. The trolls have powers. There's no other Ice Queen. There's no Ice Queen. I would say this is an imperfect analogy. The world of Frozen is a world of magic, where magic is just sort of assumed to be part of...
Sonny00:08:23But is magic really just assumed? I think people are pretty freaked out when they see her. They're scared.
JVL00:08:28And the king has to hide her away. Well, he has to hide her away. But on the other hand, he says, "Oh, this is magic." If it's just a world of magic... Which kind of magic is it?
Sonny00:08:36But if it's just a world of magic, then why couldn't she just be the magic queen?
JVL00:08:39You've got a walking snowman. You've got creatures who were... No, she brings...
Sonny00:08:43Which, again, she brings to life, like Dr. Manhattan, who's like, "I'm tired of these people. I want to go build magic snowmen on Mars."
Vic00:08:49Sorcery! I think that's what the guy says, right?
JVL00:08:52Yeah, I find it an imperfect analogy. But she's a mutant, clearly. She's a mutant. Somebody like Honest Trailers did a very funny...
Sonny00:09:00She's the early version of Emma Frost.
JVL00:09:02Or, I guess, Bobby Drake. No, but the real question is, why won't they just send her to Professor Xavier's school for gifted children? I mean, this is where Elsa truly belongs.
Sonny00:09:13My favorite character in that movie is the Minnesota nice store clerk, by the way. Oh, yes! The one who... Olaf? No, no, no. He runs the sporting goods.
Vic00:09:23The store.
Sonny00:09:25No, what's his last name? Sven is the... I can't remember. I don't know. I'll remember after the 700th time I see this movie. He very much reminds me of my brother-in-law up in Jersey, my Dutch brother-in-law. Who the ice salesman accused of being a crook because he believes in... Yeah. Because he believes in supply and demand. Yes! And he's like, "What did you say?"
JVL00:09:47So you were not a little bit off-put by the subtle gay marriage stuff? There's a family in there!
Sonny00:09:54It was a family! It was his family! His family.
JVL00:09:58This is the type of... I mean, I'm half serious. But this is the type of proselytization that is done specifically so they can have plausible deniability. They don't want to actually say. But you look at the composition of the family. There is another man who is... his junior a little bit, but not by much. Clue, too old to be a kid, and there's no wife. Ridiculous. This is ridiculous. No, but this is the clear intent of it.
Sonny00:10:24I feel like they would have made a big deal out of this. Like they made out of the fake gay character in Beauty and the Beast.
Vic00:10:30I was going to say, in Finding Dory... This is pre-Beauty and the Beast. Remember in Finding Dory, the lesbian couple, there was supposed to be two women with a baby. Oh yeah, in the background. Yeah, with the octopus scene. It's getting very close to pop culture. Vic, how was your weekend? My weekend was good. I took my kids to a Chinese restaurant. That's what I did. A buffet? No, you know that buffet at Hunan Gate? I should have taken them to the one. You should have taken them there. I'm just an editor. I'm taking them to the one on Bailey's. That's where you went. Yes. No, we went to the one in Ballston, and the buffet is only available at lunch. But Kate's not a fan of Chinese food. She likes Vietnamese, and she likes Thai and Indian, but she doesn't like Chinese food.
Sonny00:11:10That's very interesting.
Vic00:11:11It is this weird allegation that it's greasy and unhealthy. I don't know where that comes from. But she was going out to get together with old college housemates for dinner. So I said, "I'll watch the kids, and come on, let's do a proper Chinese restaurant." I mean, she grew up in Connecticut. Her parents did not go to Chinese restaurants. And I knew this because when we started dating, we went to one, and we go to the restaurant, and she opens the menu and just got overwhelmed. Like, she didn't know what to do. Like, where do you begin? And I'm like, "It's very easy. You pick one vegetable, you pick a beef, you pick this, you pick that. You're done." You know?
Sonny00:11:43You just go to the buffet where it's all there in a trough. Or you go to the buffet. You get it, and you put it on your plate.
Vic00:11:48We need more of that. So I said, "These kids need to learn." We had little bits of jasmine tea. We got the roast pork spare ribs, fried rice, which is just a basic staple, and sweet and sour chicken. Very easy, simple. They loved it. And of course, their favorite part was the fortune cookies. So that is what I did. Do your kids eat the cookies themselves? Oh, yes. Or do they just crack them to get the fortunes? They do the whole thing. Did you teach them the in-bed thing from Wayne's World? Oh, no. I forgot. No, no, I didn't do that one. Not yet. And so that was that. But that was the weekend, and I'm feeling a little bit hungover today, whatever day this is, because— Thursday. It's Thursday. Two nights ago— Two nights. That's a long hangover. I was at District Distilling with my good friend, restaurant publicist Heather Freeman, who invited me to dinner there. It is the only distillery restaurant in the district. Where is this? This is 14 and U. Okay, yeah. You gotta check it out. And here's the thing. They're not actually just bottling there, and there's a pot still. They have column stills there. They're actually fermenting there. So I came home smelling like mash and yeast and things. So they're really making their own vodka and gin there and rum there. And they also do whiskey as well. And they made me sample like eight different spirits. And the food was actually lovely. So anyway, that's what I did. It was a lot of fun. So thank you. And a special thank you to Owen Connors, originally from Waterford, Ireland. Oh, is this another commercial? No, no, no, but it is kind of, sort of. Anyway, Owen is the district distilling president. I just want to thank him for his hospitality.
Sonny00:13:27It is pretty clear that the flax have picked out the one person who is willing to do anything for free food or drink. I don't know if you know this.
Vic00:13:38I stand at the-- How do you have time to do these things? I stand--well, we only have two kids. And I stand at the corner of Wilson Northland with a sign that said, "Free plugs for food." I do. And spirits. Anyway, it was a lovely dinner. We sat at a corner table for, you know, a little quiet place for conversation. Speaking of a quiet place...
JVL00:13:58The best in the business.
Vic00:14:00A quiet place took the top spot at the box office with $50 million, followed by Ready Player One with $25 million, which was kind of a 50% drop, and Blockers in third place with $21 million. Box office questions. Question number one. How do we explain a quiet place? Is it a horror genre thing like Annabelle? Everyone loves horror. Or is it a really good and original movie? And people are yearning for that. Sonny, you reviewed A Quiet Place for the Beacon.
Sonny00:14:30Uh, it's both. I mean, every year--we've talked about this before on the show--every year, there's a small-budget horror film that comes out of nowhere. It comes out of nowhere and blows up at the box office. Last year, we had three or four of them. Get Out, right? Last year was--in the first couple months of the year, you had Get Out and Split, both of which grossed about $170, $180 million domestic, something like that. And then later in the year, you had It, which grossed-- Oh, right, of course. It's like the third-highest R-rated-- third-highest grossing R-rated film of all time or something. You know, but that's another movie that--that movie is a-- it was a little bit different because it is based on a preexisting property. It--and it is--so it's slightly different, but it's very much in that vein of R-rated cheap. It was a $30 million movie, $40 million movie, something like that, that made a giant, enormous amount of money. And as JBL hinted on the mini-episode that we recorded yesterday-- I can't even remember that. Neither can I. We are entering a world in which the only real, sure thing, propositions are Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, Star Wars movies, I guess, and $5 to $20 million horror films. I mean, and the first two--the first two because they make tons of money no matter what. I mean, the second one because they-- even if they flop, you don't lose that much money, but they don't usually flop, they usually at least break even, and sometimes you get a giant, enormous hit. I mean, the return on investment on it is just enormous. I can't even--I can't even fathom it. But, you know, this is a--this is-- so A Quiet Place itself is--it's good. I like it a lot. And it's clever, and it's--it had a really great series of trailers that kind of, like, got at the kind of high-concept nature of it.
Vic00:16:23Does it take place in the future or now?
Sonny00:16:24It takes place basically now, like, in the near--in the very near future. But essentially, you know, the--what has happened is aliens have come to Earth, and they are--they hunt people by sound, and if you talk, you die, and, like, so it's all about, like, you have to be really, really quiet. And this--it's--the family is very quiet, but, uh-- Not--not physical sound, but voice sound, vocal.
JVL00:16:45Well, all sounds. I mean, they just--any sounds draws the-- Question. Terrible. Yes. This is one of those stories where no backstory is given about the aliens. Right. No backstory. Do you guys find that frustrating? No. In--not in this specific--I mean, as a general matter, whenever you have vaguely post-apocalyptic-type things, like The Road, where you don't actually know what happened, whenever I am watching a movie like that, I am always intensely interested, "Well, how did we get here?" Right. That's what I care about more than anything else. And do you feel--
Vic00:17:16I care about the--to distract-- Do you feel deprived in a way, like, "I wish they told me--" Yes, because I am more interested in that story,
JVL00:17:22almost--in almost--I'm sure maybe in this case, I would not be--than I am in the story being told. And I feel like I can't fully appreciate the story being told until I know how we got here. 'Cause I have so many questions. Is this, like-- I want world-building. You want world--
Vic00:17:35Yes. Give me the backstory. Is this John Krasinski's first commercial-- real commercial success as a movie?
Sonny00:17:40He's done a bunch of movies now. As an actor--yeah, probably as an actor and as a director. This is his third movie. This is the third movie that he's directed. 13 Hours, right? He was in--yeah, 13 Hours. 13 Hours was--did not do well at the box office. Oh. You look at the numbers. It did not do particularly well.
JVL00:17:57I thought it was an okay flick.
Sonny00:17:58It's good. I think it's actually good. But I'm also a sucker for Michael Bay, so I'm biased. The auteur of awesome. The auteur of awesome. To answer your question, JBL, I--here is what I dislike more than that, is gobs and gobs of exposition about, "They came here and now they're gonna--" I don't need all that. I just--it's the world. This is the world in which we've been dropped. And this is, I think, a more successful way of making a movie in this day and age where--look, this is a very brief, very brisk 95 minutes. I don't need--I don't really like beginning. I don't like big two and a half hour movies anymore. I don't--that's not what I--if I want to watch a longer story, I'll watch TV. And it's--
JVL00:18:42I love seeing something that says, "Hour 40." Ooh, I'm gonna see that. Yeah, 100 minutes. That's great. Perfect. Plus, now they can do a prequel, A Quiet Beginning. Yes. Where they tell how the monsters came to Earth in the first place.
Sonny00:18:52Exactly. And it turns out it's a Cloverfield movie. It's part of the Cloverfield-- A Quiet Cloverfield. It's part of the Cloverfield Extended Universe.
JVL00:18:59Isn't there a Cloverfield universe happening, basically? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sonny00:19:02So, like--so, there was actually a story about this, about how the guys who--they wrote this script, the original screenwriters wrote this script, and they were shopping it around, and, like, Bad Robot was interested in making it a Cloverfield movie for a while, and the guys were like, "Eh," they decided not to do it. But, like, I really do think there is something to be said for the, like, reductio ad absurdum that is the Cloverfield model of filmmaking, where you take a script and you're like, "Well, this could maybe have monsters in it," and then you slap Cloverfield on it, and you put--make it part of this expanded universe, and now, like, "Oh, look, brand awareness!" "This is Cloverfield! Cloverfield movie!"
JVL00:19:38I kind of like it just for the way it taunts, like, Universal in the dark, you know, where you're like, "Yeah!" You think it's so easy to build an extended universe, like your Tom Cruise and Russell Crowe project. That was terrible. Oh, man. Remember the mummy? Yeah. Remember-- Remember-- The attempted universe. Remember-- And they actually start it with Dark Universe. Oh, yeah. And they say it is an explicit, "Here's a new extended universe we're making for
Vic00:20:02you." Can't wait for that. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Yeah. James the beginning. Remember-- Remo Williams.
Sonny00:20:09Very good. Very good.
JVL00:20:11Remember Chav King Arthur?
Vic00:20:12God, the movie was so good. Who is Remo Williams? Was that Fred Ward? Was Fred Ward Remo-- No.
JVL00:20:17Not to be confused with Buckaroo Bonsai. He was this guy who was like a dime store Charles Bronson. Oh. I'll go--
Vic00:20:22I'll effort that when you guys talk. Okay. Here's another question for you, Sonny. "Blockers. Is this John Cena's Kindergarten Cop moment?"
Sonny00:20:28No. Well, no, because he's always been better as a comedian. I mean, he's like-- he was in the Amy Schumer movies. And-- Oh, that's-- Yeah, yeah. He's very good. He's very good. He has like a comic sensibility that is-- He strikes me as very good at this sort of thing. I refuse to see that movie on general principle because of the dumb name and the weird games that they're trying to play with it. It's supposed to be cock blockers, but you can't call a movie cock blockers. Why not? Because I don't-- prudes in this country, man. Prudes. Do you like Ike Barinholtz? I do like Ike Barinholtz. Yeah. He's actually my favorite thing in Suicide Squad. Oh. He has like a bit part in Suicide Squad. He's very good. He's very good. That Neighbors movie.
Vic00:21:11In the Neighbors movies.
Sonny00:21:12So JVL, you were saying?
JVL00:21:13Fred Ward. You're right. It's Fred Ward. Yep. Rima Williams, The Adventure Begins.
Vic00:21:18And ends. And last question. And ends. Last question. Ready Player One, is it in good shape or in bad shape?
Sonny00:21:24It dropped about 40% in the second weekend. Okay. You said 50%. I said 50%. It was closer to 40%. Okay. All right.
JVL00:21:32That's good shape, right? That's good shape.
Sonny00:21:34I mean, it's good shape. It's good shape compared to the previous weekend, but I mean, look, this movie is gonna gross about $200 million domestic, it'll probably gross $400 million overseas. If it makes about $600 million, that's probably about its break even. Which is good, I guess. You had a lot of people trying to spin its opening weekend numbers as a giant success for Steven Spielberg, and not really. I mean, it is a movie that has done as well as it needed to, to not be a disaster. Or to not be a flop, to not be a money loser. And I think it'll probably do well on home video, but I don't know if people buy home videos anymore. So, yeah. Oh, man, the numbers on home videos, I was looking at some of the sales figures from the top selling Blu-rays of 2000, even like 2012, 2013 compared to today.
JVL00:22:28Used to be able to do a second opening weekend.
Sonny00:22:30I mean, the 80% drops. Wow. Just nobody buys tickets. Just nobody buys home video anymore.
Vic00:22:37Okay. All the way down in 10th place was Isle of Dogs, with 4.6 million for a three-week total. But it was only a three-week total of 12 million, but it was only in a handful of theaters. Yes, it's expanding now. Okay. You saw it, Sonny. I saw it. JVL, did you see it? Diamond Hard Pass.
?00:22:57Wow.
Vic00:22:58Well, I saw it, so three of us saw it. Oh!
JVL00:23:03Yay!
Sonny00:23:04Get out of the chair! Get out of the chair, Vic.
Vic00:23:09Isle of Dogs is about a boy in Japan who flies a plane zeroing in on an island landfill to look for his canine spot. Talk about a suicide mission. But seriously, this is no Shaggy Dog story. The boy is hounded by his uncle, who had kept him on a short leash. Luckily, the kid is joined by a great friend. A group of dogs, roving the countryside, looking for his best friend. It's a sort of stop-motion-style Saving Private Ryan, or a doggy-style Saving Private Ryan, really. Speaking of which, there's a come-from-behind ending that will give you pause. I give Isle of Dogs four stars. You're going to lap it up.
?00:24:00Okay.
Vic00:24:01Bye, Gene. Bye. You know what? This is funny. Gene's gone. Thank you, Bruce.
JVL00:24:07You know, dogs ... I hate to say it. I like to think that I know you pretty well, and that I can often see your moves coming. I was taken entirely by surprise by that.
Vic00:24:17Okay.
JVL00:24:18I never imagined you'd go there.
Vic00:24:20You'd never go there? I tried every which way to get that in there. Actual Gene review, by the way. Yes. An actual Gene review, it reminded me of ... When Gene Shalit reviewed Bruce Almighty, right? And there was this dog, and it was a very well-trained dog that does these different things. It learns to pee in the bathroom, the whole thing. Shalit loved that so much that in the review, he says, "Give that dog an Oscar, Meyer." He literally said that. He literally said that, so I love the guy.
Sonny00:24:49Sonny, how about a big boy review? Well, I saw it like a month ago now, so it's kind of dimmed in my memory. Just try. But it is a Wes Anderson movie, and if you like Wes Anderson movies, you will like this movie. I am a big Wes Anderson fan. I like his whole symmetrical style, and kind of twee verbiage, and obsessively constructed scenes, scene dressings, and that sort of thing. So the movie is about, as Gene said, it's about a boy who wants to find his dog who has been exiled to an aisle of trash. The evil Mayor Kobayashi has exiled all dogs from the kingdom of Negan. - Kobayashi is the real hero. - No, but this is why I wanted you to see it. This is why I wanted you to see it, because you would have constructed the perfect Kobayashi is the real hero of "Isle of Dogs." And anyway, it is about the dogs trying to figure out how to get home to their masters, and it's about kids who want to be reunited with their dogs. It's very cute and loving and all that, but it's also very adult and very kind of stylish. - Doggy-stylish? - Doggy-stylish, and if you, again, if you like the Wes Anderson thing, but specifically if you like the Fantastic Mr. Fox, which I love, I think is great, and I love the whole stop motion aesthetic, I find myself kind of losing myself in the screen, watching every shot and imagining, "Oh my God, it must have taken literally 10 hours to do that six seconds of animation." - It's pleasing to the eyes. - It's pleasing to the eyes. - It's amusingly complicated. This is a deeply problematic film, as it appropriates so much Japanese culture, but that just improved the experience for me, the reactionary that I am, and I loved it. I loved it. I hope a lot of people go see it when it opens wider, yeah, so that's...
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Sonny00:29:00JVL, you did not see the movie. I understand that. But can I ask a question? Sure. Question. Was the "Hesitance" solely dog related? No. Second question: Why do you hate good things, like Wes Anderson?
JVL00:29:20So I spent a lot of time thinking about this, because I don't know that I ... I would not say that I hate Wes Anderson. I view "The Royal Tenenbaums" as a perfect movie, and one of my top ten movies, perhaps ever. Certainly in the last 20 years, but I could maybe go ever. I love that movie like I can't even tell you. It's so great. But unlike many directors ... so Wes Anderson has one speed, basically, which is twee. And he perfected it. And if that's all you've got, and you've done the perfect thing ... there is no improving upon that. Everything else he does is a less good version of "The Royal Tenenbaums." So why bother with them? I mean, isn't that ... like Steven Spielberg has different stories to tell, different styles. You could say ... I mean, Stanley Kubrick had different things going on. This is a ... so this is not to say I hate him, but every ... I view every other Wes Anderson movie I've ever seen as a disappointment, because "The Royal Tenenbaums" is perfect. Now maybe that's not fair to him, maybe that's the wrong way. It's the wrong way of looking at it. And I understand there are different people who disagree, and there are ... Steve Hayes is a bottle rocket partisan. Steve Hayes is ... Matt Labash is a Rushmore partisan. I understand that.
Sonny00:30:47Steve Hayes needs to stay in his lane. That's what the kids say. He sticks to things he knows, like politics and ...
JVL00:30:54I don't know if there's anybody who would say he's a life aquatic partisan. Oh, my wife.
Sonny00:30:59My wife, her favorite is "The Life Aquatic," because she loves the David Bowie songs in Portuguese. Which are great. Which are great. I have them on my phone. So here, I understand and largely agree with what you have said, that Rushmore is ... or Royal Tenenbaums is basically a perfect movie, and that it is the perfect encapsulation of his twee sensibility and style and all that. But more than that, I don't mean to reduce it to just its perfect twee. I mean it is perfect. It is a perfect character piece, a perfect play, a perfect story, perfect ideas. Everything about it is perfect. He's great. My big Wes Anderson thought is one that I'm cribbing from somebody else, maybe even you, which is that once he stopped writing with Owen Wilson, his career kind of ... So if you look back at his career, his first three movies, Bottle Rocket, Rushmore, and Royal Tenenbaums were all co-written with Owen Wilson. That was me. Owen Wilson is a vastly underrated writer. And probably a vastly underrated actor as well. He's a vastly underrated everything. He's just vastly underrated. And after he stopped working with Owen Wilson, I think he kind of got trapped in his own head a little bit. So through the rest of his body of work, he's largely working with Roman Coppola and some Jason Schwartzman in there as well.
Vic00:32:29Is that Sofia's brother?
Sonny00:32:30Yes. Yes.
Vic00:32:32I believe so. As is Jason Schwartzman or no? No.
JVL00:32:35Jason Schwartzman's a cousin. He's a Coppola, but he's a cousin.
Vic00:32:37Schwartzman is a Coppola.
Sonny00:32:38He's just kind of on the... He's like Nick Cage. He's the... Yes. Right. Got it. I will say, I do think that his last two movies, Grand Budapest Hotel and Isle of Dogs, are very interesting for the ways in which they take the kind of twee sensibility and style and have... I forget who said this, maybe it was Armand White, maybe it was somebody else, but they basically described the Grand Budapest Hotel as Wes Anderson discovers evil, which is actually a very kind of interesting and provocative way of putting the Grand Budapest Hotel, which is a fascinating movie about, essentially, Nazism. It's like Nazis come to Wes Andersonville. And it is fascinating and it's really a terrific movie. I love it. I think it's actually great. I don't think it's as good as The Royal Tenenbaums, because that is, again, a perfect movie. But it's very good. And Isle of Dogs is kind of in that same vein. I mean, if Grand Budapest Hotel is about the beginning of World War II and the rise of fascism and how people who just want to go along to get along kind of get wrapped up in that, Isle of Dogs is very much about genocide. I mean, it is literally about a concentration camp, just one filled with dogs, and extermination. I mean, this is kind of the logical endpoint of where he started at Grand Budapest Hotel. I understand what you're saying. Wes Anderson's Shoah. Basically. Yes. Which is with all... But with claymation dogs.
Vic00:34:11Right. No, I mean, he...
Sonny00:34:13Are they clay? They're stop motion. Stop motion. Yeah. I wonder what they are. Not claymation. It's not, you know. You know what I'm saying. Whatever. Yes. But I do think... So I totally understand what you're saying. Have you seen Grand Budapest Hotel? I have not. You should. You should. You should. It's great. It's great. It's great. I checked out after Moonrise Kingdom. I'm a big fan of his... Please. A lot of people don't feel that way. Is that right? No. People love it. Moonrise Kingdom is a love. Somebody on Twitter mentioned that. Moonrise Kingdom came up on our tweets as something that's an awful movie. Moonrise Kingdom is 96% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. Wow. It was a box office success. People love that movie, and I despise it. I think it is a spice. When people say that Wes Anderson is playing with dollhouses, and when they say he is just a finicky stylist who has nothing underneath the surface... Moonrise Kingdom is the movie that... The example.
JVL00:35:08Par excellence.
Sonny00:35:09It is a parody of Wes Anderson made by Wes Anderson. I hate that movie, and I think it was bad for him, and I'm glad that he got away from that sort of thing. I'm glad he has moved off, and it also squicks me out. The whole relationship between the two kids, and that weird dancing in their underwear on the beach. I was like, "This is gross pedo stuff. I'm not cool with this." But I think he has recovered since then. I think Grand Budapest Hotel is great. I think Isle of Dogs is great, and I am very curious to see what he does next.
JVL00:35:48Again, I don't want to come across as anti-Anderson because I am not, but this is a guy who has, over the course of 24 years, directed nine movies, incredibly anemic output. When you look at his IMDb page, his credits are padded out with things like his American Express commercial, which is a two-minute and 20-second video short. I saw that at the IMDb.
Vic00:36:12It came up there.
JVL00:36:13I got to say, I remember the American Express commercial fondly. I went back and I rewatched it because it's two minutes and 20 seconds, and I was able to find that time. I found that so off-putting. I did not see it as gentle parody of oneself. It almost suggested to me that this is a guy. Who made a great movie almost by accident because he's so wrapped up in his own psychoses about filmmaking that he's making choices not with intent and deliberation, but just to make those choices because that's his thing. Yeah.
Sonny00:36:50I don't think he does self-parody. I think he is self-aware to an extent, but I don't think he does self-parody. I think this is just what he is. What do we think about that?
JVL00:37:03No? Yeah. Yeah? Stanley Kubrick would not have made that American Express commercial.
Sonny00:37:09Stanley Kubrick would not have made that American Express commercial, but he also made six different genres of Stanley Kubrick films that are all very explicitly Stanley Kubrick films. It will be interesting to see if Wes Anderson ever does make a horror film. The actual parody, the SNL where Edward Norton is- Starring in what is A Coterie of Midnight Intruders, a Wes Anderson horror film, which is very funny and perfect, but I don't ... It doesn't bother me that much, because I like the thing that he's doing.
Vic00:37:50Yes. I think you should see Grand Budapest Hotel. I liked it a lot, and my wife liked it. She lived a year in Slovakia, I lived a year in Vienna. I thought it captured the essence of Central Europe, East Europe so well. And the feel of it, as a very distinct, not Western European, but rather a Central Eastern European feel, although I think they did film it in an abandoned German department store, but it just has that feel. I thought it was excellent, and it was ... Ray Fiennes is just great, so ... Yes. Okay. Has this stuff evolved, though? I mean, if you watch ... I haven't seen Bottle Rocket. I mean, is it the same thing? Or does it just continue to get more and more, then you get Rushmore, and then he hits, as you would say, JVL, his apex sort of with Tenenbaums.
JVL00:38:37Bottle Rocket is a much more fast and loose improvisational kind of thing. I mean, you get the sense ... I don't know if it was improvised or not, but ... You get the sense it was made quickly. Quickly and so meandering, certainly not written particularly sharply.
Sonny00:38:52It has some great lines, but it is not tight. No. It is not a tight thing. Which is interesting, because it's only about 100 minutes. It's a short movie, and you could cut another 30 minutes out of it easily. Well, the whole second act ... Well, that movie has an interesting story. I mean, it was originally a Sundance short. The first act of Bottle Rocket was basically a Sundance short, and Sundance accepted it, and he received much praise and got money to make a full film, and basically took the short and then added two more acts, and when he submitted the full-length feature to Sundance, it was rejected, which is very interesting. But it is a movie that has grown in stature. I know it is Martin Scorsese's favorite. A Wes Anderson film.
JVL00:39:35Really? Okay.
Sonny00:39:37That's very interesting. But it is not mine, and I don't think it works because I think that whole second act kind of just where it goes off the rails.
JVL00:39:49So if I just briefly, as a single tiny example of ... I said intentionality. Is he just doing things to be Wes Anderson, or is he doing them with intention? One of the things I love about Royal Tenenbaums is that I believe in that. That movie, whether by accident or forethought, all of those little things actually bear on the character. So to take one tiny miniature example, towards the opening of the film, when Royal Tenenbaum is sitting with his three children to tell them that he is separating from his wife and is leaving the house. As he is doing this, Pagoda, his servant, brings him a martini. That's not just a weird tweet thing. It tells you quite a lot about Royal, like it is a character revealing thing where you're known and not told, and it's a Wes Anderson thing, but it's also done in service of character and story. And so it's great. Royal Tenenbaum is filled with stuff like that in a way that many of his other movies feel like they are simply stuffed to because, "Hey, I'm creating my aesthetic." No?
Sonny00:40:47I think that's, no, I think that's fair. I mean, I do think that's fair. Again, I really, I cannot stress enough that you should see Grand Budapest Hotel. Yeah.
JVL00:40:56I'll do that, please. Yeah. Right now, right after I watch King of Thrones, Game of Thrones, and Stranger Things, I'm going to get on the ground.
Vic00:41:02It's under two hours. Let's do the movie. I believe you and I might have seen Mount Rushmore together. Mount Rushmore, excuse me. We 100% did.
JVL00:41:09And I think we may have seen Tenenbaums and I know we saw Life Aquatic together. I didn't see that with you. No, I didn't see that either. We totally did. It was a screener. We went together. I've never seen Life Aquatic. We were both so excited. Oh, I don't remember much from the theater. Is that what you're going to say? Is that what you're hinting at? No. It was mostly dark. We were both super excited. Is that what you're saying? We went together. I can tell you which one we saw.
Vic00:41:30We saw the Cineplex Odeon up on Wisconsin Avenue.
JVL00:41:31The Cineplex ship. Yeah. No. I've never seen Life Aquatic. You 100% did. You walked out on the boat. Why don't I have memory? One thing we can, I think, very fairly give Wes Anderson credit for is The Murraysance. Yes. So The Murraysance, truthfully, begins with Wild Things. Bill Murray has a tiny part as the lawyer and he's great. It's a little thing, but he's fantastic in it. But then he gets the Rushmore part and then Royal Tenenbaums, then Life Aquatic, and from
?00:42:01there-
JVL00:42:01Okay. Yeah, that's right.
?00:42:01As the lawyer. And he's great. It's a little thing, but he's fantastic in it. But then he gets the Rushmore part and then Royal Tenenbaums- And he was great.
JVL00:42:01It's off to the races. The Lost in Translation was between Life Aquatic and Royal Tenenbaums, right? It's part of the Rebirth. But yeah, but it's all part of that. Hold on. Let me, I'll look that. I don't think that's true, actually. Was Lost in Translation after? Lost in Translation is after Royal Tenenbaums. I can't- No, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Sonny00:42:18I was saying between Royal Tenenbaums and Life Aquatic. That's what I- Yes. Okay, sorry.
Vic00:42:22I can't imagine, Sonny, and you mentioned this earlier in your review, that Isle of Dogs is really that problematic because of the appropriating. He has a lot of Japanese voices. People- That's not enough. That's not enough. Ken Watanabe. Ken Watanabe.
JVL00:42:36Look, I'm sorry.
Sonny00:42:37He's the voice of the soldiers. Now, that's, see, this is problematic, too. This is very, very problematic. You're lucky you're Filipino. Let them fight. Let them fight. My favorite.
Vic00:42:46The victims of the co-prosperity sphere are allowed to make jokes. Ken Watanabe is such a movie star.
JVL00:42:52He's great.
Sonny00:42:52He's great.
JVL00:42:52I love that guy.
Sonny00:42:53All right, so I'm going to- Give us a ranking. Go, go, go. I've got lists. Love it. Ranking Wes Anderson movies. Perfect. Nine. I'm going to go from worst to best. I'm going to go from worst to best. Moonrise Kingdom, then Bottle Rocket, then The Darjeeling Limited, then The Life Aquatic, then Fantastic Mr. Fox, then Grand Budapest Hotel, then Isle of Dogs, then Rushmore, then Royal Tenenbaums. Number one. That's good. Wes Anderson movies ranked. That's good. Second ranking. Two rankings. Bonus ranking. Two rankings.
Vic00:43:19Bonus ranking.
Sonny00:43:20Wes Anderson regulars ranked.
Vic00:43:22Oh.
JVL00:43:23Oh.
Vic00:43:23Because he has, like Chris Guest, he's got-
Sonny00:43:26He's got a coterie of Midnight Intruderies. He's got a coterie. Number four. I'm just doing four. Okay. Four. Willem Dafoe. Oh, yes. Great in Life Aquatic. Grand Budapest Hotel. Great in Grand Budapest, and great as the rat in Mr. Fox. Yes. Number three. Luke Wilson. Luke Wilson. His first three films, only in his first three films, but perfect in all those roles. And really, I've always thought it was a shame that Luke Wilson never became a bigger star. No, we've talked about this before, but-
JVL00:43:55What are you talking about? He's in Old School. That is immortality. That is screen immortality. Agreed.
Sonny00:44:00Because Old School is- If I could just briefly digress. The great comedy of our time. I can live with that. I can live with that. Right? Sure. Okay.
JVL00:44:10Thank you.
Sonny00:44:11I would go with- Resolved. Maybe The Hangover, but- It's funny- They work in a very similar- Similar vein. Todd Phillips, I think, is the great underrated comedic filmmaker of our time. 100%, yes. But this is a discussion for another day. Number two, Bill Murray. I'm going to go- I'm putting Bill Murray at number two. I'm wondering who number one is. I can think of one or two people. Because number one is Owen Wilson. Owen Wilson. Obviously. I mean, both from an acting and a writing perspective, it is Owen Wilson. I would also-
Vic00:44:37If you had more than four, Jeff Goldblum. Sure. He's great. Yeah, sure. His voice is so unmistakable. He's only done two.
Sonny00:44:44He did Grand Budapest. He's Grand Budapest and I Love Dogs, but was he also in The Life Aquatic? I think he might have been.
Vic00:44:51Yeah. No. And of course, and let's not forget Bob Balaban, who keeps on popping up, who is also a Chris Guest regular. So, he's fantastic. Anyway, that's all I got. Wonderful.
JVL00:45:01I was always a little disappointed that Gwyneth Paltrow didn't become a regular. Yeah. Because her Margaret Tenenbaum is-
Vic00:45:09The Parker Posey of Wes Anderson movies.
JVL00:45:11Her Margaret Tenenbaum is one of my favorite acting little bits ever anywhere. She plays it so dead-eyed, but funny. God, she can be funny.
Sonny00:45:22I know people hate Gwyneth Paltrow. I've never understood. I guess I understand it, but I've always thought it was silly. They hate her- It's because of the goo. They hate her because they hate her.
JVL00:45:30Gloop? No, it's not Gloop. No, Gloop is- It's Goop. They hate her because of Goop, I think.
Sonny00:45:35Well, no, that's- I mean, she's a ridiculous person. It's totally- As a person. She may be. She's completely detached. But she's a great actress.
JVL00:45:41Totally. She's a tremendous actress, and she's fantastic.
Vic00:45:45And I believe our friend John Podhoretz babysat her when she was a baby. Used to change her diapers, as he said once upon a time. Is that redundant? Is that redundant? Babysat her when she was a baby? Well, no, because you can babysit a child when she was like six. No, yeah, she was a baby.
JVL00:45:57Yeah, he babysat her when she was actually- I have to say, having had babies, I cannot imagine trusting a baby to somebody who wasn't a parent already, because they are so terrifying, and there is so much that has to be done with a baby. It just speaks to John's innate goodness. This is why babies love him. My small children, my kid, my youngest kid, I mean, I've told you this before, whenever the commentary podcast comes on- Oh, he loves-
Guest00:46:24He just vibrates with excitement, and he starts shouting, John! It's John's way. John! John!
JVL00:46:29And then when Noah Rothman comes on, he cries. Whenever Noah talks- That's insane. That's so insane. I put the Substandard on for him last week when we were driving somewhere, and he liked you. He cried with you, Sonny. Yes. And when I came on- How about Gene? When I came on to talk, he said, Daddy, John, John, John. He wanted to change the channel, Daddy. There you go. I get enough of you. There you go. Give me J-Pod. There you go. Wonderful.
Vic00:46:54Good taste. Okay. Moving on. All right. Corrections, additions. I have one, which is our friend Flagg Taylor asks, is it me or is Victorino Matus's normal podcast voice slowly but surely becoming more Gene-like, or is the wish father to the thought of this case? Thanks, Flagg, for flagging that. I don't know what he's talking about.
Sonny00:47:17No. You tried to do the Gene voice on the Free Beacon podcast. I don't know what you're talking about, Sonny.
Vic00:47:23By the way, everyone, you got onto the- How dare you?
Sonny00:47:26He had to fill in for Natalie Johnson. You got on the show? It was a real downgrade. You got it. It was a real downgrade. By the way, everyone should listen to the Free Beacon podcast. Oh, yes. We love it. Aaron Harris, Matt Continetti, Liz Harrington.
Vic00:47:36We were told to flag this on- Natalie Johnson.
JVL00:47:38You really should listen to it. It's a great cast. But everyone- Right and writer. From the right, Matthew Continetti.
Vic00:47:43And from the furthest right. It's a great show because you really don't know what you're going to get each episode. It's crazy.
Sonny00:47:50Anyway, everyone should listen to it. It is politics. It is not culture. But there is a lot of culture. It's a good mix of stuff. Oh, yeah. It's wonderful. Anyway.
Vic00:47:58And a great producer, isn't it?
Sonny00:47:59Free ad. Great producer. Free ad for- Yeah, well, the producer, honestly, take or leave him. It's a thankless job for that producer. Can I ask a behind-the-scenes question?
JVL00:48:07So how do you decide who's going to be on the- It's always the same show. Almost always. I just had to sub.
Sonny00:48:12It's always Liz hosts, Matt to her right, Aaron Harrison to his right, and then Goldfarb when he's there. And then the Natalie segment, she just sits in the room. She comes in. Okay. I love Liz's deadpan. It's really- Her question transitions are very good. Anyway, everyone should listen. It's good. If I ever need somebody to fill in, I would be happy to come on. Just to do- I want to do a wrestling segment with Aaron. I want me and Harrison to do a wrestling segment. Well, I'll bring it up to the committee. I don't know. I can't.
Vic00:48:51That's all the time we're giving to this episode. Cut his mic. Questions, comments, complaints, compliments, tweet us at VictorinoMattis. That's it. Sonny Bunch.
Sonny00:49:00At JVLast, who has now 100,000 followers, I think. 100,000? Is that how many followers?
Vic00:49:05I forgot how much you love Twitter. Again, be sure to subscribe to us on iTunes or Google Play. Just type in Substanda to the podcast. We're there. Leave a review. Tell your friends. Until next time.
Sonny00:49:23Short episode.
Vic00:49:24That is a short one. Well, you know, much like Wes Anderson, with his dialogue, there's not that much to say. I was going, unless you have other thoughts. No, I got nothing. I forgot to mention my Easter. Now, I was in New York prior to Easter, but then we made it back and went up to, you know, out by Winchester for Easter with Captain Bill Dwyer and his gang. And at some point, and I'm drinking, he turns, yes, shocking, having a glass of delicious Blade and Bow bourbon, by the way, which is really good. Did we do Spirit of the Week?
Sonny00:49:57Oh my gosh, we forgot Spirit of the Week. We didn't do Spirit of the Week.
Vic00:50:00No wonder we're short by five minutes.
Sonny00:50:01Yes. Wow. We better do it now, otherwise the natives will riot in the expanded universe threat.
Vic00:50:08Oh my gosh, I was totally out of the element here. Spirit of the Week was Johnny Walker Black Label, thanks to our friends at Diageo and Hunter PR. I forget how smoky even a blend is of the scotch.
Sonny00:50:22My favorite thing- Is the black the good one? Yeah, the black is, well, I think it's the best at-
Vic00:50:27Gold won this year, but- The black is always a good, solid-
Sonny00:50:31I think it is the- What is the entry level? The best- Red, that's what we had at our wedding. Johnny Walker Black is the best Johnny Walker per dollar per ounce. I think it is the most drinkable at the best price. Red is very, it's a mixer. It's a great mixer. And blue, I think, is a little bit overrated. It's just too expensive. We know about that. Yeah, I know, I know. Sorry, John.
Vic00:50:52Yeah, no, the black is really good consistency. Also, okay, really quickly, I forgot to mention, the results came in. From the International, the Whiskey Awards. I thought you retook your triglyceride test. No, no, no, no, no. You're going to wait a little longer on that? Yes. Out of nine categories, three of them were won by Americans, so that means the bottles that we chose made it that far, two of which were Japanese, and then one was from South Africa. It was crazy.
JVL00:51:18Did you do offensive voices when you were at this thing with the South African- Oh, no. Did you go to the Japanese judges and say, oh.
Vic00:51:25How dare you? No. Anyway, back to the Easter- Let them fight. I'm talking to Captain Builder. He's talking to his buddy, Glenn, a fellow firefighter, and he turns to Glenn in the middle of this and says, oh, hey, by the way, I need you to help me carry the grill up to the front yard, and I'm standing right there. I said, I can help, too. I can help you carry the grill, and you know what he said to me? I kid you not. Word for word, Captain Builder turned to me, and he pats me on the arm. He goes, I know you can, buddy.
?00:51:59Perfect.
Sonny00:52:02I was hoping he was going to say, oh, I'm sure it's fine, Vic.
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