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#43. The Substandard Ranks the Batmen
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Dudes Chatting — ranking the Batmen, occasioned by Adam West's death: Adam West died on June 9, 2017, at 88, and the micro-episode serves as a tribute and prompt for Batman rankings. Sonny appreciates West's self-aware quality — his ability to be in on the joke, most famously in his long-running role on Family Guy and a memorable turn as a school nemesis on The Adventures of Pete and Pete. JVL is harsher: he argues that West's campy performance made Batman radioactive as a property for twenty years and set DC's most valuable character back a generation — "worse than Booster Gold, worse than the death and sleep of Superman." Vic enjoyed the original series on its own terms and loved the villain roster (Burgess Meredith as the Penguin, Cesar Romero as the Joker, Frank Gorshin as the Riddler, Vincent Price as Egghead). JVL's ranking goes Christian Bale, Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, Ben Affleck, Will Arnett (Lego Batman), Kevin Conroy (animated), Jason O'Mara, George Clooney, and Adam West last. Sonny builds a three-axis analytical framework — definitiveness of the Batman, quality of the Bruce Wayne performance, and quality of the surrounding product — and arrives at Christian Bale first and George Clooney last, with JVL agreeing on Bale at the top. Vic, who has never read a Batman comic, ranks Adam West first on pure nostalgia and George Clooney last. No box office or reviews segment.
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello, and welcome to another micro-episode of The Substandard, sponsored by Dollar Shave Club. I'm Victor Matus, along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Just a quick reminder that full episodes of The Substandard are available every Thursday at 11 a.m., and Substandard show notes are posted by Jonathan Last most every Friday at weeklystandard.com. So, sadly, on June 9, we lost the great Adam West, the first Batman. He was 88, born William West Anderson. West actually studied under Lee Strasberg. Did you know that? Interesting. He studied under Hyman Roth, and he did both TV and film before landing the role of a lifetime as the Batman. Turns out to be the only role, but that happens. The show, interestingly, only ran for three seasons. But in its first two seasons, it aired twice a week, much like The Substandard. Yes. So, of course, this brings us to our rankings of Batman and our thoughts of Batman, Adam West, Sonny.
Sonny00:01:13Well, I did want to just say a few brief words about Adam West, who, it's not just the Batman. We'll talk about his Batman in a minute. What I really like about Adam West is how he kind of, could you please stop clinking that goddamn ice? I mean, I know somebody said that they like hearing that, but it is really, really annoying in my ears. Just stop.
Vic00:01:38How about this? After I drink, can I be like a tribute to someone who's got like this?
Sonny00:01:42This is going to be the worst episode ever.
Vic00:01:47LOL, Sonny.
Sonny00:01:48What I loved about Adam West is how he really leaned into being the kind of Batman, like, you would see him pop up in other things and he would basically just be playing a thinly veiled version of Batman. He would be playing Adam West playing Batman, and this is probably, of course, most famous on Family Guy. He has like a long-running supporting part, but I loved him in a small Nickelodeon show called Pete and Pete, The Adventures of Pete and Pete, which is kind of a seminal program to nerds of a certain age set, basically born between 1981 and 1985 or so. It was on Nickelodeon. It was very, very popular. Pete and Pete? Yeah, he played like... He was like the high school principal or something, and he was little Pete's nemesis. Anyway, so anyway, I will miss Adam West, and I admire his ability to kind of be in on the joke. Yes.
JVL00:02:44Or, another way of saying it is you admire his ability to spend 50 years cashing in on one horrible performance. Yeah, basically. So he's like the Scott Baio of superhero movies. Well, superhero TV shows, but sure. It was a movie. But really- There was a Batman movie. Well, that's true. No, no, he's Scott Baio. He's Scott Baio. And, you know, the other thing I admire about him is that he took an iconic character and crapped all over it in such spectacular fashion that it took 20 years. 20- Hey, Vic, what time it is? 408. 20 f***ing years for DC Comics to get the crap cleaned off of it and to let the character take roots and become viable again. You could argue that Adam West is the single worst thing. To ever happen to DC Comics. Worse than Booster Gold. Worse than the death and sleep of Superman. Worse than infinite identity crisis wars. Worse than the comic book bubble of the early 90s. Adam West took DC's most valuable property and he made it radioactive for a generation. But yeah, no, other than that, he's great.
Vic00:03:46I thought you were going to say, oh, I love him for his campy shtick and it was great how he played it up and everything and the iconic Batman. You weren't going to say that?
Sonny00:03:54No.
JVL00:03:56No. Okay. I'm sure he's a fine, fine man and a wonderful- He's a wonderful human being who is missed by his family and friends and you should never speak ill of the dead. Okay.
Vic00:04:08Okay.
JVL00:04:09So, not telling- But Vic, what did you think?
Vic00:04:12I liked it for what it was. You loved all the Burt Ward stories, right? But I never collected- Did you read that book? I didn't read the book. I read- What, most journals? Do we read reviews? No, we read the reviews of the book and that's pretty much it.
Sonny00:04:23I don't read novels. I read literary criticism.
Vic00:04:25But look, it ran from 66 to 68. That was a wild time. On and off the set. What I liked were the bat villains, like Vincent Price, who played Egghead. Exactly, Batman. Excellent. And- Burgess Meredith? Burgess Meredith was, of course- Burgess Meredith was the penguin. He was the penguin and Cesar Romero was the Joker and Frank Gorshin was the Riddler. And Frank Gorshin had a long afterlife doing Vegas, Atlantic City, stand-up and shtick.
JVL00:04:52He was- And Julie Newmar. He was-
Vic00:04:54Yes. And Eartha Kitt later as the cat-
JVL00:04:57Women.
Vic00:04:59But what I was going to say, I loved the Simpsons spoof of Batman and Robin and the fake villain was the Scoutmaster. Do you remember this? Get him, boys. Get him, boys. And he clearly resembled Paul Lynde, who I remember from the Hollywood Squares. And it was very- The voice, everything, it was very, very funny. So, we need to get to our Batman rankings. Batman rankings.
JVL00:05:23Go ahead, JVL. Number one, Christian Bale. Number two, Michael Keaton. Number three, Val Kilmer. Number four, Ben Affleck. Number five, Will Arnett, the Lego Batman. Number six, Kevin Conroy, who does Batman in some of the video games. Number seven, Jason O'Mara, who also does some video games. And I know who's at the end. Number eight, George Clooney. Number nine, some guy on YouTube who's cosplaying Batman. Number ten, Adam West. Rest in peace.
Sonny00:05:50Thank you. Wait, my one big complaint with this is you would put Job over Kevin Conroy, who did the Batman, he's the voice of Batman in Batman, the animated series. That's f***ing stupid. No, no, you're a millennial. You're a millennial. Millennials are in love with Batman, the animated series. Job's Batman was... Wait, I'm sorry, you have a problem with campy, stupid humor Batman of Adam West, and you think Job's Batman is good? I didn't say good. Oh, yeah. I didn't say good. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I didn't realize that that was better than the guy doing the TV show on YouTube or whatever.
JVL00:06:24On this list, good stops at number two.
Sonny00:06:27All right, good.
JVL00:06:27After Michael Keaton, they're all bad.
Sonny00:06:29So you're a blatant hypocrite. No, I'm telling you, they're all bad. Ben Affleck is not good. Here's the problem with your list, is that there's no science to it. I've applied science to my list. Oh, boy. Please, tell me. Sonny, tell me science. I have a three-axis... I see an Excel sheet. I have a three-axis measure of quality here. On the one hand, you have the definitiveness of the Batman, okay? Like, how definitive is his Batman? Number two, how well he played Bruce Wayne. This is an important thing. And number three, the quality of the actual products that they're in. The quality of the TV shows or the movies that they're actually in. Dead last with a total ranking of zero is George Clooney. There's nothing definitive about his Batman. He was terrible as Bruce Wayne, and Batman and Robin is the worst movie that was ever made. Second to last is Val Kilmer. Zero, again, for his definitiveness of Batman. I couldn't tell you a single thing about Batman forever, except for the fact that Jim Carrey was actually kind of crazy and good in it. Two for his Bruce Wayne. I actually kind of like his Bruce Wayne. He has these blank psychopath eyes that are pretty fantastic. And next up is Ben Affleck. Three for his definitiveness of Batman. I like his crazy murder-verse Batman. I do like the just machine-gunning all the criminals and stuff in Batman v Superman. That's fantastic. And I actually think he's a pretty good Bruce Wayne. I thought Ben Affleck's best trait in Batman v Superman was his turn as Bruce Wayne. Kind of like brooding, post-Jason Todd death Bruce Wayne. Let's see. Kevin Con... No, I'm sorry. After Ben Affleck is Adam West. Adam West is right in the middle of the pack. He is the definitive campy Batman. Now, you can say whether or not this is a good or bad thing, but it is a thing.
JVL00:08:18That's like being the definitive genocidal dictator.
Sonny00:08:21This is a way that people will think of Batman, whether or not you like it. Because of him and it's wrong. This is how people see it.
Vic00:08:28Why can't you?
Sonny00:08:29Because he's so angry. His Bruce Wayne was middle of the road. Kind of this weird waspy, you know, 60s parties guy.
JVL00:08:37His Bruce Wayne is Hugh Hefner. Yeah. That does not fit with the character at all.
Sonny00:08:41That's not a terrible... That's not a terrible...
Vic00:08:43The character in your fantasies, JVL. The character is in your dreams.
Sonny00:08:47But not the character that is. This is just in your mind. Third best Batman is Kevin Conroy, who has the definitive voice of Batman. He is the voice... Whenever I'm reading a Batman comic book, I hear Kevin Conroy's voice in my name. Or voice in my head. His Bruce Wayne is fine. And the quality is very high. I mean, honestly, Batman the Animated Series is probably the second best run of Batman properties. I guess maybe third best after the Michael Keaton Batmans, who's number two. Michael Keaton Batman, number two. He's an okay Batman. He was an okay Bruce Wayne. And the Tim Burton Batmans were both very good. He is more of a kind of a standard of quality. He's very kind of good to mediocre throughout. And I can respect that. And best, of course, is Christian Bale. His Batman is okay, but I think he does the definitive Bruce Wayne. Because he's basically playing... Everyone says that Bruce Wayne is the mask that Batman wears to throw people off the scent, whatever. But really, the Nolan Batman movies are all about a Bruce Wayne who does not want to be Bruce Wayne. Who wants to make the world a better place so he can stop doing this. And I think that that's what I think. That's pretty important. And obviously, this is the highest quality of all of the Batman products.
Vic00:10:05I'd like to see Christian Bale.
Sonny00:10:06Christian Bale, number one.
Vic00:10:07I'd like to see Christian Bale.
Sonny00:10:07JBL and I agree. We agree on Batman. What a happy ending to this episode. We agree on the Batman. Christian Bale is number one. Science proved you right. You got lucky. You got lucky on this one, JBL. Science proved you right. I'm taking my toys.
Vic00:10:20Yes, JBL had his Batman toys out. I brought two of my Batman statues from my office to the podcast. Statues. Statues. Who knows how much they cost? Anyway, I'm going to speak for the normal human being and the normal man. I've never read a Batman comic book in my life. I don't own a comic book, a Batman comic book. I don't own DC Comics.
JVL00:10:41It's like I don't even know you. Yeah, no, it's true. After all these years.
Vic00:10:45I'm sorry. So my Batman is strictly based on movies and TV, and the first Batman I saw was Adam West, and he was cool. Wow. Yeah. Number one Batman ever. Let's fight. Let's fight. You like that sound effect? Christian Bale. I really liked him. I thought. He was. But I'd like to see Christian Bale do something light and comedy. I've never seen that. I don't think he's. Every role he does. Yeah, you haven't seen American Psycho. Okay, well, if that's about his light. Okay, and I'll just skip to the bottom, which was George Clooney as well. So that's it.
Sonny00:11:15Science agrees with you as well. Yeah, well, there you go. Science has proven.
Vic00:11:20God bless you, Adam West. And that was a very lighthearted episode. Everything's fine, right, guys? It is not fine.
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