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#81. The Substandard on Justice League woes and ... hugs?
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Micro episode (12:47). All three hosts present.
Dudes Chatting — John Lasseter and the Justice League collapse: Justice League dropped over 56% in its second weekend, falling to #2 with $40M behind Pixar's Coco at #1 with $49M. The hosts discuss the John Lasseter allegations: the reported misconduct involved unwanted hugs and leg-touching; separately, Rashida Jones quit Toy Story 4 citing concerns about racial diversity in the writers' room rather than harassment. JVL speculates Lasseter may be on the autism spectrum. On Justice League: a fan petition to see the film six times is circulating; Sonny says he would pay to see Zack Snyder's original cut with Junkie XL and Hans Zimmer's score rather than Danny Elfman's. JVL reiterates his position that DC needs a full reboot — Superman's origin first, then Batman — and briefly wonders whether Warner Bros. could suffer a collapse analogous to United Artists after Heaven's Gate.
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to another micro-episode of The Substandard, sponsored by DonorsTrust. I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Just a quick reminder that full episodes of TheSubstandard are available every Thursday at 11 a.m. Well, Justice League continues to dominate the box office.
Sonny00:00:27Oh no, wait, that's not it.
Vic00:00:30Uh, actually, I believe it dropped by a little more than 56% week to week. This is only its second week, isn't it?
Sonny00:00:39Yeah, second weekend. It could have been worse.
Vic00:00:40It came in second. That's true. We said 60%. It came in second with, in second rather, with 40 million was Coco, which did 49 million.
JVL00:00:53I'm actually surprised the parents took their children to see that, knowing that John Lasseter is involved in that movie. What sort of message are they sending to the children? The message is, I like hugs.
Sonny00:01:03Well, I didn't, I didn't, so, I actually... What's wrong with hugs? Oh, come on.
Vic00:01:06It's all you. Have the allegations been more than hugs?
Sonny00:01:10It's a very weird story, because there was a Hollywood reporter story about John Lasseter that was like, he's stepping away because he needs... And then, like, all of the accusations were like, he would touch people's legs, and he would, like, give, like, awkward hugs. Oh, yeah. But, but, and then there was also a very specific, like, Rashida Jones and her writing partner quit Toy Story 4 because of his... Sexual harassment, and she actually took to the pages of Hollywood Reporter to say, no, that's not true, we quit because they're racist, not because he's a sexual harasser. So, like, there was a...
JVL00:01:40Wow, because I didn't actually read Rashida Jones, she said they quit because who's racist, Lasseter's racist?
Sonny00:01:44She said, well, they're, they're, she said that they quit because Pixar has not committed to hiring people of color in directorial and writing roles. I think only one woman has directed a Pixar movie, only one non-white person, or something. I don't, I don't, I'll be honest, I kind of skipped it.
Vic00:02:01I'm still waiting for my call.
Sonny00:02:03But it was definitely, but it was like, she was definitely like, they definitely, she did not touch me inappropriately, they're just racist. Which is like a big win for Pixar, I guess. I don't know.
JVL00:02:12You know what is unsaid in all of this, and seems at least possible to me, is that the answer is that Lasseter is on the spectrum. Yes, stuff is born of inability, right? I mean, nobody seems to accept this. You know what? I don't know.
Vic00:02:25I'm with you on this. I saw a Jay Leno's Garage. I saw a Jay Leno's Garage episode, and Jay visited John Lasseter at his place in, I don't know if it's Emeryville or wherever it is, and he has this estate, I think he even has a vineyard, and he has a train, a little choo-choo goes all the way around. It was kind of, and he wears a Pixar train. Silver Spoon style. Silver, because it's Silver Spoon.
Sonny00:02:50What's Silver Spoons?
Vic00:02:53Silver Spoons was a sitcom on NBC. Starring Aaron Gray. Yes, very good. And of course, Ricky Schroeder, and a young Jason Bateman, who is Ricky Schroeder's buddy, Derek, and he was a military academy brat, his father was a millionaire, he comes home to live with his father. Why are we talking about this? And the train. It doesn't matter. And the train cut through the dining room, like the living room, and that was it. There was no space in that house. If you look at the opening credits.
JVL00:03:24That show had two sets, literally two sets. Right. It was the rec room and then the dining room.
Vic00:03:27The racing car bed. And every now and then there was a game room scene, but in any event, John Lasseter's train goes all the way around the entire state, but it was kind of a weird thing to have, and he operated the train, and he was wearing an engineer's outfit, so he's into that. So anyway, to add to what you're saying, JVL, well, didn't you think of this as you were- He seemed like, he was kind of like a child in many ways, in an adorable way.
Sonny00:03:55I didn't read anything in that story. I've never seen, I've never actually seen John Lasseter. I've never seen John Lasseter in person or on television, so I have no idea what he's like, but there's nothing in that story that jumped out to me as, like, spectrum-y. It jumped out to me as, like, he likes to touch. He's a toucher. Like, that doesn't, you know, that's not necessarily always a bad thing. There are good touchers and bad touchers, but he seems- Well, you elaborate on bad touch, Sonny. He feels like he was headed towards the bad touch territory. I don't know.
JVL00:04:20So as I know nothing about this other than what I read in the Hollywood reporter piece, it sounded to me like somebody who does not have the ability to take. So- Social cues. Yeah. And is just sort of, like, has weird- Yeah. I also think that we have a- Things going on. But whatever. I don't know what I know.
Sonny00:04:35We have a tendency to just, like, write too many things off to being, like, weird and autistic. Like, we, this is a weird societal thing that we have. As sort of an excuse. Yeah, that's like, oh, he's just on the spectrum, so, you know, he can't help it. He can, uh, uh. I think he's, I think he's, you know-
Vic00:04:49Sorry, you missed this, but they'll see it on Facebook Live.
Sonny00:04:51I saw it. Oh, I saw it. Yeah.
Vic00:04:53Okay. I saw it. Back to Justice League. Let me ask you a question. What was the budget? Because it doesn't show on Box Office Mojo. What do people say the budget was?
Sonny00:05:02Yes. The reported budget is $300 million.
Vic00:05:04Okay. $300 million. So, worldwide, it has done, so far, $481 million. So, we're all good, right? It's great.
Sonny00:05:11That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
JVL00:05:13Please elaborate. So, here's the saddest thing in the world. I saw this over the weekend, and I'm trying to put it on Facebook, and I can't. So, I'm just going to put a link to my tweet. On Twitter was circulating a petition saying, Help our heroes. Justice League opens to the lowest box office of the DCEU yet. Rumors about the franchise's future abound, but DC fans know the foundation of this universe is hope. Hope is a weapon. Is that, actually? Are rebellions built on hope? Rebellions are built on hope. Whatever. We are launching Six for the Six. We are asking every DC fan to commit to seeing this film six times or more while it's in theaters for the future of DC. Of these characters. The expectation is hundreds of millions of dollars in box office returns, because if every DCEU fan saw this six times, we'd be looking at, what, hundreds of dollars. But we hope to get WB's attention to let them know that we love these characters. Our heroes have been there for us. Now it's time to be there for them.
Sonny00:06:18So, who knows how real this is, if it's like a copy-pasta kind of parody thing, or if it's a legitimate sad plea for help from, you know, the dozens of DCEU fans. But this is amusing on a number of levels, again, just as a function of, you know, is this parody or is it not? Is it real? The fact that we can't tell is sad in and of itself, because fandom is terrible. Fandom, just as a general construct, is bad and broken and should be destroyed. Also, do we actually, so here's my real question here is, do we actually want a concerted effort made to save this cinematic universe?
JVL00:07:07No. The only way to save it is to kill it.
Sonny00:07:11The only way to save DC movies, in general.
JVL00:07:15Is to kill them and start over again.
Vic00:07:17With new actors. Different actors, same actors.
JVL00:07:20Well, I mean, different actors, sure, but also different producers, different directors, sorry, different writers. I mean, it is clear now that this universe is stillborn. And there is no, you can't gut it out. What are they going to spend? I mean, this is $300 million to make, another $150 million to market, maybe, just to muscle it to a $95 million opening. Are you going to spend $450 million on every DC movie? No. Are we going to get, is Aquaman going to be $4 million? No. So just stop. Stop now. Go back to the drawing board and try to do something interesting. And try to do it without thinking about Marvel. I mean, this is the big problem, is they hear the footsteps. Yes.
Sonny00:08:04I mean, the problem, part of the problem here is that they actually did try to do something interesting. I know that I'm in the minority here, but I do think that there is a vision for these movies. And when the studio kind of steps back a little, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I would pay cash money. I would watch it six times in the theater. I would make that promise right now to see the original cut of this film with a score by Junkie XL and Hans Zimmer instead of the mishmash that we got on the screen. It couldn't be worse. It couldn't possibly be worse. The original cut of this film.
JVL00:08:49I think this was the original cut.
Sonny00:08:50No. There just isn't. This is the Zack Snyder.
JVL00:08:54I mean, there was no original cut because Snyder left the picture before it was finished.
Sonny00:08:58Well, so this is the problem. I mean, like, it's hard to... So when I say the original cut, I mean, this is a cut that could be made. When I say the original cut, I mean, like, a cut of the film from the original shooting script. I would like to see... I would just like to read the original shooting script. What did they shoot? I want to know that. What, Anna?
Guest00:09:15Have you seen the position for the...
Sonny00:09:18Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I... The problem is that who knows how good any of that could have been. I don't know. The only one of these movies... Look, I still think Man of Steel works very well. I agree. I like Man of Steel. And I think Wonder Woman works very well. And I think the director's cut... Wonder Woman's okay. The director's cut of Batman v Superman has its issues, but it is still a good and interesting movie with, like, an actual idea behind it and some real, like, kind of interesting stuff going on. And, you know, Suicide Squad was bad, but it was...
JVL00:09:58So what you're saying is we have a cinematic universe which has one B-plus movie, one B-minus movie, and then a bunch of failures, and that... But I would say... There's something to salvage here? No, I don't think there is.
Sonny00:10:12I would suggest the problem is not that they didn't have interesting ideas or that they didn't try something interesting. I mean, if anything, the lesson from Marvel is try less interesting stuff.
JVL00:10:22And I think the lesson is clear. We need to start over and give us a Superman origin story. I mean, we just need to reintroduce audiences to this character wholesale. Because nobody knows where he came from. And then after that, we do the Batman origin story.
Sonny00:10:38Obviously, we need a Superman origin story, then a Batman origin story, then a Spider-Man... Oh, wait, sorry. Wrong universe.
Vic00:10:45Would they have a different Spider-Man, or do you like Henry Cavill? A different Spider-Man. Okay, but... You know what, though? I hope they keep Lex Luthor. Lex Luthor is Kevin Spacey.
JVL00:10:57Look, for me, the problem isn't even the actor. I don't think the actors are particularly well-cast or very helpful in any of them. But on the other hand, I think that's the least of their problems, right? I mean, the least of their problems is the guy playing Cyborg. That's not... Right? I mean, this is... Ray Fisher Price. Ray Fisher Price. These are foundational problems with how the universe itself is conceived. And, I mean... Whatever. It's so bad. But things are bad. I mean, this is the other thing. I do want to underscore for people, this is a real... Like, things are bad out there, right? I mean, the Warner Brothers lot, there's panic. This is the type of thing. Warner Brothers was supposed to be purchased by AT&T. The Justice Department looks like they're going to block that. I mean, this is a corporate culture of the studio, which is now in massive disarray. And Warner Brothers goes under or something? Like, who knows? Like, this can actually happen, you know? In the same way that Fox was looking to get rid of the Fox... Like, it is not real. It's not written in stone anywhere that there have to be five major studios. It could happen, and Justice League could be the thing that kills it in the way that United Artists was killed by... Heaven's Gate. Heaven's Gate.
Sonny00:12:06We need Disney to buy Warner Brothers, and then we can get the Marvel vs. DC cinematic universe that we've always needed, leading to the Amalgam.
JVL00:12:14Do you remember the comic book?
Sonny00:12:15Oh, yeah, of course. That was, like, the height of my...
JVL00:12:18That is the worst.
Sonny00:12:18Literally the worst thing that's ever happened to comic books.
JVL00:12:20The worst thing ever happening in comic books. So, as a kid, I just knew, oh, this looks awesome, and then it was terrible. As an adult, I look at that, and I want to understand how the IP management happened, and whose idea it was, and where the payoffs were, and how the revenue was split. Like, how did all those concerns get ironed out? That's a great question.
Sonny00:12:42Yeah. I'm sure someone sat down in a boardroom and was like, we can do all this, and it'll be fine.
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