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#32. The Substandard on Boxing vs. UFC
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Dudes Chatting — boxing vs. UFC: This micro-episode opens with Vic noting that the Anthony Joshua–Wladimir Klitschko fight at Wembley (90,000 in attendance, shown free on Showtime/HBO) somehow flew under everyone's radar. Sonny, a self-described casual-but-committed boxing fan, praises it as the best heavyweight fight since Lennox Lewis dismantled Mike Tyson, which he takes as a damning sign of how far the heavyweight division has fallen. JVL argues the root cause is UFC: it cannibalized boxing's audience by offering something rawer and more immediately legible. He traces early UFC history, recalling watching UFC 1 and UFC 2 on VHS in high school — back when there were no weight classes or rounds, just two men in a cage. He describes the inaugural UFC tournament's opening match (savate expert Gerard Gourdeau vs. 400-pound sumo wrestler Tayla Tooley, over in 26 seconds) and credits Royce Gracie's tournament victories as the moment that proved scientific grappling beats size. The current tent-pole event — a rumored Mayweather vs. McGregor boxing match — is discussed: Sonny gives McGregor a 0% chance of landing a punch on Mayweather, and both hosts agree Mayweather would agree to a reciprocal UFC fight and then simply not show up after winning the boxing match. Vic closes with a long anecdote about his friend Todd Palladino, a camera operator who worked HBO Boxing After Dark, was recruited by Mark Wahlberg to bring that documentary camera style to The Fighter, worked under David O. Russell and cinematographer Hoyte van Hoytema, got a kind word from Robert De Niro on Grudge Match, but never did get that hangout in Vegas that Wahlberg promised him.
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to another micro-episode of The Substandard, now a part of the Ricochet Audio Network. I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Just a quick reminder that full episodes of TheSubstandard are available every Thursday at 11am and Substandard show notes are posted by Jonathan Last every Friday at weeklystandard.com. So I read this headline from the BBC. Anthony Joshua stops Vladimir Klitschko in the 11th round at Wembley and somehow I missed it. But you guys missed it too, right? Yeah. So what is going on here with boxing? Sonny?
Sonny00:00:51So I am a modest boxing fan. I watch the fights when they come on HBO. I like to watch Gennady Golovkin knock. I like to watch the guys out. I will buy very, very rarely, I will buy a pay-per-view because the fights are usually overhyped. I also don't like staying up to one in the morning anymore because I'm old. So I'm a casual but relatively committed boxing fan as far as boxing fans go because apparently there are none anymore. You mentioned that you had no idea that the Klitschko-Joshua fight was happening. I had no idea either. I had no idea that the... The heavyweight division, the guy who's really dominated the heavyweight division for the last 10 years or so, Vladimir Klitschko, along with his brother Vitaly, or Vitaly or however you pronounce it, he was fighting to try and regain his standing in the world after getting beaten. And he's fighting in Wembley Stadium. He's fighting in front of 90,000 people. Oh, yeah. And it's not even a pay-per-view. It was shown live on Showtime and then replayed on HBO that night. I caught the replay because I was at a wedding. But it was a great fight. It was really the best heavyweight fight I've seen since Lennox Lewis dismantled Mike Tyson back in 2002 or 2003, whenever that was. I can't even remember now because I'm old. And it's really a very telling sign about the degraded state of the heavyweight boxing circuit. Right, JVL?
JVL00:02:24Yes, because UFC has killed the sport. Yeah, right.
Vic00:02:28So that's what happened.
JVL00:02:29I think so. Everybody has moved on to ultimate fighting because ultimate fighting is amazing and not as amazing as it was in the start when it really was kumite. Human cockfighting. As Senator McCain once said, yeah. So my brother and sister and I went and rented on VHS.
Sonny00:02:49What's VHS, JVL? Could you explain that for our younger listeners?
JVL00:02:55Yeah, so we rented on VHS. UFC won. And UFC 2, when they first came out on video, we were in high school. And back then, like now, ultimate fighting is like totally normalized, civilized, sanitized. There are weight classes. There are rounds. There are judges. Back then, it was you throw two guys into a cage together and just, you know, the fight's over when one of them submits or gets knocked out. That's it. And so it was like watching. It was like watching alligator versus gorilla versus shark. The very, very first UFC fight ever pitted this guy named Gerard Gourdeau, who was a savate expert who weighed 216 pounds, against Tayla Tooley, a sumo wrestler who weighed 400 pounds. And so you have these two guys who just wildly, because you always think to yourself, well, God, who would win in a fight between, you know, like pick your things. This fight was over in 26 seconds when Gerard Gourdeau kicked the sumo wrestler in the face, knocking out three teeth, two of which became embedded in his foot, and then hit him with a roundhouse right, and that was it. I mean, it was one of these, just sort of a staunch, and the whole thing was won. The tournament also, to add to the list, so the first Ultimate Fighting Tournament was a tournament that took place all in one night.
Sonny00:04:23So it was literally like Bloodsport. Someone watched Bloodsport and was like, you know, you know what? It'll be awesome. That's pretty friggin' cool. Not wrong. Not wrong.
Vic00:04:34What's the Eric Roberts movie at his prime when he was the boxing movie that was just like that as well? Kickboxer? I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe that's what it was. No idea.
JVL00:04:44But it was won, and this is the thing which really cinched it, was that what made Ultimate Fighting so cool was that the first two tournaments were won by a guy who weighs 175 pounds. His name is Hoist Gracie, and he was this drink of water who was, in the eyes of you, who could beat any of these guys because it was all scientific. It was amazing. So this is, I don't know, Hoist Gracie might be the greatest fighter since Achilles, but UFC heads where all the energy has migrated to, and they're going to try to save boxing. They're going to do a UFC versus boxing fight, we think, in the near future, which is going to be Floyd Mayweather versus Conor McGregor. If it's a boxing match, this is the danger to UFC. Mayweather will dismantle. He will dismantle McGregor in a horrific fashion, which...
Sonny00:05:32He'll either knock him out in one round, or he will toy with him for 12 rounds. He'll just avoid every punch.
JVL00:05:38Yeah.
Sonny00:05:40McGregor, there's a 0% chance that McGregor could land an actual punch on Floyd Mayweather. Now, the idea that I heard was that they were going to do a one-for-one, like Mayweather was going to box, and then he was going to do a UFC fight with McGregor. And once again, there's a 0% chance that would ever happen because Mayweather, all his bluster and all his, you know, big talk and his showmanship is not an idiot. He's not... He couldn't win a UFC fight. He understands his limitations, and my guess is what would actually happen is he would agree to a one-for-one and then just not do the second one.
JVL00:06:16After beating McGregor so badly in the first one.
Sonny00:06:18After destroying Conor McGregor in front of, you know, 20 million people, he would just not do the second fight.
JVL00:06:26Which of these two sports is the chav sport? Sonny?
Sonny00:06:29Oh, UFC is definitely the chav sport. This is the underclass sport. Boxing is still the sport of kings.
JVL00:06:37Vic, you have a connection to boxing, don't you?
Vic00:06:41Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting, JVL. Yes, Sonny, you were talking about how much you enjoyed watching HBO Boxing, and it turns out another fan of HBO Boxing after dark is Mark Wahlberg, and he wanted to do that movie The Fighter about Mickey Ward, and so he approached HBO and said, I'm looking for the guys who did the camera work for the boxing because I want that. I don't want to make it look like it. I want it to be it. I want those guys. That's the best way. Rather than trying to get camera operators who can try to imitate it, I just want the actual guys who actually did those fights, and one of them turned out to be my good friend Todd Palladino. Todd! Todd, a friend of The Substandards. He has been in the movie business and TV business as a camera operator for many years now. He's like the only person I know who was a communications major at Monmouth and actually, he did communications. Everyone used to do communications as a major. And so, I mean, he worked his way up from god-awful videos for weddings and reunions where people throw food at you and things, and then, you know, becoming a production assistant, and then doing TV. And then he would do all sorts of sports. So he did Yankee Stadium. He was there for the World Series. And then he did horse racing. He did some basketball and NFL. The hardest job he did was NFL sideline where you're chasing after, you know, Bill Parcells and he's telling you to, you know, get away from, get off, you know, get away from me. And the guy in the booth is saying, get closer, get closer, you know, and you're running back and forth. So he much prefers in the studio. And so he did Inside the NFL. And he did MLB. He still does MLB. And he does boxing, HBO After Dark. And so he and his other buddy were asked to take several weeks off and go to Lowell, Massachusetts. And I remember when he told us, he goes, I'm doing a movie. And we're going to be there with Mark Wahlberg in this small town in Massachusetts for the next, like, two or three weeks. And that was it. And it was, you know, I mean, and it was a very tight-knit production. And everyone was very close. He said Wahlberg was fantastic. But he was working under, of course, David O. Russell. And Russell, he says, is very intense. But he was taking direction. To polite euphemism. Yes. I want to protect Todd with his job and have future, you know, opportunities. With David O. Russell. So I'll leave a lot of those details out. But he did get a chance to work with Hoyta Van Hoytema, was the cinematographer, who, of course, did. And he's like, oh, yeah, Hoyta's a great guy. And Hoyta's very encouraging. And he says, oh, Hoyta's very encouraging and wants him to, you know, get closer and don't be afraid. And, of course, Hoyta did Interstellar and Dunkirk. And for Todd, he's like, oh, yeah, he's just, yeah, he's a great guy. And, of course, for us, I mean, jeez, I mean, to do those movies as well is pretty impressive. So he did that. And he said Wahlberg was great. And at the end, Wahlberg told him, you know, when I'm out in Vegas, you know, you're going to be at that fight too great. Hey, give me a call and we're going to hang out. And he never did. And let me tell you something. I don't care what, I don't care whose birthday, if it was my wife's birthday or my children's birthday.
JVL00:09:46Todd never called Mark Wahlberg. Not that Mark Wahlberg welched on Todd.
Vic00:09:50No, no, no, no, no. He could have. And I said, you know, that would have been entourage. You would have lived entourage. And then Todd went on to do a grudge match with De Niro and Sylvester Stallone. And that was very funny, too, because De Niro actually waved him over and Todd immediately thought he's got to be talking to somebody else behind him. But no, he was actually looking at Todd and he was just like, you did the match. You were the camera guy, right? And he goes, yes, sir. Yes, Mr. De Niro. He goes, you did a good job. You did a good job. And that's like, that's all I would. He didn't say, I'm sure it's fine. He did not say, I'm sure it's fine.
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