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#87. The Substandard on Star Wars: The Last Jedi (with Spoilers)
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Dudes Chatting — The Last Jedi (full spoilers): The long-form spoiler episode the gang promised in episode 085. Gene/Vic opens with another three-star call before the hosts go deep. Sonny draws a structural distinction between "Story A" — Rey, Luke, and Kylo Ren, which he finds compelling — and "Story B" — the fleet-retreat plot involving Finn and Rose — which he dismisses as an "O.J. White Bronco chase for 50 minutes" that goes nowhere and could be cut entirely. JVL catalogs what he calls the film's failed payoffs: Finn's coma opening, Rey's parentage reveal (or non-reveal), the fate of the Jedi texts, and the abrupt disposal of Snoke, each of which he argues represents Rian Johnson discarding the setup planted in The Force Awakens. Both hosts object to the film's Guardians-style sitcom humor, arguing Star Wars comedy should feel organic rather than imported. The Carrie Fisher "Mary Poppins moment" gets discussed and gently mocked. JVL concludes that Johnson was out of his depth; Sonny and JVL each pitch alternate versions of how the film could have worked. The episode closes with Spirit of the Week: Old Forester Statesman.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Weekly Standard, hosted by Victorino
Vic00:00:29Matusnarrator and Sonny Bunch, with editor Bill Kristol. Matus weap and Sonny Bunch, with editor Bill Kristol. Matusapanese and Sonny Bunch, with editor Bill Kristol. By the way, I'm imagining, JVL, your wife probably likes the song Believe, because I believe it was first done by Josh Groban, perhaps? One of her favorites? Groban. Guilty pleasure. Let's not say it's a favorite. So, you know, the opening line of Believe is, children sleeping, snow is softly falling, dreams are calling. But apparently, some of the fourth graders have been rewriting the lyrics. So, all throughout the school, they're saying, children sleeping, Pennywise is watching, screams are calling. Kidding? Yes. Jeez, that's dark. In fourth grade. In fourth grade. So, apparently, it's like, because somebody saw the commercial, did you see this commercial about a show with a scary clown?
Sonny00:02:40Because Vic actually took the entire class out to see It for, as a Christmas present. If you like Jingle Bells, Batman smells, I'm going to write a special one for you. He sent Blu-rays of It to every house. This is why my kids are in private school.
Vic00:02:54Okay, so, but you know what? And Michael said, oh, you're really going to like it. He said, art. Our teacher actually cried at the end. I said, what are you talking about? So, we just sit through this thing, and they sing the song, but, you know, God's honest truth, you know, Kate and I got a little teary-eyed. And you're watching these kids, it's, you know, they're so young, it's like this precious moment where they're at this age, they're innocent, but time goes so fast. Ask me how fast.
Sonny00:03:21How fast does it go, Vic?
Vic00:03:22Like light speed. Speaking of light speed, over the weekend, Star Wars The Last Jedi did $220 million. Followed by Ferdinand with $13 million, Coco at $10 million, and yes, as we predicted, Wonder is now at fourth with $5.4 million ahead of Justice League. Which came in fifth place with $4 million.
Sonny00:03:42What is Justice League's total now? Has Justice League grossed less in its entire run thus far than Star Wars did in its opening weekend?
Vic00:03:52That's off when I saw that, and I know it's been around for a few weeks already, fine, but, you know. 219.
Sonny00:03:58Yeah.
JVL00:03:59Justice League has done 219.595, putting it literally $400,000 behind what Star Wars did.
Sonny00:04:09And I would assume that by the time Tuesday's grosses our final Star Wars The Last Jedi will gross more in its first four days domestically than Justice League does in its entire run domestically.
Vic00:04:22Yep. And I believe it fell by like another 56% or something like that, Justice League did, over the weekend. So, of course. Of course, we all saw The Last Jedi.
Sonny00:04:32All of us? All saw. All four of us? Maybe.
Guest00:04:39Come on in. Gene! Gene! Gene!
Vic00:04:42I wish I could do the Lucille Bluth. Gene! Gene! Gene Parmesan. Gene Parmesan.
?00:04:47Ah!
Vic00:04:49That was great. That was great. That's it. That was great. Ahem. In Star Wars The Last Jedi, the First Order is hunting down the last Jedi. And the Rebels. But where are they going? What are they doing? Talk about Rebels without a cause. Still, there are some stellar performances. Mark Hamill isn't just serious. He's a joker, too. Are we to trust Benicio Del Toro? He's not your usual suspect. And Carrie Fisher performs some death-defying acts.
?00:05:25Hmm. Oh.
Vic00:05:27That. Oh. A what? What did I say? There's a lot of tension between Rey and Kylo Ren. Notice how she's always trying to grab his lightsaber. But I guess the real hero of this movie is BB-8. What can't that droid do? It repairs things and at one point blows a bunch of things up. Talk about droid rage. My favorite part of the movie, the porks. I can't wait to see these cuddly critters in their own movie. You could simply call it critters. Or porgies, too, the next day. Or porgies revenge. But I have to admit, the porg that Chewbacca roasts and almost eats looked pretty good to me. I guess you can say porg is the other white meat. I give Star Wars The Last Jedi three stars. Merry Christmas, everybody.
JVL00:06:23Three? Three stars. We should just give everyone... Gene, this is your first ever three-star review. Boy, this is my... This movie must have blown.
Sonny00:06:30So here, we need to be very clear going forward. Spoilers ahead. If you've not seen it, if you don't want to have your experience... Ruined. No, well, quote-unquote ruined. You know, just if you don't want to know what's going to happen in the movie, turn off the podcast now, listen to it later, download it again. We like extra downloads. That's fine.
Vic00:06:52I think the reason why my theory, the reason why Gene only gave it three stars is he missed parts of the movie. It was so long, he had to use the bathroom. Yeah, seven, eight times. At his age, you know. He's old. Yeah, he's 90-something. Yeah, you know, come on. May the force be with your bladder. Somehow, this show, he's going to survive this show. Oh, really? That's my guess. So, your thoughts now. Where do we begin? Where do you guys want to begin? I have questions, observations, but I really want to hear. Sonny, you want to do the review? Go for it.
JVL00:07:24Do we want a big boy review of this? Do we want a big boy? Do you want to talk about it? Tell us about it. All right. All right. So, I mean...
Sonny00:07:29Because everybody who's listening now has already watched the movie. Let's just get into it. Let's get into it. Can we start with the first thing that's wrong with it? Sure. The first thing that's wrong with it is the opening crawl. Here's what the purpose of the opening crawl is in a Star Wars movie. It is to explain to you the things that have happened in the time when you haven't been watching Star Wars movies. So, the first... The interregnum. Right. It's the interregnum. So, the first Star Wars movie sets up the whole universe. The second Star Wars movie, Empire Strikes Back... ...explains that in between the destruction of the Death Star and the arrival of the Imperial fleet at Hoth, the Empire has been chasing Luke Skywalker around. They're trying to find him. Darth Vader is obsessed. In between Empire and Return of the Jedi, there's more. And this continues through the prequels. In the prequels, you have... I just happened to stumble on Revenge of the Sith as I was watching TV this weekend. No! Right at the opening. And the first... In the opening crawl, the first word is WAR! And it tells you about heroes on both sides, and evil is everywhere, and it's this weird... I remember conservatives being very angry with it at the time, because it's this, you know, kind of cultural relativism, you know, et cetera.
JVL00:08:44Lucas was just beginning to come around to the... Yeah, to our side.
Sonny00:08:48But the... So anyway, so the whole point of the opening crawl is to set up what has happened while you weren't watching Star Wars. And we get that in The Force Awakens, even though it's kind of nonsensical with its discussion of resistance. And New Republic, and First Order, and we're like, well, what are they resisting, really? If the... You know, why isn't the New Republic just fighting the First Order? Okay, whatever. That's never addressed, really. And is not in this movie, either. The opening crawl here tells us that the First Order reigns, that, you know, rebels are fleeing, Luke Skywalker needs to relight the Spark of Hope, et cetera, et cetera. But the problem is, there's no interregnum to discuss. Last Jedi picks up immediately after the events of The Force Awakens.
JVL00:09:32Yes.
Sonny00:09:33The crawl is, in this movie, it functions as... A recap. Previously on. Right. It's a recap. So, we are supposed to believe that, in literally the hours between the destruction of the Starkiller base and the evacuation of the Resistance base, the First Order has taken over the whole galaxy.
JVL00:09:51Even though they've lost their most important military weapon.
Sonny00:09:54They've lost their most important military weapon. Apparently, they just have other fleets hanging around that Hux can... Hux and Kylo Ren can get to immediately. Which they've bought from the arms dealers. Which they've bought. We'll talk about that. We'll get to that. We'll get to the arms dealers. We'll get to that. And... The merchants of death. And it just doesn't really... Basically, all of the events of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi take place over the course of about seven days.
JVL00:10:17Yeah. Right. No, I think that's actually right.
Sonny00:10:19I mean, and that's... And that is... There's no sense of epic scope or scale. It's just like, here are things that's happening to these people in very rapid, rapid order.
JVL00:10:27This movie covers... No kidding. Seven hours. Seven hours worth of... About... Of movie time. About maybe 24 hours. And it feels like seven hours of real time.
Sonny00:10:35Maybe 24 hours. Well, we'll get to that. But anyway, so that's the first thing that's wrong with it. And it really... You know, there were things about The Last Jedi that I really, really like. You know, it's not going crazy. Maybe more than JBL. Maybe more than Vic. I really like... I really like the Kylo, Rey, Luke stuff. Me too. And I think they are... They are trying to do something interesting with the Poe, Leia, Holdo stuff. But the problem is that those two subplots are totally overwhelmed and totally broken up and totally made to feel just unnatural and unconnected by all the stuff in the middle, which is this sub-prequel, awful CGI nonsense featuring Finn and Rose on the casino planet. It's so bad, it makes the movie unbearable. It's unbearably long, and it just, it breaks up the actual emotionally resonant parts of the film. And that was the...
Vic00:11:35Sticking us with these awful characters who we don't care about. And that was the episode one to three reference you made earlier. You said there were certain scenes in the movie that reminded you of the prequels.
Sonny00:11:44Yes, in my review, in my review I talked about how this movie mixes kind of the structure. It basically takes the structure of The Empire Strikes Back with a few kind of visual references from Return of the Jedi, and then jams, just really. Forces in there, so to speak. This kind of prequel-y subplot that is like sub-Star Wars cartoon, sub-Attack of the Clones.
JVL00:12:09Crap.
Sonny00:12:10I mean, it's a really, it's a really... And again, there are some interesting ideas in it. I like the idea of Benicio Del Toro's thief slash hacker, who is kind of operating in this world of gray. Can I?
JVL00:12:23Do you want to jump in? Well, I was just going to say that I... Hand to God, this is true. I came out of the movie and thought to myself, so who was the actor doing a bad Benicio Del Toro impression? Like, no kidding. It wasn't until I went to IMDb and I was like, mother of God, that's actually Benicio Del Toro. He was like a parody of himself. It was, what is he doing in this? And he's playing a character that's from The Fifth Element. Like, that is not a Star Wars character. We don't have characters like that in the Star Wars. Sorry. So anyway.
Sonny00:12:56I don't mean to interrupt. Anyway, these are my large... Kind of idea things that are wrong with this movie. And we can get into more granular detail as we go.
JVL00:13:06But... There are... I think you're over... I think you're underselling the fundamental problems. Go for it, J.L. The fundamental problem. And there are many tertiary problems spinning off of that. The fundamental problem is we have two stories being told. Let me break down to you, in their essence, what those two stories are. There is story A. Rey is in Ireland. Luke, asking him to train her. He refuses. She starts FaceTiming with Kylo. Rey leaves to turn Kylo. Luke decides to destroy Ireland and the Jedi wills. Kylo kills Snoke. Rey and Kylo go their separate ways. Luke dies. Okay. Okay? This is a story that does not have a ton of action, but it's something. There are three acts to it. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. Okay. The story B. The fleet is in a battle with the First Order. The fleet jumps away, and then the First Order shows up and continues the battle. The fleet does a slow-motion retreat. Finn and Rose... Finn and Rose leave to find a thief who can turn off the First Order tracker. Finn and Rose find the thief. Finn and Rose fail to turn off the First Order tracker. The fleet continues its slow-motion retreat. The fleet lands on a planet to continue its battle with the First Order. The First Order lands. The Rebels run away. This story, nothing happens in it. Literally nothing happens in this story. It begins with the Rebels running away. It continues with the Rebels running away. It ends with the Rebels running away. The entire story, which is half of the freaking movie, is nothing but... narration running in place.
Sonny00:14:31Now, you could... The main purpose this serves, I think, is to set up the Resistance as something that is actually small and can function as a rebellion, as opposed to in the first movie, where the Resistance is just the army of the New Republic. Like, there is no reason to think of the Resistance as the underdogs in that film, right? The whole point of Star Wars is to think of you have rebel underdogs going up against the great, powerful Empire. Right. And by the end of this movie, you can fit the entire Resistance into the hold of the Millennium Falcon. And that, I think, is... That's the narrative purpose of it, in the terms of the trilogy that we're watching, right? But that's a strategic... Is to decimate... Is to totally destroy the idea of the Resistance as a military force, and to force them into this kind of...
JVL00:15:20This is an hour 15 of screen time, given to a story that has no arc.
Sonny00:15:24Don't get me wrong. It's wrong. It's bad. It's bad. My friend... Charlie Erickson described it as, it's the O.J. White Bronco chase.
JVL00:15:33Basically.
Sonny00:15:33It's the O.J. White Bronco chase for, like, 50 minutes of screen time.
JVL00:15:37And you just think... I just look at this, and I can't understand how this got made. And part of me wants to immediately jump down Kathleen Kennedy's throat and say, oh, this is just Lucasfilm. Look at this. They're too safe. But they did Rogue One. Rogue One, which people may not love as much as I do, but is a story that takes real risks as a storytelling contraption, and has something to say. And the fact that these... Two projects were in development simultaneously within the same company, I find mystifying. No? Am I the only one? No, no, no. I'm shaking my head.
Vic00:16:09Did you take Mike?
JVL00:16:10I have Michael and the whole family, all four of us. What did your kids say?
Vic00:16:15They... Well, you know, Sabrina, she liked it. It was long. I kept seeing if anybody needed to go to the bathroom. I actually didn't. But, you know, AMC has this wonderful...
Sonny00:16:26Did you just want to go? Were you just trying to get somebody to go to the bathroom? Did you want somebody to go with you? No, and I didn't.
Vic00:16:31I didn't. I waited until after the end of the movie, jokes aside. But I kept on thinking, okay, it's got to end now. It's got to end now. It's got to end now. And it didn't. And then I looked at the kids, but they were completely reclined, and they seemed to be enjoying themselves. And there were moments where I'm sure they were thinking, like, what's going on? I talked, but Michael got very excited at certain parts. He loved, you know, seeing things that, you know, the new ad ad was a big thing of his. He's hoping to get it for Christmas, the new ad ad, you know, things like that. In the end, I said, what'd you think about the movie? And he said, well, he liked it. He thought it was great. But he said he didn't, he was, he was disappointed and sad and upset that Snoke died.
Sonny00:17:11Well, we can, do we want to talk about this?
Vic00:17:13And he said Kylo Ren is not, he's not the right guy to lead the First Order because he's not evil enough. So that's what he said. Dad, why is Kylo such a whiny bitch? I know, I know, really. Okay, so.
JVL00:17:26So I am curious as to how. This movie is going to play. The Rotten Tomatoes numbers on this, I find mystifying.
Sonny00:17:34Here's, no, I'm going to explain this. Can you explain it to me? Because the audience reaction is like 55 or something. So if you, if you just look at the Rotten Tomatoes score, the critic score is 93%. The Rotten Tomatoes score is like 56% or something like that. What has happened here, and this is very, this is very strange, right? Usually what will happen is a, a franchise will get bad critical numbers and positive numbers from viewers. So look at Justice League, for instance, Justice League is like 30%. It's like 55 or 40% fresh from critics and 80% fresh from audiences, right? Okay. What has happened here is that there has been a revolt on the Reddit 4chan type places where they have flooded the, the Rotten Tomatoes vote with a bunch of negative zero star, one star reviews. And I, I feel very comfortable saying this because the, the com score on, so com score is a company that tracks people who actually win.
JVL00:18:29Like an A minus, right?
Sonny00:18:30Cinema score gave it an A. A, right. Com score gave it a four out of five definite recommend. So I, audiences are coming out of this movie and talent, the companies that track audiences who are actually in movies are reporting fantastically positive numbers for this film. The Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb scores are subject to the vagaries of any internet poll, which is that they are not scientific and that they are, they, they have the, they are able to be manipulated by a small but dedicated fan base.
JVL00:19:02I can't believe those guys on 4chan would mess with the integrity of the Rotten Tomatoes vote.
Sonny00:19:07So anyway, so.
Vic00:19:08Have you no decency, sir?
Sonny00:19:09I have, I have, I mean, my, my issue with this is really a Rotten Tomatoes slash Fandango issue is that, look, Fandango and Rotten Tomatoes have a very close relationship, right? Isn't Rotten Tomatoes basically owned by Fandango? I don't know. But they, they, they all, all these companies, it would not be difficult for Rotten Tomatoes to put into place. A requirement that to vote in the Rotten Tomatoes poll, you have to buy a ticket through Fandango. I don't think that would be too hard to do. And I think that would kind of cut down on this sort of thing. And you'd see less hyperventilating from folks.
JVL00:19:44We need to shut down Rotten Tomatoes till we figure out what the hell is going on.
Sonny00:19:47Shut it down.
JVL00:19:48Yeah, I, so the reason I asked Vic is, so I walked out of this with my kid and I said, so what'd you think of the movie? Keep in mind, when I tell you this story and his response, I am not suggesting that my child has a sophisticated sense of cinema. I will remind you that he thought that Justice League was basically Citizen Kane. Yeah, right.
Vic00:20:07The greatest movie ever put to film. Whereas my son refuses to see it. He's anti-DC.
JVL00:20:14So I said to him, so what'd you think? And he goes, I don't know, like, the movie didn't make a lot of sense. And then there was just a lot of like running in place where nothing happened. Am I wrong, Dad? Wow, there you go. I thought to myself. Nailed it. If an unsophisticated, and again, this is not because my kid is sophisticated, but if an unsophisticated nine-year-old viewer picks up on that, surely everybody else is picking up on it, at least subliminally?
Sonny00:20:38I would say that I was, so I wrote a very negative review of The Last Jedi for the Free Beacon. Ding, ding, ding. And I was waiting for a lot of pushback from people who were like, no, this movie is the
JVL00:20:54best movie ever. You're an idiot.
Sonny00:20:56You're wrong. Just shut off your brain and enjoy it. And I got some of that. I definitely, I mean, you get some of that on any of these movies, but I got a surprisingly large amount of people saying, holy crap, this is right. I like, you know, this kind of-
Vic00:21:11Including, by the way, including people in the office who told me not to tell you because they don't need you to know that. Yes. They don't want to let you know that you're right, but they secretly confided-
Sonny00:21:18People in our very own office.
JVL00:21:19I said, don't tell Shredder, but I think he's right. Do you know anybody who liked it?
Vic00:21:24Like, oh my gosh. No, no, no.
JVL00:21:26I don't know anybody who liked it, because this is literally true, on Twitter, email, email friends, IRL friends. I really feel- I don't know anybody who really enjoyed the movie.
Sonny00:21:34I am so hesitant to do this, because it's such Kaelism. It's such like, I don't know anyone who didn't like- I'm sorry, Pauline Kael was right. Yeah, but like, but I mean, I honestly, I know a few dedicated, people from Twitter, mostly, dedicated Star Wars fanboys and girls who have been like, yeah, the movie was great and all the haters are wrong. They're just jelly and wrong. And you hear a lot of it from critics who are all Rian Johnson fanboys. The worst thing about the reaction to this film has been all the Rian Johnson fanboys- Because they're just trying to save the reputation of Rick and Looper. Who work in the New York media saying like, oh no, this is great. And all the Star Wars fanboys who don't like it are idiots who are just, they just want the same old, same old. They don't, they can't, they don't understand what a great filmmaker is doing here. And I'm like, I'm sorry, Rian Johnson has made a couple of nice movies, but like- He's made three feature films, period, in his career. Yeah. And they're good. I mean, Brick is really good. Pretty good, but they're not. Looper's fine.
JVL00:22:32I mean, he hasn't directed a feature in five years. This is a guy who, it is clear, was out of his depth.
Vic00:22:38Wait a minute, isn't, was it Looper? No, am I not wrong? Was it Looper with Christian Hadenson? No. No, no, no, it's, it's- Looper. Looper was- Joseph Gordon-Levitt.
Sonny00:22:44Bruce Willis and Joseph Gordon-Levitt. It's the time- Oh, yes. It's the movie that is the mashup of Back to the Future and The Terminator and Akira. That's right, that's right.
Vic00:22:52That's the movie that- What's his name? And they could teleport instantly, different places. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I know. What is that one called, Looper? Jumpers.
Sonny00:23:04Jumpers, wow. Is that it? Is that what- I think so, yeah. No, but that's, Hayden Christensen's not in that. No. You're thinking of, like, there's a heist film that-
Vic00:23:12Oh, no, I'm talking about, like, really? I think Hayden Christensen's in that Jumpers movie. Maybe he is, I don't know. Yeah, he is. Okay, I have questions, and maybe you could help me. Please. That's how I did this. I don't have any- Socratic dialogue. Yes. Socratic dialogue. Okay, so, let's see here. First question. I think you have to begin each one of these with question. Question. Well, we've established that from last episode. Question, what about the guy with the lapel pin? Justin Theroux.
Sonny00:23:39No, so this is one of my favorite-
JVL00:23:40It turns out there are two master thieves.
Sonny00:23:41This is my favorite stupid plot moment from the film. Is it, like, Maz Kanata's like, there's only one person in the entire universe who can do this thing for you, and you've got to go to this one specific planet where he is, and he's going to be wearing the lapel. His lapel pin, he's going to be gambling, and you've got to find him, and you've got to bring him back, because he's the only one who can do it. He's the only one. I could do it, obviously, because I'm Maz Kanata, and I'm great, but I've got this union dispute. That was actually, that made me laugh in the theaters. But I've got this union dispute. I can't handle it. But this one guy, he's the only other guy in the whole universe that you can do it, and also maybe the guy who you happen to get stuck in jail with in the basement of the casino.
JVL00:24:16Also, why is that guy stuck in jail if he's the world's greatest escape artist? Why is he just sitting there? Why is he sitting there? Why is he leaving? What's happening? He was taking a nap.
Vic00:24:24I don't understand. He was taking a nap. So, that guy with the lapel pin who's playing intergalactic craps or something, what was his point? Justin Theroux, you said, is the actor's name?
Sonny00:24:36He's just there. So, we are led to believe that he is the hacker that Maz Kanata is talking about. Yes, yes, yes. And then he is, but he doesn't matter. He's there for how long?
JVL00:24:46Question. How long does he have to stay? Ten seconds. Could the Rebellion hire one of these two men to be their CIO? Because it seems like they'd be very, very useful in a conflict against the First Order. That's a great idea.
Sonny00:24:58You think these people who have no real moral qualms against backing one side versus the other-
JVL00:25:04And who are so talented, could command an enormous price on the market in terms of employment. Yeah.
Vic00:25:09Do you know what I thought they were going to do to destroy Snoke's ship? I thought they were going to load a virus onto the ship. A death's head virus?
Sonny00:25:18Yes.
JVL00:25:19When does the thief betray Finn and Rose?
Sonny00:25:22I saw the movie again, because this was- I saw it twice. Bill was right. He did.
JVL00:25:27This is all a pose for you.
Sonny00:25:29You really loved it. I was kind of curious about this, because I thought it was kind of a plot hole as well. And I didn't notice it the first time, because I was taking notes. But when Poe tells Finn and Rey that Admiral Effie Trinket is trying to get everybody off the ships- I had the same thought. The same thought. Everybody off the ships in the transports. There's a cut to Benicio del Toro's face, where he hears them saying this. And then he betrays them after they've been captured.
JVL00:26:00Oh, after they've been trapped. Okay. I see.
Vic00:26:04Question. Yes. What are they holding in their hands? Several people have these gold things in their hands. The dice.
Sonny00:26:10Those are the dice from the Millennium- Okay. So here's another absurd plot point. Thank you. Luke holds the dice from the Millennium Falcon. He's like, oh, this is- Were they in the original Star Wars? Yeah. Okay.
JVL00:26:22I remember George Lucas talking about having fuzzy dice hanging from there. He envisioned the Millennium Falcon like an American graffiti car, but I don't ever remember actually seeing the golden dice. Neither do I. They were, and I only know this because I played the Star Wars collectible card game
Sonny00:26:36when I was a younger individual, and that was a- Was that last year?
JVL00:26:40It was like a luck card.
Sonny00:26:41That was last year. Yes. Well, six months ago. It was a luck card you could play, and it was like the- Okay. Thank you.
Vic00:26:46Okay, so who had-
Sonny00:26:47I may still have that card in my parents' house somewhere. They were something.
Vic00:26:50You could sell it on eBay. So Luke has the dice, and then somebody else has the dice.
Sonny00:26:55Well, no, so Luke astral projects.
Vic00:26:58Oh, yes. And he's got- He uses his sling ring.
Sonny00:27:01He's got ash. Yes, exactly. Right? Yeah. Like Doctor Strange. Basically. He astral projects, but he, I guess, also astral projects the dice, and they don't just disappear when he dies. They stay for a little bit so Kylo can see them. Yes. And then they fade away.
Vic00:27:16Where did Kylo last see the dice? I can't remember. It's like at the end of the film. Oh, yes. Marching through the base. I see. Okay. Okay. Question. Was it necessary to have Boz? No. No. Absolutely not. What was that? Okay. Absolutely not. Will we ever know the origins of Snoke? Who? The movie's already done with him. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a bunch of questions about Snoke. Okay. Yeah. Exactly.
JVL00:27:45So Snoke fits in. I made a whole list of failed pasts. Payoffs. Okay. To the movie. Oh, and there are a bunch. And one of these is Snoke. Who is he? Is he a Sith? Did he create the First Order? What does he want? Does he predate Palpatine? Does he want order in the galaxy or something else? How did he reach out and corrupt young Kylo? And then he just dies, and we're on to the next thing. Yeah.
Sonny00:28:07Yeah. Right. So what's happening?
JVL00:28:10Why do we care about Snoke then?
Sonny00:28:11So here's what I complain about this in my review, and the constant refrain from people is, oh, it doesn't matter. Palpatine didn't get much screen time, and Empire. Or Return of the Jedi. But we knew what he wanted. But we knew what he was. And what he was was the heavy favorite against the underdog. He is the guy who's in charge. He's the guy who's in charge. He's created this empire. The whole point of the movie is to overthrow him. That is all the reason that you need.
Vic00:28:34And there's even a mention of Darth Sidious in the movie.
Sonny00:28:36In the interregnum, in the interregnum between the end of Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens, this insanely powerful person has arisen. He has reconstituted the empire. He has turned Luke Skywalker's young Jedi factory against him. He's done all of these things. And then he's just dispatched in about five minutes of screen time. Yeah. I mean, literally five minutes of screen time.
JVL00:29:02And nobody talks about him again.
Sonny00:29:04Nobody talks about him again. I mean, he serves the same sort of purpose of Palpatine in the sense that he is there to create the relationship between Rey and Kylo. So, okay. I can kind of understand that. But there is still a total, there is a totally unpaid off idea of Snoke. And it makes his death weightless. And it makes us care less about what happens to Kylo and Rey.
Vic00:29:33Speaking of weightless, what about Carrie Fisher frozen in outer space? Carrie Poppins.
JVL00:29:39So, she uses the Force and suddenly it's okay. She can take exposure to the vacuum of space for like three minutes.
Sonny00:29:48Yeah, whatever. She just sat there.
Vic00:29:49That was really interesting when she reached.
Sonny00:29:54It was awful zombie CGI, Mary Poppins, Carrie Fisher playing Leia. And we need to make, look, this is a somber moment. And I don't want this to come across as jokey or disrespectful of everyone involved. But we need to note that this movie, the trilogy that we are watching right now, is designed to take off. A piece of the board from our favorite characters from the original trilogy. So Han Solo comes off the board in The Force Awakens. Luke Skywalker comes off the board in this film. And the next film, we assume, is going to be Leia Organa's Swan Song. Now, obviously, this has been disrupted by Carrie Fisher's death. And again, look, you have to deal with that in this movie. And having her shuffle off into the vacuum of space and die with this kind of beatific look on her face. She's kind of frozen in this moment of resistance, panic, and death and destruction. Would have been a fine send-off. You also could have, and again, I want to be very sensitive here. You could have done the whole... Grand Moff Tarkin zombie CGI thing and had her pilot the hyperspace missile into Snoke's ship.
JVL00:31:27Which had no effect to Snoke's ship because the ship was fine and they just offloaded all the equipment they had. Never mind, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Continue.
Sonny00:31:33But you could have sent her off that way and that would have been emotionally resonant and would have given her the... And instead what they've done is they have... Maybe it will be a boon to the series because it will force them to... Maybe it will be a boon to the series because it will force them to... To jump ahead 20 years into the future. In the next film. We won't get that lucky. Or 10 years into the future. And the opening scene is, you know, the rebel... The resistance, the last remnant of the resistance has amassed for Leia's funeral on some planet. And then the First Order shows up and they have to defend her funeral. Whatever. Maybe they do that. I don't know. But like, it has... It really kind of monkeys with, I think, what they're trying to do with these movies. It just feels like a misnarrative opportunity to create some sort of emotional resonance in this film.
Vic00:32:25You talk about payoffs, failed payoffs, right? There's also the premature payoff. And that is Kylo Ren and Rey fighting together on the same side against the Imperial Guards. That feels like something that they should have saved for the last of the series. Instead it happened now, along with the death of Snoke. Who, again, we only see for one and a half, you know, movies or so. Unless they somehow find a way...
JVL00:32:48Can I give you the other three failed payoffs before we move on? So we leave Finn in a coma at the end of The Force Awakens, where we are supposed to not know if he's going to live or die. And then here, he just wakes up on his own and immediately jumps into action.
Vic00:33:01Well, it puts a slayer the same thing. Comas are very temporary in that world.
JVL00:33:05But again, what you're doing is you're lowering the stakes for all future near-death experiences. Rey's parentage. We have been teased with the question of her parentage from the very first minute we meet her. The story makes a big deal of it. They're mysterious. They told her to stay put. She herself is obsessed with them. And then, oh, it turns out her parents are just nobody. Everything's fine.
Sonny00:33:25I'm going to disagree with this. I actually like this. I like the idea that she comes from nothing. And again, if we are trying to end the Skywalker saga, we are trying to create a new blank slate for the Star Wars universe, the idea that she is a nobody is, I think, resonant in an important way. Totally. It undermines The Force Awakens, and it makes all the people who said, well, of course Rey has super force powers. She's Vader's clone, or she's the—
Vic00:33:57Kenobi's relative.
Sonny00:33:58So, of course, she's not a Mary Sue. She's just powerful, because that's her bloodline. Well, obviously those people are going to need to look foolish.
Vic00:34:05Could Kylo Ren have been lying to her? They're not junkers.
Sonny00:34:08It's possible. Possible.
JVL00:34:10Again, so I actually like the choice of her not having royal parentages, but again, as a storytelling matter, what they're doing is they're, you know, they're putting a gun and a knife and a garrot on the table in front of you and then just walking away from it, which just violates every rule of storytelling. And then the wills of the Jedi.
Vic00:34:30The wills of this precious thing. Ah, we didn't even get to that, yes.
JVL00:34:32They are so important. We have to have a whole place. And then Yoda's just like, eh, let's blow them up. They're kind of boring anyway. I mean, this, that whole— Again, they just over and over and over again, they build up a moment and then refuse to pay it off or do the opposite. Which, what this does is, when you fail to pay off big questions that the story goes out of its way to raise, you are telling the audience not to care. That's what this movie does. And this is why I say Rian Johnson is out of his depth here.
Sonny00:35:01Or he is very explicitly trying to destroy the Star Wars mythos. Or that. I mean, I don't think— But it's malpractice. We should not understate the idea that he is very specifically trying to take everything that is kind of loved by Star Wars fans and just destroying it.
JVL00:35:18The most subversive indie director ever. I mean, I— There's not much left.
Sonny00:35:24If you look at— All right. For instance, they make a big deal about Maz Kanata finding Luke Skywalker's lightsaber in The Force Awakens. And what is the last thing we see of that lightsaber? Isn't it being destroyed? Being torn in half?
JVL00:35:43Is that what she's holding? She's holding his lightsaber? Yeah, yeah, right. It's torn in half. It's torn in half. It's just destroyed. It's ripped asunder. I guess—
Sonny00:35:51But what is the— I guess the lightsaber that Luke is using at the end is just some sort of astral projection lightsaber?
JVL00:35:59Well, except— You've seen it twice. I've not. Does the astral projector make contact with Kylo's? I believe it does. It does. So he's not even astral projecting. He's really—
Sonny00:36:08But the physics of this are very weird because, like, remember Kylo gets the water on his hand? Uh-huh. Yes. And they touch hands.
JVL00:36:15Yoda can call forth— He can call forth—
Sonny00:36:16It is totally— Everything you think you knew about the Jedi— It's totally incoherent. It's totally incoherent.
JVL00:36:20—is now different. None of the rules make any—none of the rules apply anymore. Everybody can do whatever power is required of the story at that moment.
Sonny00:36:28Remember how it used to be that if you jumped to hyperspace, nobody could track you, and that was like your get-out-of-jail-free card?
JVL00:36:33Do you remember how when you were in hyperspace, you couldn't communicate with anybody, which would have been very helpful as you were trying to get to Alderaan to be able to radio ahead and discover that there's nobody on Alderaan to talk to? Why was— Yes.
Vic00:36:43And now you can do ship-to-ship communication from lightspeed.
JVL00:36:48You can say, this is amazing! And also, if you can do Jedi astral projection communication FaceTime stuff, why were Vader and the Emperor always using the special space hologram stuff? Why weren't they just talking? And I understand that people will say—people who like this movie, whoever they may be, will say, oh, you're just trying to pick it apart with plot holes. You're just nitpicking. You're nitpicking the space fantasy wizard movie. I understand that, but here's what bothers me about these plot holes. Plot holes exist in the universe. To serve movie logic. In a story where you need to go from point A to point B, and the writers can't figure out how to get there, what they do is they use movie logic. And this means that when you start poking at it, you know, a little bit, it comes apart. But you use movie logic for a narrative purpose. It is there so that you can tell your story. With these problems, these plot holes, they do not even serve the needs of the story. Finn and Rose don't need to talk to Poe while they're in hyperspace. They, we got to give them a chance to come through for us. Hang in there, everybody. That's it. You don't need that conversation. And when you invite plot holes over and over, it's just like the failed payoffs. What you're doing is you're telling the audience not to care. You're saying, we don't even need to meet you halfway in this. You do all the heavy lifting because it's Star Wars, bro. We out. If. Sonny. Right? I mean, am I wrong? Here's a question. Question. Question. Question. If.
Sonny00:38:18A ship fired at hyperspeed can take out an entire empire fleet, why has this never been used before?
JVL00:38:34Hmm. That's an interesting idea. I just, I like. What if you had like a giant base that could kill stars? What if you. Or.
Sonny00:38:43What if you. What if you.
JVL00:38:44Death. What if you could say. Star killer base?
Sonny00:38:45What if you could say, buy a hyperdrive. Buy a hyperdrive in the junkyard of some garbage desert planet on the outer rim. And you could just strap it to anything.
JVL00:38:56Like a suicide bomber?
Sonny00:38:57And you could just fire it into a star destroyer with thousands of people on it that costs billions of credits.
JVL00:39:07That'd be a really effective weapon.
Sonny00:39:08Don't you think that would be a good weapon to have and use at some point in your conflict?
JVL00:39:13I have another question for you. Can I ask.
Vic00:39:15By the way, speaking of suicide bombers. Is this how we get to the Casper read? Oh no, I was going to get to, it's coming up soon, but I found it very problematic that the suicide bomber at the beginning of the movie was Asian. The Asian bomber who crashes her plane. The kamikaze. The kamikaze bomber.
Sonny00:39:35Rose's sister. Okay. Question. You know what? Problematic. Why couldn't Rose's sister have been in this movie instead of Rose?
Vic00:39:43Question.
JVL00:39:45What capitalist arms dealer. designs a bomber that can only move at a top speed of 15 miles per hour? That seems like a weapon which isn't very useful. Are they all arms dealers gambling? Question. Yes. We have watched now 17 and a half hours of Star Wars in our lives. Collected. I mean, in terms of original narrative. Of that, roughly 16 hours have been consumed with spaceships flying, shooting at one another, jumping to hyperspace. To this point, in those 16 hours, nobody has ever once mentioned fuel. Oh, it's now! Oh, I was actually wondering. Yeah, I was actually. That was an interesting thing, yes. Luke's X-Wing fighter crossed galaxies all by itself, going from Tatooine to Dan to Dagobah to Cloud City to wherever, and never needed to tank up. But here, all of a sudden, for the first time, the entire half of the narrative conflict of the entire movie is driven by concerns about spaceship fuel?
Sonny00:40:52Is worried about A.C. Cowling's running out of gas.
Vic00:40:55Oh, back to O.J. Simpson.
Sonny00:40:57Wow. What? Well, no, it is a movie that, so, the fans are trying to have it both ways, right? They're saying, how dare you question this space fantasy movie, but also, like, look at all these sci-fi elements. We got fuel and laser. Here's a question. We're running out of fuel. We're running out of fuel. Question. Why are the laser beams? Why are the bursts fired from the Star Destroyer lobbed in a parabolic arc?
JVL00:41:23Oh, because the gravity on the light makes, out in space, the gravity makes the light proton. It's gravity and the- The proton.
Sonny00:41:31My understanding is- The photons? Something gravity, you wouldn't want, if you do straight lines- Parabolas? Curvature of space, that's it. Curvature of space.
JVL00:41:42Okay, I believe in the movie Interstellar, we learn that space does curve. The closer you get to a star or a black hole or something- Right, yeah. So maybe this is actually hard sci-fi.
Sonny00:41:53What if it was dark matter? There's just dark matter everywhere. They've got to curve it around the dark matter.
Vic00:41:58What did you think of Laura Dern? Question! What did you think of Laura Dern? One more question. Yeah, go ahead.
Sonny00:42:02One more science nitpicking. Oh, yes, go ahead. So the ships are cloaked, the transport ships are cloaked, and that's the narrative purpose of why we need to get Benicio del Toro onto Hux's ship, right, is he needs to reveal that the ships are cloaked and that they're running away. Okay.
JVL00:42:18Okay.
Sonny00:42:18We don't need a 30-minute prequel-ish subplot to get there, but that's the idea. That's why he needs to be there. So, if they're cloaked, why can Rey see them with her naked eye from Snoke's throne room?
JVL00:42:32Hmm. That's a really good question. Maybe she just has better vision than everybody else, too. Yeah. She's a Jedi. It's the midichlorians that let her see through cloaking.
Vic00:42:41Midichlorians can really see it. What did you think when you saw Laura Dern?
Sonny00:42:45I thought Effie Trinket. I thought, I mean- I thought Hunger Games character.
JVL00:42:49Vice Admiral Yoga Dress?
Vic00:42:53I believe Prana may have dressed her. By the way, Snoke also wears a gold tunic. Shouldn't he be wearing black? A gold lame- Yes.
Sonny00:43:01Gold lame. He looks like a Bond villain. He's dressed like a Bond villain. He's wearing a gold lame kimono. Yes. Yes.
Vic00:43:07He's wearing a- He's literally wearing a kimono.
JVL00:43:09Okay, why? Question. Yes. JVL. So, we can communicate ship to ship while traveling faster than light. But we don't have ships that can pilot themselves. They need to have somebody standing behind to pilot them. To push the leffer. Right. Big ships. The big ships. The big ships need somebody. That Vice Admiral Yoga Dress doesn't actually pilot the ship until it's time to- She's just standing. I have to stand. I have to stay here to pilot the ship. But then she just stands around and hangs out. Question.
Sonny00:43:37She's not actually doing anything. Question. Why would you sacrifice your most important military mind in this moment instead of, say, putting C-3PO behind the- The leffer.
Vic00:43:49Hmm. Oh, dear. The odds of my survival are- Sorry. Question. How does BB-8 get into the AT-ST? He takes the stairs. Really? Does he roll himself up a ladder?
Sonny00:44:09Bounce? Does he bounce into the cockpit? Question. Why didn't the evil BB-8 call him out when they're being captured?
Vic00:44:17Right, BB-9E.
Sonny00:44:19Is that who he is? Yeah, of course, BB-9E. So, the BB-9E realizes that they are rebels because he sees the trash can on the BB-8. Why wouldn't the evil BB-8 get his guy?
Vic00:44:37Because they were brothers in the same factory.
Sonny00:44:40They went to the same school. They went to the same droid school.
Vic00:44:44They both escaped the Ugnaughts in the furnace.
Sonny00:44:47I'm excited for the Expanded Universe book about the BB-9E, where he goes through his training, and his life is saved by the BB-8. And then he realizes he can't betray him in this final moment. Because this is another thing all these goddamn Star Wars nerds say to me. It's like, oh, you want all the backstory? Read the books. F you. Your movie has failed. Your movie has failed. If I have to read a bunch of effing appendixes to explain what is happening in the film.
JVL00:45:14Question.
Sonny00:45:15Yes.
JVL00:45:17If a Jedi can astral project and go places and interact with things, why didn't Yoda do that with the weird clone water planet in Attack of the Clones, instead of taking one of his most important Jedi warriors and sidelining him for an entire movie to go and see if a clone army was being born? Oh, you mean in Kamino something?
Sonny00:45:35Yeah, Kamino, Kamino Prime, whatever.
JVL00:45:37This seems like a really, really valuable tool. Also, question. Yes. If ghost Jedi who are dead. Can interact with the real world by, like, calling forth lightning to destroy things? This would have been helpful at other points in the series, yes? Yes. For instance, in, I don't know, Palpatine's throne room? Literally. To have Yoda call down lightning and destroy something?
Sonny00:46:04Literally every other movie that has ever been made about this.
Vic00:46:07Yeah, okay. Question. Why does my back hurt? Have I not been getting enough sleep on this bed of mine? What's going on? Ah, Casper.
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Vic00:48:07Thank you, JVL. I do have one final question regarding this movie, and that is, how did Luke Skywalker die? Is it exhaustion, or did Kylo Ren manage to penetrate him? Him.
JVL00:48:18The man inside me. It's an arrested development joke. It's a book. It's a great book by Dr. Tobias Finke.
Sonny00:48:25It is entirely unclear to me, and I've seen it twice now, and I'm still not 100% sure.
Vic00:48:32He touches his side. He's like, ow.
Sonny00:48:34Well, the problem is we have no idea what the actual physics of this astral projection thing is. Obviously, you can literally take matter from one person and give it to another, as we see again with the water drops. The water. Yes. And they can touch. But it is not clear to me if he made a choice of his own free will to astral depart, or if he was mortally wounded by Kylo Ren. I just don't really know.
Vic00:49:05Okay. Do we have more Star Wars thoughts? Oh, yeah. Okay. Go for it, JBL. We haven't even talked about the humor. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. Well, like I said, more like as Gene pointed out, Mark Hamill was joking.
JVL00:49:17It is clearly Kathleen Kennedy saw Guardians of the Galaxy and said, you know what? We need some of that in this movie, right? Because this is Guardians of the Galaxy style humor. Now, this is not a complaint exactly, because I am not one of those people who says that, like, you know, every Star Wars movie needs to adhere to all of the styles that preexist in the Star Wars canon. I don't believe that. In fact, I believe the opposite.
Sonny00:49:41And the Star Wars movies have always been funny. They've been funny, but different kinds of funny. Yes. They've been organically funny. Right.
JVL00:49:48And these are sort of fourth wall breaking funny.
Sonny00:49:52From the very beginning. These are shoddy sitcom jokes.
Vic00:49:56The whole Hux Poe. Hux and Poe, your mom. The whole Hux Poe conference.
Sonny00:50:02It's not even, like, there's a similar kind of moment at the start of The Force Awakens when Poe says to Kylo, you know, do you go first? Do I go first? Right. But that feels, again, it feels right. And organic in the moment. This feels like shtick from the Big Bang Theory, where they're doing what Americans in 2017 do on conference calls. I've never seen a phone on a starship.
JVL00:50:34In fairness, I believe if you go back to the original Star Wars A New Hope, in the conference table scene where they are all sitting clearly on surplus chairs from Staples, there may be a conference phone in the middle. Oh, that little black droid thing. It's possible that that is a conference phone.
Sonny00:50:49But the point is, he is doing very era-specific shtick, and it's weird.
JVL00:50:58I'm Nice Men is funny. Oh my gosh. Great line. Right? I mean, this is what I say. There is high-level wordplay in Star Wars which gives humor and makes things funny. How are you? This is, as you say, sitcom-y stuff. And it's like, that's it. But it does read to me. It does read to me as an attempt at Guardians of the Galaxy. No? Am I wrong?
Sonny00:51:22I don't even know if it's that. I just think that Rian Johnson doesn't understand or doesn't care about the humor. But I don't think that's right either, because there is humor in the film that works well. The Porgs, for instance, which had been targeted as an object of derision ahead of time, actually, I think, work very well within the context of the... They're not characters. They're just... They're like Tribbles, almost. They are Tribbles. I mean, but they are like... It's not Jar Jar Binks. It's a setting. They are setting. They are like added bits. The Jedi nuns are my favorite thing in this movie, maybe. Like, the put-upon Jedi nuns who are angry that they have to put together the houses that these asshole Jedi keep destroying. Like, that's actually funny and actual good Star Wars humor. Yeah, I would agree. And I...
Vic00:52:13I don't think they were CGI'd either. I think the nuns, they were...
Sonny00:52:17The nuns looked practical. ...puppety. Yeah. The nuns looked practical. The porg were definitely CGI. Yeah, yeah. But, like, those are things that, like, they work. They work within the universe of Star Wars. And, like, all these... Again, all these effing people who are like, oh, well, you just don't like it because it's different. Well, no, look, if you want to make a different space opera movie, we've got that. We've got Guardians of the Galaxy. You can make other... But if you want to say, like, this Star Wars movie isn't like Star Wars and that's a good thing, that's wrong. That's just... I'm sorry, that's objectively wrong. If you want to make a Star Wars movie... It should feel like the other Star Wars movies. And I don't feel like an outraged fanboy saying this because I like a lot of the things that they do that are different here. I like the disillusionment of Luke. I like the idea of Luke as this hermit who is angry, who has failed, who has failed repeatedly over and over and over again, and he realizes his life is a disaster. His life is a waste. His whole mission has been wrong. He has brought ruin to the galaxy. I totally agree. I love all that stuff. I think it's great. I think it's... I think this idea that the Jedi Order needs to end is a good one. And this is why I don't mind the Yoda stuff. Like, aside from the lightning striking, you know, whatever. Like, I don't mind Yoda being like, end the Jedi must, or whatever nonsense he says. I think it's like, it's an idea. It's a way to move the story forward. Yeah, I would agree with that.
JVL00:53:38I would agree with that.
Sonny00:53:38And so, you know, there are people who are complaining like, oh, I can't believe Luke would do all these things. Well, I can believe it. His life's a mess. His life is a total mess and disaster, and it is not unreasonable that he would feel like a failure.
JVL00:53:55Everything in his life since Death Star 2 blew up when he was 35 years old has been bad, right? I mean, the galaxy is not the Wonderland he had hoped it would be. He failed at setting up a new Jedi Academy. He has trained a new generation of Sith. Essentially, right. And lost his godson after trying to kill him. I mean, yeah.
Vic00:54:17And do we believe Kylo or Luke's version of the, oh, no, I had the saber, but I was trying to kill, but then I changed my mind, or Kylo's version, which was he was trying to kill me, right? There's two. They both said, did he tell you what happened? Well, Luke lied.
Sonny00:54:32Luke lied the first time, and he admits he lied. I mean, I think the synthesis of the two versions that Luke offers.
JVL00:54:37Yeah, Kylo's is correct from his point of view. Yes. And Luke's is correct from his.
Vic00:54:41If only they could dialogue, then we would have been.
JVL00:54:44So, can I read one more? This is a small thing. This is a small thing, but it is, again, indicative to me of a movie that is compromised in every level. Yes, JV. When we are on Hoth, not Hoth, at the end, a rebel commander comes out. Salt. It's a salt planet. He reaches down and touches the white, licks it, and then says, salt. This line exists to counter fan criticism.
Sonny00:55:07That it was like Hoth.
JVL00:55:08That it was just like Hoth. Literally, there's no reason to have this line in there, except that they think somebody is going to complain. That, oh, they're just doing another white planet battle, just like Hoth again. And they want to say, no, salt, not snow. Totally different.
Sonny00:55:27It's unnecessary. I have a whole series of complaints about this, but they can be summed up in one about 15-second stretch, where Rey comes in on the Millennium Falcon on the salt planet, and she's blasting away at the lasers, and she yells to Chewie, we need to draw the fight fighters off, and then she comes in blasting and draws the fighters off, and then Poe Dameron says, she's drawing all the fighters off. We have been given the same piece of information three times, and it's so unnecessary and so sloppy that I'm like, I'm kind of baffled by it. I don't, do they think we're stupid? Do they think we need this over and over and over again?
JVL00:56:15No, this is why I'm saying, my... When I opened with this, I believe Rian Johnson was overmatched by this project, and what resulted is an indie director who has never worked with a budget of more than $25 million who simply could not handle the demands of what this project requires at any level, at the script level, at the production level, or the editing level. I'm sure he's a great guy. I actually like some of his other work, but just, it was a bad fit for the job. He probably shouldn't have taken this job. They shouldn't have given the job to him, and to the extent that this movie is a cavalcade of failures, all of them go to him, because the script is him, and the direction is him.
Vic00:56:58Is it a love triangle or a love pentagon between Ray and- You forgot the question. The question is it between Ray and Finn and Rose and Kylo and Poe Dameron? What's happening here? There's only one way this ends. Episode nine.
JVL00:57:14Ray and Rose.
Sonny00:57:17Kylo and Finn, Ray and Rose. Finn and Poe.
JVL00:57:21Well, Finn and Poe, obviously. They have like a tryst, but they realize that-
Sonny00:57:26No, it's like they already have a bromance. Their love won't be accepted by the rest of the resistance, so they have to settle for-
Vic00:57:31Yeah, on a forbidden planet.
JVL00:57:33Okay. Do we have any more Star Wars thoughts? We'll probably bring back Star Wars more. There'll probably be more reaction in the episode we do without you.
Sonny00:57:44Maybe we can bring Kristen Soltis Anderson. She didn't seem to like it either.
JVL00:57:48So, Kristen emails me at like one in the morning on Thursday, and her email is, I hope you enjoy seeing Harry Potter and the Curse of Battlestar Galactica. Wow. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.
Vic00:58:03100%. Yeah. Accurate. That's fantastic.
Sonny00:58:05I mean, it really is that Battlestar Galactica episode where they're slowly running away.
JVL00:58:10And where they're tracked through hyperspace, right? This is episode two of Battlestar Galactica. Season one, episode two is 33 minutes.
Sonny00:58:17Can I suggest, all right, so I've already suggested a Leia fix, I mean, because we need a Leia fix, because- Sure do. Can I suggest one small fix for the thief slash hacker subplot? Sure. So, if you look back to Empire Strikes Back, you have essentially three plot lines, like two main plot lines and one small plot line, right? You have Luke and his training. You have Han. You have Han and Leia trying to get away, and then you have Darth Vader kind of tracking them and trying to figure out where everybody is. In this movie, you have four subplots. You have the small one with Kylo trying to figure out where everybody is, but then you have Rey, and you have Poe and the fleet, and then you have Finn and Rose. And so, I think that your description from earlier is a little bit off, insofar as I kind of sub-thing, tying them all up. So, instead of having the whole Finn and Rose subplot, let's take that off the board. And when Finn meets Rose, instead of him and her going off on an adventure, she just takes him to a brig where the thief is, who has been arrested for doing something underhanded earlier. And he convinces them, the thief, the Benicio Del Toro character convinces them that he can get them onto the ship. That he's got the power to do this, he's got the skill. And when he gets there, it turns out that he had a tracking device all along. And that's how they were tracking them through hyperspace. That's good, but I could go you one better.
JVL01:00:00Okay. Finn dies. And so, what we do is we begin with upping the stakes by realizing that, holy crap, beloved characters that they're telling us that we should care about could die at any minute. And that we don't have to have Rose. Or Thief. Or any of it.
Sonny01:00:18I am totally on board with Finn dying.
JVL01:00:21We skip the tracking, and we just say the fleet is running out of, the fleet was trying to flee, but they didn't have enough fuel to jump to hyperspace.
Sonny01:00:28Here's a second idea that I have. Idea! On how to, idea! On how to prove this. Suggestion! I hated the Finn and Rose subplot the whole movie. Until right at the end, where it looks like Finn is going to sacrifice himself. I thought, okay, good. I could buy this. I could feel the emotions welling up in me. He's going to melt away. Thank God, thank God Rian Johnson saved us from that, by having Rose crash into his ship and save both of them. I was so close to feeling something about those characters.
JVL01:01:03And now I'm wondering, I worry that she may not make it, because she looks like she's in the, again. Oh, wait a minute. She lives. Going back to the same well again with, hey, here's a character that you're supposed to care about, but you don't care about, and maybe she's dead.
Vic01:01:17I don't know. He's going to die. She bumps him off. Then you think she's going to die. Oh, no, she's going to make it, too, because everybody seems to make it. So everything's great. I'm sure it's fine. Okay. Sorry, is it going that way? That's not the end of the show. Okay. All right, should we move on? Move on. That's an hour. That's an hour. It's a good show. More than an hour. Well, let's skip everything. I know people wanted us to do, or other people talked about Christmas-themed things, where songs ever, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I think that's already been resolved.
Sonny01:01:49We don't have time for that. No time for that.
Vic01:01:50The Expanded Universe has resolved that. I'm just going to say one thing to the Expanded Universe, which is, all I want for Christmas is my tooth-front teeth by Spike Jonze and the City Slickers. Go check YouTube. I dare you to listen to the whole song from beginning to end. It is the worst song ever. Okay. That is the worst. No one denies this. Oh, really? You know what I'm talking about? No. He does the kid's voice. Oh, I'm missing my teeth. I hate it. It's the most awful thing ever.
JVL01:02:19Okay. I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, I dare you. The royalties for that piece of garbage. There is somewhere, there is a sole heir of the Jonze estate who every year cashes a check for $35,000 in royalties that come from that thing. Because if you want to get rich in the world, just to make a Christmas song that becomes moderately popular, and it's like an annuity for forever. Forever. Forever.
Vic01:02:44Okay. Spirit of the Week. This is exciting. Is Old Forrester Statesman, as we mentioned, as we haven't mentioned yet, as we might mention in Facebook Live. No, I mentioned it earlier in the show. Oh, good. From our friends in the Substandard Expanded Universe, Tom Abella and friends have given us this wonderful bottle. Thank you very much for listening to us this past year. We've made it through a year. One year.
Sonny01:03:20Do you think there are going to be any 2018 episodes, Vic?
Vic01:03:24I don't think so, but I wish you luck. Corrections, additions, anything? No. Nothing. I have nothing either. Okay, good. That's all the time we're going to give to this episode. Questions, comments, complaints, compliments. Questions! Tweet us at Victorino Matus at SonnyBunch. At JBLast. Again, be sure to subscribe to us on iTunes or Google Play. Just type in Substandard or Podcast. We're there. Leave a review. And let's try to break 500 so maybe the remnant can stop bothering us because they're tormenting us. Tell your friends, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, see you next year, maybe. Did you already tell on our show your Benicio Del Toro experience? Have we discussed this on the Substandard? I feel like we have at some point. Would you see him? Do you immediately think? Do you immediately think back to your intimate moment with him at Oyamel? I feel bad about that.
Sonny01:04:21Look, if we haven't discussed this before, I interviewed Benicio Del Toro for the Che tour. And I came with a bunch of questions about Che.
Vic01:04:33Questions?
Sonny01:04:36Che, the...
JVL01:04:38So you went full Veritas?
Sonny01:04:40I went, I mean, look, I did not, no, it was not an ambush. It was just a, it was like an interview.
JVL01:04:46Did you say? Question! With each one. No. Because that would have been so hot.
Sonny01:04:50No, no, no, no. I, I, look, I, I don't like ambushing actors because I don't think actors are, like, necessarily responsible for the movies that they're in. They're just actors. But he was a producer on the film. It wouldn't have been made without him. And I wanted to talk to him about, like, look, Che is, Che Guevara, not a good guy. And the lionization and kind of deification of Che, I think, is like one of the more grotesque aspects of modern liberalism. Fine. It didn't go well. He walked out of the interview. He, and the interview took place, the interview took place at a party at Oyamel. And guess who, who was the chef? And Jose Andres is there. He, like, comes over with, like, guacamole for the two of us. And he's like, hey. Anyway, it was, it was, um.
JVL01:05:38Is it the only time somebody's walked out of an interview with you?
Sonny01:05:41Oh, yeah. Because I'm not a, I'm not a Mike Wallace. I'm not there asking the tough questions usually. This was a special occasion because I feel, I feel like, look, uh, uh, as somebody who is a big fan of, um, uh, Valladares and other Cuban exiles, I, like, I, I feel a certain responsibility to, like, actually discuss what, what the Cuban revolution meant. And this, this absurd, you know, Che thing was, anyway.
Vic01:06:09Long story short. How did you realize he just walked up in front of you and left?
Sonny01:06:14No, he was just like, uh, this is, this is over. This, I'm leaving. I can't remember. I, I would have to read the story again. He was like. I'm flipping for real. I'm flipping. If. I'm flipping for real. I'm flipping. And, uh. Jump on in. I love you. I felt really bad because I actually. Oh, come on. A little something for that. Yeah. The usual suspects. Very good. I love Benicio Del Toro as an actor. I think he's very talented. I thought he was good in this movie. I thought he was better than you clearly thought, JBL. Uh, but I, but it was, yeah, no, I do. Every time I see him now, I'm like, ah, what happened to the restaurant?
Vic01:06:42What did they say to you? They brought food out and everything.
Sonny01:06:45Oh, well, no, the, well, the, uh. The publicist. The publicist I was, who had like set up the thing, came over to me after he left and she said, uh, the party hosts have asked me to leave. They wouldn't ask me to leave because I was the journalist, but they asked her to leave and I felt, I felt so bad about it. I just like, like, anyway, it's, it's, it's on the internet. If you just Google Sonny Bunch. Is there a video? del Toro and of the interview no no no
JVL01:07:16no I'm sure it's fine
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