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#9. Funny How? The Substandard Tackles Scorsese
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Reviews: Sonny saw Silence (Scorsese) — a two-hour-forty-minute film about Jesuit priests in 17th-century Japan, based on Shusaku Endo's novel, starring Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver. Thoughtful and intense, it raises deep questions about apostasy without being as brutal as The Passion of the Christ.
Dudes Chatting — Martin Scorsese retrospective: JVL provocatively declares Scorsese merely "fine" and overrated, triggering Sonny. JVL argues that Paul Thomas Anderson's opening tracking shot in Boogie Nights (shot at age 27) is technically superior to Scorsese's Copa tracking shot in Goodfellas. Sonny mounts a passionate defense of Scorsese's career across decades — Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Gangs of New York (which Sonny calls the best movie of the 2000s), and The Wolf of Wall Street. Vic singles out Alec Baldwin's Juan Trippe in The Aviator. There is also a tangent on JVL reversing his second-viewing criticism of Grand Moff Tarkin in Rogue One. Corrections included. Spirit of the Week: Jefferson's Ocean Aged at Sea bourbon.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00♪♪ -Ferreira is lost to us. He renounced God in public and surrendered the faith. -That's not possible. Father Ferreira risked his life to spread our faith all over Japan. -It seems to me that our mission here is more urgent than ever. We must go find Father Ferreira. -As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster. ♪♪ -You talking to me? You talking to me? You talking to me? Who the hell else are you talking to? You talking to me? Well, I'm the only one here.
?00:00:55♪♪ -Hello, and welcome back to "The Substandard."
Vic00:01:02I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. First, I'd like to remind you all that "The Substandard" is available on iTunes and now Google Play. Or is it "the" Google Play? I'm not quite sure. -Just Google Play. -It's cleaner. -I don't even know what Google Play is. So just look under "podcasts" and search for "Substandard." Apparently, we're gonna soon be on Spotify. This is very exciting. You'll easily find us. Please subscribe, tell your friends, and we'll see you next time on "The Substandard." And leave a review. Many of you have. Thank you so much, and keep it going. So happy New Year, fellas. -Happy New Year, guys. -Happy New Year, Jonathan. It sounded like you had a wonderful New Year's. Tell us about your time at home. -It was great.
JVL00:01:47I was home with my four children because... Let me just say this. My kids go to this little hippy-dippy private school, and if they were to offer for, I don't know, say $5,000 a week, extra school for Christmas vacation, I would pay for that money. I would just slap that cash down there. Here, take my children. This is like two weeks at home with my children all at once, and it was wonderful. You know, I just really love getting to look at their little child eyes and see them experience.
Vic00:02:21-How did you describe it when you texted us the other day?
JVL00:02:24-So I texted you guys the other day, and I said, "Do you remember that planet in Interstellar where it's right at the edge of the black hole?" Time moves, like, unbelievably slowly. You're down there for two hours, and it turns out it was 25 years. That was my vacation. -That sounds awesome. -The giant wave is coming at you.
Vic00:02:39-Oh, it came at me. -We left the kids with my parents up in Jersey for about four or five days. -I hate you. -Oh, we're getting a plea for that one. -Beep. -And it was great, by the way. It's like, "Who do you want to eat tonight?" Oh, let's go here. Oh, great, exciting. -Oh, boy. Yeah, that must have been nice. -Very exciting. How about you, Sonny?
Sonny00:03:00-I had a nice -- I had a nice break. My wife's father was in town, and he played with our daughter a lot, which was nice. -Freezed up some time for you? -Yeah, you know, it was -- We went to the Air and Space Museum, the, like, actual -- You know, I went to the actual Air and Space Museum as opposed to just going to the Air and Space Museum to go to the IMAX. And it was the first time I'd been there in a long time. -Which one, in Dulles or in D.C.? -In D.C. So we went to the Udvar-Hazy Center, which is the one in Dulles, last year with him. -That's a great one. -It's really nice. Like, it really kind of cuts to the chase. It's just a big hangar full of stuff. It's like, "Here, look at all this stuff."
Vic00:03:35-Aside from parking, everything is free, and there's so much more space.
Sonny00:03:39-Yeah, yeah. But the one on the Mall is nice, as well. It's just more crowded, and it's kind of --
Vic00:03:45-The one on the Mall, they really carefully thought about this, about which planes to have where. There's no -- I don't think there's much -- I don't think there's much duplication. So, for example, I mean, the really -- I mean, there's cool stuff at Udvar-Hazy and Dulles, but in D.C., they've got the British Spitfire, and I believe they have the Messerschmitt, the 109, and the 262, which was the first jet.
Sonny00:04:09-I'm glad that you made sure to pronounce that correctly for your Fuhrer, who I'm sure is listening.
Vic00:04:15-Yes, I'm still looking for "The Man in the High Castle," by the way. -Vick is the only person who watches "The Man in the High Castle." -I watched the first season. -Not a dystopian universe, but what could have been. -Aspirational. -Really, there's so much to -- not say at this point, but we were talking earlier -- -I did not see that coming. -Christmas presents, that's a highlight for you, Jonathan. You must have gotten something nice to brighten up the week.
JVL00:04:43-I got socks. So, Vick knows this. Vick and I have been working together now for -- it'll be 20 years, two weeks from now, we will have been office husbands. We've been office same-sex married for 20 years, long before Obergefell. -That's very progressive. -Vick and I were pioneers on this. And so I have a number of eccentricities. Like, for instance, I only wear Lost t-shirts. Lost is a -- -He's literally wearing a Lost t-shirt right now. -It's a surf couture brand, spun off of Mayhem surfboards. -I thought it was for the show. -No, no, it's not. It's aspirational surfwear. -Oh, yeah, I also assumed
Sonny00:05:21that was for the show. I didn't realize I was --
JVL00:05:23-No, I have literally an entire dresser drawer full of nothing but Lost t-shirts. And this is what I wear. All the time, every day. And for reasons I can't quite get into.
Vic00:05:34-You want to be something that you're not yet, but you want to be that person.
JVL00:05:37-No, it's deeper than that. So this is just one of my proclivities. Another one is socks. There is nothing I love more than putting on a brand-new pair of socks. If I were rich, not, like, buy-yourself $140 million yacht rich, but, like, you know, like, I was a hedge fund manager, and I was making, I don't know, $4 million a year or something like that. The only thing I would do that's Mr. Burns-style extravagance is that I would never wear a pair of socks twice. -That's Arthur Bach in the movie "Arthur." -I would wear a brand-new pair of socks. You take them out of the package, you put them on, you wear them, and when you're done, you throw them away.
Vic00:06:17-Well, he donated to charity, but you're just gonna throw them away.
JVL00:06:20-I would throw them away. And so this is what every Christmas, the people who love me and know me best, they give me socks.
Sonny00:06:25-Do you get, like, the fancy NBA socks? What kind of socks do you get?
JVL00:06:30-Well, it's a mix between, like, gold-toe, just, you know, normal middle-of-the-road dress socks for when you're gonna put on shoes, and just normal Nike or Puma or Adidas athletic socks for when you're wearing sneakers. -Do you remember the Paul Wolfowitz story?
Vic00:06:45-No. -When he was in the administration, in the Bush administration, he visited a mosque and had to take off his shoes, and he had holes in his socks. And it was a big story. The reporters, of course, made a lot of fun of this. And, like, the very next day, the company Goldtoe, like, sent him a giant box of new socks. That's, like, your dream. -That is my dream.
JVL00:07:05So, this is the present I got that I was most happy with. I got socks, and it makes me so happy, and everybody who loves me gives me socks. And so, anybody who ever wants to send things to The Substandard as a gift to us, just Amazon me socks. -Yeah. -I don't even care what kind. They're great. Vic, did you get your personal massager? -
Vic00:07:21No, no, no. I just had to use my own hands for my back. For my back. And I'll tell you what I love -- I mean, gift cards are great. Always happy with gift cards, but -- -Do you have any pickles or bananas? -I got -- My favorite kind of gifts are food. No. Zucchini? No. Eggplant? What? No. Food and drink. I love food and drink. And so, my in-laws got me two boxes. One was from Zingerman's. I don't know if you know what Zingerman's is. If anyone went to Michigan -- -That's the Michigan place, right? -It's in Ann Arbor. It's fantastic. And they do a thing just of seafood in tins. Like, tins. Like, it came in -- It was, like, in a giant tin can. And it was -- I have it written down here. Bonita, tinned tuna, mackerel, sardines, anchovies, and also a basket from Zabar's in New York. And that had a bunch of salamis. And I can't tell you how much I love salamis. You actually had to reach in. Some of it was, like, tucked inside, as if they were trying to hide the salami. But I found it.
Sonny00:08:26-You played hide the salami. Did you win hide the salami?
Vic00:08:30-I always win. And my parents, again, aside from a generous, lovely gift --
JVL00:08:35-Did you do that on Christmas Eve after the kids were in bed?
Vic00:08:38-In front of the kids. I can't wait. And I -- My parents, aside from the gift cards, they also got me one of my terrible guilty pleasures, which is my annual Hickory Farms basket, as I like to call it, the basket of deplorables. And it is the processed cheese and the beef sticks. And I have to -- The cheese is processed, which is -- I'll even say that's questionable. But I have to say, with a beef stick, nothing beats a good summer sausage. -Oh, okay. -Thank you. -That's good. -How about you, Sonny?
Sonny00:09:08-Christmas was great. Benny, fantastic gifts. I also got socks, actually. My wife got me some delightful -- -Socks are the best, aren't they? -Delightful Darth Vader socks, which, you know, matches everything that I own. -You are wearing black today, so. -I know. I'm not wearing them today. I wore them yesterday. I was so excited to wear my new Darth Vader socks. I wore them first day. Back to work. No, my best gift was my father was able to get a bottle of 20-year Pappy Van Winkle.
Vic00:09:40-I cannot wait for next year's Spirit of the Week.
Sonny00:09:43-Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm definitely gonna bring that in here. Never. Never gonna do that. -What is that? Is that a good thing? -So, 20-year Pappy Van Winkle is -- it's, like, one of the most sought-after bourbons in the world. In the aftermarket, it's, like, $1,300, $1,400, et cetera.
Vic00:09:58-The price has skyrocketed. -Yeah. -Barbara Kittle, who's sitting outside our studio, her husband has been searching for Pappy Van Winkle for several years now. -Yeah.
Sonny00:10:06-So, basically -- -I'm sorry. I don't mean to derail the show, but so is this -- it's no longer in production? -So, no, it is -- no, it's made every year. They just make very little of it. It takes a very long time to make, and the -- 20 years ago, they had no idea it was going to become kind of a fad, really. I mean, it's, like -- it is a thing that is hard to get, so everybody wants it, so it makes it harder to get. It's one of these weird, vicious cycles. -Okay. -The bourbon itself is fine. I would not pay $1,300 or whatever for it, and fortunately, my father did not. He was able to get it at a Virginia ABC store at Basic Retail, so, you know, we -- -It's one of the quirks of the Soviet system in Virginia. -Virginia -- so, Virginia, for people who don't know, it's all state-run liquor stores, and they have, like, set prices. There's no free market in Virginia for liquor. -How was he able to just get this $1,300 bourbon? -He was on a waiting list for, like, five years, and the store -- -A waiting list for this? -A store just happened to have it come in, and he was next up on the list. -A sign you have a drinking problem.
JVL00:11:02You got a wait list for booze.
Sonny00:11:03-Well, no, you -- I mean, look, this is -- -A lot of people. -This is like anything. -This is a big deal. It's weird. -Yeah, this is -- So, just, you know, the adults in the room who like to enjoy, you know, spirits -- -Fine, fine spirits. -Fine, fine alcohol spirits will understand that this was a very good gift.
Vic00:11:19-I'll make sure to tweet this out to Pappy Van Winkle, and maybe they'll send us one.
Sonny00:11:23-Yeah, I bet they'll just, you know, a whole case.
Vic00:11:26-Who is it? Heaven Hill that owns Pappy Van Winkle?
Sonny00:11:28-No, it's -- it's -- -Buffalo Trace. -Buffalo Trace, of course. -Buffalo Trace, who -- and I actually went to the Buffalo Trace distillery two or three years ago for a -- a friend was getting married in Kentucky. Like, we had -- we could go to -- we had time to go to one distillery. I was like, "Got to go to Buffalo Trace. They're the best."
Vic00:11:44-I did Woodford Reserve at Maker's Mark on the Bourbon Trail with the Distilled Spirits Council, and, you know, the most surprising one was Wild Turkey, 'cause I think that usually gets a bad rap as being something like college. Everyone's drinking Wild Turkey 101.
Sonny00:11:57-101 is actually really good. It's a really, really -- -It turns out to be -- It was really good.
Vic00:12:02We had a great time. When I was off during this last week, I got a chance to see a -- What did I watch on TV? Well, I'll tell you what I watched in the movie theaters. I saw "Rogue One" again. We can discuss this afterwards at Corrections, but I tell you, it gets better with age. It really does, and there are things that I missed the first time. Jonathan, did you get a chance to escape at all to see a movie? -I did. I went to see "Rogue One" again. -Ah, we will discover -- We'll discuss this. And, Sonny, did you see "Rogue One"? -We're gonna talk about "Rogue One" on every podcast we ever do. -Yeah. -It'll make it on the headline and the subhead of every episode because that tends to drive traffic.
Sonny00:12:39-High SEO. -High SEO.
Vic00:12:41And the SEO power is immeasurable.
JVL00:12:46-Just like this. -Like the power
Vic00:12:47of the battle station. -That's right. -Well played, Sonny. -Thank you. And, Sonny, did you watch "Rogue One" again, or did you see something else?
Sonny00:12:54-I did not see "Rogue One" again because I've seen it once, and once is enough for anyone. Shots fired.
JVL00:13:00-But you did see it. -No, but I did see "Silence."
Sonny00:13:02-Ah. -Yesterday, I saw "Silence," the new Martin Scorsese film, which is based on a Japanese novel. -Scorsese? Scorsese. -I always say Scorsese. Is it Scors--
Vic00:13:13-I do Scorsese. -I don't know. -I don't either. -We have a friend who interviewed him. I have to ask our friend -- I won't use his name because I'll tell an anecdote about his experience and the interview process with him later, which is not fun, but I say Scorsese in any event.
Sonny00:13:30-Right. Continue. -Well, I am not -- I'm not gonna kowtow to these foreign pronunciations of names. Martin Scorsese's latest film, "Silence," which is about a pair of Jesuit priests who travel to Japan in the -- I guess it's the 17th century. -I think it's 16th-century Japan. -No, it's in the 1600s, so it's the 17th century.
Vic00:13:58So, thank you. -Aren't we in the 20th century
Sonny00:14:00now? -Hi. Thanks for correcting me, Victor Matus, when I was already totally correct. You can lash yourself on the back for that one.
Vic00:14:11Anyway, if we're done with the name pronunciations -- -It's based on the Shisako Endo novel from 1966.
Sonny00:14:19-Go ahead. -The date corrections that are wrong -- -Fire away. -Anyway, "Silence" is about two priests, one played by Andrew Garfield, latest -- of "Hacksaw Ridge," but also probably most famously as Spider-Man, and Adam Driver, who, of course, is Kylo Ren and from "Girls" and other stuff. They go to 17th-century Japan, and they are trying to track down another priest who was lost to them in a repression by the Japanese -- I guess imperial government. I don't know what the actual -- form of government at this point in Japan is. But anyway, it's about these two priests struggling with their faith, trying to bring their lord and savior to the Japanese masses. Who want them there? It should be highlighted that this is not like an imperial misadventure. This is, you know, the Christian people of Japan are asking for them to come and help them save their souls. So, anyway, it is a very -- it's clear. It's clear. It's clearly a very deeply personal movie for Scorsese. He is working through, I think, some of his own issues with Catholicism. Definitely. The silence, the titular silence from God, for instance. I don't want to spoil too much. It does -- it is long. It's about two hours and 40 minutes. I was about to ask, did it feel like --
Vic00:15:51but did it feel -- two hours and 40 minutes, but did it feel like more like four, or did it feel --
Sonny00:15:56No, I mean, I don't think it felt like four hours. It felt like about two hours and 40 minutes. For most Scorsese movies, I try to -- It's not as fast-paced as, like, Goodfellas. It's about the same length as Goodfellas, but it's not -- it's definitely slower. It feels slower. It feels more, you know, internal and --
Vic00:16:10For his movies, I try to get mentally prepared before I sit. And the worst is when you don't expect a movie to be long, and then next thing you know, you're having bed pains. Yeah. I mean, that happens, so.
Sonny00:16:20Yeah, so it -- it is a little bit long. It is a little bit brutal. You get to see there is some torture. It's not quite -- it's not like "Passion of the Christ" brutal. I was -- I went in expecting it to be really, you know, intense.
Vic00:16:33Yeah, that's what I -- from what I've read.
Sonny00:16:34But it wasn't -- it wasn't -- it wasn't nearly as bad as that. It was -- but it is -- look, it's intense. It's a movie where people are tortured into renouncing their faith. So, you know, that is -- that is -- that is a key part of the film. It is -- it is a -- it is a thing to expect when you go in there.
Vic00:16:52It's the question of apostasy and whether or not that's -- did Liam Neeson commit apostasy?
Sonny00:16:57Right. So the -- the -- the -- the priest, the Jesuit priest who was played by Liam Neeson, they are -- the -- the two younger priests are searching for him. And the question is whether he committed apostasy, really. The real question is what -- what is apostasy, I think.
Vic00:17:15Right. And I was also wondering, from everything I've read -- and I've read various book reviews as well -- everyone seems deeply divided, both on the book and the movie, particularly Catholics, in terms of what it means for them. And depending on how they interpret it, there is a -- a Jesuit professor I know, Father Fields, at Georgetown, and he has a friend who teaches an entire course on it. And he says, you know, the sign of a great book is that it's not very clear-cut like that. But -- but that it is deeply divided. And depending on, you know, the idea of martyrdom and is it a sin to have this yearning to be a martyr?
Sonny00:17:51Right. Right. And this is, I think -- this is kind of the dilemma that Andrew Garfield's character finds himself in. Glory. He is -- he is -- is he -- is he vain to think of himself as Christ? Or is he doing the Lord's work to think of himself as Christ, you know? And I -- I mean, look, I -- I, as -- as a non-Catholic looking at this from the outside, I would be very interested to get your guys' opinion when you see it.
Vic00:18:17There's not many places around us, I think, that are -- maybe the landmark?
Sonny00:18:20Yeah, it's definitely a -- it's a small -- look, this is -- you know, Martin Scorsese, in an interview a couple weeks ago, said it's very hard to get $40 million to make a movie these days, because, you know, a $40 million movie has to gross about $200 million worldwide. And if you count the number of people who are into seeing a movie about Jesuit priests getting tortured by Japanese imperial, you know, forces, whatever, dudes carrying around samurai swords with scalding hot, you know, shower baths to get you to renounce your faith, I'm guessing it's a relatively low number. So, you know --
Vic00:18:56It would help if the Jesuits were driving a car that transformed into a robot, maybe.
Sonny00:19:02If they were -- Or shooting -- Or fighting the -- the -- the -- the -- the katanas with lightsabers. Oh, yeah, there you go. That would help.
JVL00:19:09Oh, they'd cut through them easily. So do they not realize that if only the church would get right on same-sex marriage, then the Japanese would have been cool with it?
Sonny00:19:16Yeah, no, this is a movie about really the importance of -- of bringing your faith up to standards with -- Up to snuff. It is -- No, it's actually very fascinating. We -- we now have, in the past three months or so, right, two movies that are deeply infle -- deeply inflected by faith and the faithful. You have Hacksaw Ridge and -- and Silence Now, which are both kind of about the awful, terrible behavior of -- of the -- the Japanese government in times of stress and warfare. I -- It is actually, like, I'm -- I'm, like, kind of surprised that this is something that would --
Vic00:19:55Yeah, they got the double whammy this year. Yeah, they really -- Japan is just taking it on the chin, but -- They -- I thought -- I didn't think they ever recovered from Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor. I thought that was, you know, the -- that was the first shots fired, I guess, really. But it is interesting, Sonny, that you talk about how it reflects Scorsese's own, you know, pain and the struggles of -- of faith and doubt that he has. And you see that through his career. I was going to say Last Temptation of Christ is another one.
Sonny00:20:20Right, that's obviously the -- that's the big one, you know, which -- I don't know, maybe you guys can talk a little more about this, the -- the -- the argument over whether or not this is a heretical film. I mean, it is -- I think it's a, you know --
Vic00:20:32Again, you mean a silence?
Sonny00:20:34No, no, Last Temptation. Last Temptation.
Vic00:20:37My understanding is evangelicals were very, very upset, particularly because of the controversial scene in which Jesus, you know -- Really, I thought it was the Catholics.
Sonny00:20:45I thought the Catholics were the ones who were, you know --
Vic00:20:47It depends which Catholics you talk to, if that makes any sense. But, you know, it's -- it's -- it's the love scene between Jesus and Mary Magdalene. But in the -- it's the Nikos Kazantzakis book that, you know, that this is based on. And what people, religious Catholics have to remember is that that scene where he and Mary Magdalene have sex, this is as him as mortal -- mortal Jesus, just the man. This is not him as a son of God. It's this -- it's this hypothetical where the devil tempts him to come off the cross. It's that moment, and that's the Last Temptation. He decides, "Well, what happens if I did?" And then he comes off the cross, and then he lives the rest of his life as a normal man. And logically, he would have married Mary Magdalene. And then -- He has a child, but then one day, you know, these things are taken away from him, and then he's walking down, you know, a path, and he sees a guy on a soapbox claiming to be the messiah. And he says, "Wait a minute." He says, "You know, you're not the messiah. You're a false prophet. I'm the messiah." And he says, "No, you were the messiah." You know, this whole thing. And then flashes back, and then he's back on the cross. Sorry, in case anyone wanted to see the movie. But, um --
JVL00:21:49With a spoiled 30-year-old kid.
Sonny00:21:50That's right. That's right. With David Bowie as Pontius Pilate.
Vic00:21:53Yes, David Bowie as Pontius Pilate, Barbara Hershey as Mary Magdalene, and of course, Harvey Keitel as Judas. But that was -- because you got to -- Scorsese always tries to include some of his favorites in every movie. The funny story is when he did Kundun, about the Dalai Lama, he says Joe Pesci came to him and was like, "Come on, come on, you got to get me in that film somehow." That did not work out for him as to be like a shaved bald Buddhist monk. Anyway, but it is interesting because Scorsese has now done films that have been, you know, the big blockbusters. And then he's done -- these kind of films as well.
Sonny00:22:27Well, his last film before this was Wolf of Wall Street, which is about, you know, a whore mastering, you know, a drug abusing, big living Wall Street fraudster. And, you know, then you have this movie -- And it did well, right? I mean, it was -- Yeah, yeah, that was -- that was maybe his most successful -- Is that right? I can't remember. I would -- I would have to look it up. But it's one -- it's certainly one of his -- not adjusted for inflation or anything like that. It's one of his most successful films.
Vic00:22:53The thing about Scorsese -- and this is not an arrangement, it's not his original idea -- but he -- if you notice, he's very uncomfortable actually making love scenes, filming love scenes. Yeah, very -- yeah, very few. Very few. And he's much more comfortable doing the violent scenes, much more creative and artistic in a weird way. Again, that's not my original idea. But if you watch the -- the love --
Sonny00:23:16Is this -- is this due to his -- do you think his religion? Is this like a --
Vic00:23:20His relationships? I don't -- I don't know. You know, he -- he -- would he -- He did Goodfellas, if you look at the love scene between Ray Liotta and Lorraine Bracco. And he just pans across their body. He's on top of her, legs intertwined, not really any -- there's no nudity, whatever. And then you fast forward to The Departed, and there's a scene with Leo DiCaprio and Vera Farmiga. And it's the same exact scene. And he just pans across. And I kind of felt like, you know, it's sort of like George Lucas and his hatred of dialogue. You know, let's just sit down and talk about it. Let's just get this love scene out of the way, and then let's move on.
Sonny00:23:57And this is -- I think this is one of the reasons you can tell that he kind of despises -- there was a big debate when Wolf of Wall Street came out about whether or not it was lionizing this Jordan Belfort character, or if it was a film that was, like, critiquing and damning him. And I think that the real tell is the fact that that movie is filled with nudity. It is filled with him degrading women in a variety of ways, which is something that, again, Scorsese has shied away from. I mean, Last Temptation of Crisis, one of the only other movies that I can remember with -- like, there's one topless scene in Mean Streets. There's, you know, Mary Magdalene for a bit in Last Temptation. But, like, it -- It's weird and uncomfortable. For a filmmaker of, like -- for a filmmaker who works almost exclusively in R-rated films who came up in the '60s and '70s, it is very -- it's very strange to have that sort of restraint on matters sexual.
Vic00:24:53Whereas the Violet Seeds, I was thinking about, of course, in Goodfellas, the iconic opening scene of Goodfellas where Billy Bats gets stabbed to death in the truck. There's an awful sound that they use there. And it'll remind me also that for Scorsese, his favorite part of filmmaking is editing. He loves being in the room afterwards with Thelma Schoonmaker, his longtime film editor, and the two of them. And that's all they do. And that's what he says is his favorite part. But you hear that noise and the sound and the lights. It's just awful, but it's memorable. And then, of course, in Casino, there's that -- that awful scene with the head vice. Yeah, with the eye. The eye. And, you know, actually, there was a great A-head column in the Wall Street Journal where the technical guy in charge of that, I think he asked his father, who was a doctor, like, "What would happen with the eye pop out if you, you know, put a guy's head in a vice?" And the doctor said -- the father said, "No, that wouldn't happen." But Scorsese wanted it to happen anyway. And the only difference is in the book -- and it's an awful scene, but in the book, there's apparently some guy in the back eating a bowl of pasta. Other than that, what you see is what you get. Do you guys have favorite Scorsese movies? Jonathan, what's your favorite?
Sonny00:26:05Since we've dominated the last, like, 15 minutes of this. I know, I'm sorry about Jonathan's. Jonathan, what's your favorite?
Vic00:26:09Jonathan is practicing silence, actually.
JVL00:26:10I really, really like "The Rainmaker," actually. I think that's a wildly underrated -- That's not Martin Scorsese. That's Coppola. Oh, that's some other 70s auteur who loves the mob. Is that what that is?
Sonny00:26:22Wow, that was a setup for us. I see what you did there. I see what you did there. Wait, you do this on Twitter all the time. I-S-W-Y-D-T. I see what you did there.
JVL00:26:33I overrated. Wow. Does not like Martin Scorsese.
Vic00:26:38That's -- Overrated. You're ridiculous.
JVL00:26:41Look, nobody --
Vic00:26:43I think what you need is fine. You need to see more Martin Scorsese movies, I think. He's fine. Jesus.
JVL00:26:48Scorsese is fine. He is put in this pantheon of great directors, though, just because he's a boomer and because he's an auteur and because the boomers decide that anybody from their generation who's ever done anything with a reasonable degree of skill for a long time must be the greatest of all time. This is like the Bob Dylan stuff, getting the Nobel Prize. He's good. He's good. He's been prolific for a very long time. He's made 24 major films over 50 years, and he deserves a tremendous amount of respect for that. He deserves a tremendous amount of respect for the fact that the beta between his best work and his worst work is very small. He does not have embarrassing stuff, you know, in his oeuvre. And that's something. And he's technically very proficient. He knows how to make movies. That said, there are a lot of guys out there that you could say about that. Spike Lee knows how to make a movie. I mean, if you see a Spike Lee film, he is technically very proficient, and he knows how to move pieces around and do interesting scenes.
Sonny00:27:51Yeah, but nobody denies that Spike Lee is a major great filmmaker.
JVL00:27:54Nobody puts Spike Lee in the same -- Scorsese.
Sonny00:27:56Because he is worshipped at this altar that I find mystifying. That's because you're wrong. As in so many things, you're wrong. First off, the delta between Spike Lee's best film and his worst film is enormous. Yes. That's what I'm saying.
JVL00:28:13Nobody would argue, there's nobody who would argue that Spike Lee is on the same shelf as Scorsese.
Sonny00:28:18Right, but... Okay, anyway, continue. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I did, because you're wrong.
JVL00:28:25Look, I'm sorry. In the opening scene of Boogie Nights, Paul Thomas Anderson intentionally apes the Copacabana scene from Goodfellas. He does this, it is only his second feature film, and he executes it better than Scorsese, because not only is he juggling all these pieces in a single take, but he's doing it with the added degree of difficulty of introducing characters and giving exposition that's critical for his entire film. And so he does all this, again, as a 25-year-old, better than Scorsese did it as a mature filmmaker. When you think of great films, how many Scorsese films strike you as being legitimately great, meaning the type of thing that you come back to again and again? Goodfellas. - Goodfellas, Casino, Raging Bull. - Raging Bull, although Raging Bull is such a hard film to watch, that I don't know that it's the type of thing that people often wanna go and revisit. Goodfellas, I'll give you. Maybe Casino. After that, when you look at his career, and he does something--
Sonny00:29:24- I watched Casino over and over again.
JVL00:29:25I've seen it a dozen times. - But starting around 1988, with Last Temptation of Christ, he starts making almost exclusively these, what my buddy Mike Russell calls, handsome, important American films, where he just has an idea. There are no just simple stories to be told. Everything is gonna be an important statement film. And I think that gets tedious and monotonous. And this leads to--
Sonny00:29:45- Like Shutter Island, for instance.
JVL00:29:46- The question, he grew out of it, eventually. We'll get back to the box office grossing. - You're making the Tom Hanks comparison, as well. - So here's the question. What do we value most from our artists? Do we want them batting for average or hitting home runs? Because batting for average, Scorsese is tremendous, I would say, right? He's a guy who is consistently putting out very high-quality movies once every 24 months over the course of like half a century. That's very impressive. But as a question of home runs, meaning a piece of art that is still vibrant that people are gonna wanna return to over and over again, I think he's very mediocre. We don't have to talk about "Star Wars" again, but whatever you wanna say about Lucas, and yes, Lucas is terrible and he's a buffoon and all that, when you revisit the original "Star Wars," even today, it is amazingly vital. Like, it retains this total vitality. It's a living work of art. It's still breathing. It's not a museum piece. It's not a back catalog item. And I think there are a whole bunch of directors, David Fincher with "Seven," George Miller with "Mad Max," Matthew Vaughn with "Layer Cake." If you ask me what the best gangster movie ever made is, I would say "Layer Cake," actually. John McTiernan with "Die Hard," James Cameron with "Terminator 2," and Aliens, Ridley Scott with "Blade Runner," Christopher Nolan, Michael Mann, Wes Anderson, Paul Thomas Anderson, Steven Spielberg, Francis Ford Coppola, and we haven't even gotten to the actual top shelf with guys like Hitchcock and Kurosawa. So I would say you view all this through the lens, and Scorsese is fine. I don't mind him. - I think he's more than fine. I think he's more than fine.
Sonny00:31:26- The cult of Scorsese drives me crazy. - I would say that Scorsese has made four-star films in at least four, maybe five decades. "Taxi Driver," four-star film that you go back to. I was watching it, I happened upon it on Starz or on one of these channels, and watched about 40 minutes of it. It's friggin' great, it's friggin' great. - "Raging Bull" we talked about. - "Raging Bull" is generally considered to be one of the best movies of the 1980s, I think reasonably, and I, it is a dark film, it is perhaps sometimes slightly hard to watch, but it is a masterpiece of filmmaking, craft, the shooting.
Vic00:32:06- Don't disagree. More than proficient, though, I mean it's really,
Sonny00:32:08the boxing scenes were amazing. I don't, important to say, I don't disagree with this. - "Goodfellas" is, I think, I mean, almost inarguably one of the, again, one of the best films of the '90s. - In fact, he was-- - He has not just made five-star films. - Oh, come on, let's not get crazy. - He has not just made five-star films. - "Goodfellas" is a great movie.
Vic00:32:27It is not one of the best films of the '90s. - I agree, it's one of the best.
Sonny00:32:31- I would say, I think we can say of all time. - Of movies I watch from the 1990s, "Goodfellas" is one of five that I watch every year.
Vic00:32:40- I have to tell you this, the first time I saw "Goodfellas," how many times have you seen "Goodfellas?" - Once, maybe. - Three times. - Okay, the first time-- - First time with you. - Yeah, that's right. - At the Uptown. - The first time-- - It was one of our first dates. - I don't remember much from that movie. First time I saw that movie-- - Your head was down. - Oh, man. I dropped something. The first time I saw it, I actually was kind of nonplussed and exhausted. I thought, oh, this is interesting, but I'm still a "Godfather" fan. And then I saw it again. - "Goodfellas" is great. - Three times. But after, I'll tell you, the more I saw it, the more I thought, this is really amazing.
Sonny00:33:13- Everything about that movie is, it is perfect. There are no stray scenes.
Vic00:33:19- The Layla piano exit scene after Jimmy, Robert De Niro's character, Jimmy the Gent, cuts all his ties-- - Yeah. - Rather than pays everybody, or he's afraid they're gonna rat to the FBI, and they play the piano exit song from Layla, is masterful. - It is. - And there's a great, very complicated scene that goes into a meat freezer. - The crane shot into the meat truck. - Yes, because the guy was standing there and had to very carefully walk off the crane and into the meat truck, and then inside without any sort of, he wanted it to be as smooth as possible, and God knows how many times he must have made the guy do it. I know a guy who was a, he worked on set design for "Hugo," and he confirmed how difficult it is to work for Scorsese. He was on the set talking to one of his bosses, and immediately somebody was coming in with Scorsese, and then he says to him, "You gotta leave, you gotta leave, you gotta leave, 'cause Scorsese's coming, you can't be here, you can't be here, he's gotta be, nobody here, everybody out," you know, and it's that kind of hard work. That's very difficult to work with, and our friend, who will remain nameless, helped do an interview with him, and-- - I thought you were gonna save this. - Oh, it's now, it's happening now.
JVL00:34:25- I thought you were gonna save it.
Vic00:34:26- Are we gonna save it for later? I'm just gonna say-- - I don't care, right? It's your story, you're the one who wants to sell it. - Really quickly, I'll just be really quick, and he said that Scorsese wouldn't even look at him. He would just look, and if our friend would ask questions, he would ask his own assistants about the question.
Sonny00:34:42- So, then you move into the 2000s, where he's in his Leo DiCaprio phase, and-- - Yeah, Bring Out the Dead is so great. I really dig that movie. - That's Nick Cage. That's Nick Cage, that's still the '90s.
JVL00:34:52- Yeah, the way he makes the rain go upside down. - He-- - What an artiste, what an auteur. He's the greatest.
Vic00:35:00- Wow.
JVL00:35:01- Scorsese is just the greatest ever. - Somebody needed to get more socks for Christmas. - There's no one better than Scorsese.
Sonny00:35:06- I wouldn't say there's-- - I'm not saying that. - Nobody's saying that. You're arguing against a straw man here. You're torching the man of straw. So--
JVL00:35:14- Lots of people say, Michael Mann or Martin Scorsese.
Sonny00:35:18Give me a greater sign, a lesser-- - Me, personally? - Yeah, you tell me. - I would rather, if I had to keep one artist in my body of work, I would probably keep Michael Mann's, because I like him more, but that doesn't change anything. - Christopher Nolan or Martin Scorsese? - You're asking me nonsense questions. - I'm just saying. - But you don't have to make these choices. There's no limitation of room in the pantheon. The pantheon can be as big as you want to make it. - I just want--
JVL00:35:42- For sake. - I want him on a lower shelf. By the way, I specifically didn't tell you guys I was gonna swerve on this, because I wanted to see Sonny's head explode.
Vic00:35:50- You said swerve, and I thought, what's he gonna swerve on?
JVL00:35:52And as soon as he started, I go, here we go. Look, by the way, I really just--
Sonny00:35:57- No, you're just wrong, you're just bad.
Vic00:35:59You're just, you're an illiterate. - You know what's a great, I'll tell you what a great movie is. The Aviator is great, and I'll tell you why it's great. It's not because of Leo DiCaprio. It's because of his arch nemesis, the CEO of Pan Am, Juan Tripp, played by Alec Baldwin.
Sonny00:36:16- That's a great role. - No, and then--
Vic00:36:17- He's good in everything.
Sonny00:36:18- I think the Scorsese-DiCaprio partnership does not get the appreciation it deserves. I think Gangs of New York is sorely underrated. It's properly rated by people who are smart and know things, but it is underrated by people who are stupid and ignored. - Yeah, it's the best. God, that movie's so great.
JVL00:36:35- Daniel Day-Lewis totally deserves-- - That's the best movie of the 2000s.
Sonny00:36:37- It's certainly in the top 10. - Of the millennia.
Vic00:36:40- It's a contender. - It's in the top 20. - I would say, honestly, the Draft Riot scene. - Fantastic.
Sonny00:36:45- It's fantastic. - And the stuff at the beginning with Liam Neeson and going up against Bill the Butcher in that big fight. There are things that you could cut from that film but basically everything with Cameron Diaz can't go. But like-- - The Draft Riots, that's the best thing.
JVL00:37:01- Yeah, he's really plumbing the depths of the human experience in that. I really came away from that totally.
Sonny00:37:06- Wolf of Wall Street, I think, is an early contender for best film of the 2010s. - I'm letting that one sink in. I haven't decided I'm letting it sink in. - Our friend Matthew Continetti, he thinks it's better than Goodfellas, which I think is wrong.
Vic00:37:16- Well, I think whatever Matt Continetti says is right. - No, don't. - Is it better than Interstellar?
JVL00:37:25- I mean, I'm just saying there are probably four movies over the last two years that are just objectively better. It is this, this is the thing that drives me crazy about Scorsese.
Sonny00:37:34- I don't know if I would put Interstellar above Wolf of Wall Street, honestly. I think I would probably put Wolf of Wall Street above Interstellar. - Dark Knight Rises? - I might put it above Dark Knight Rises. - That's insane. - It's not better than The Dark Knight, certainly. It's not better than The Prestige.
JVL00:37:49- So this is what drives me crazy about it. It is not enough, it is like the Beyonce stuff. It's not enough just to say, you know, Scorsese's great.
Sonny00:37:58- But you don't say Scorsese's great. You say Scorsese's fine. - Yeah. - There's a difference between great and fine, and you're clearly plumbing the--
JVL00:38:06- He is a top-tier director, and a major talent. But can we just leave it at that? I mean, this is not--
Sonny00:38:13- But I don't know, but now you're-- - I think the problem-- - We're all saying this, but you're like, yeah, but others who I like more are greater. - You're just sitting here telling me these things,
JVL00:38:20like, but these movies are like, you know, the greatest of that decade. They're just not.
Sonny00:38:25- Goodfellas is one of the greatest films of the '90s. Raging Bull is one of the greatest films of the '80s. Taxi Driver is one of the greatest films of the '70s. And like, I think that there is still time for--
Vic00:38:37- That movie drove a man to want to kill the president,
Sonny00:38:38for goodness sakes. - The 2000s are, how can you decide what is the best movie of the 2000s yet? I don't think, I frankly don't think anything from the 2000s would be in the, if I'm being serious for a moment, I don't think anything in the 2000s from Scorsese is in the, like, best, best film of the 2000s discussion. I don't think that. But I do think that Wolf of Wall Street will be, by the end of the decade, will be considered in the top 10 or 20 films of the 2010s. Easy, I think that is a movie that is going to age well.
Vic00:39:08- I have to let it sink in, but I have to tell you, to go back to The Aviator, one of my favorite scenes is Alec Baldwin, as Juan Tripp, has to pay a visit to Leo DiCaprio, who's playing Howard Hughes at his worst. And so he goes to the offices, Hughes has been locked up in his studio screening room for weeks, and months, and his hair is all grown out, and he's smelly and dirty, and the fingernails, and the jars of urine, and the tissue boxes, and naked on one side of the wall. And on the other side in the hallway is Juan Tripp talking, warning him about the aeronautics board and how he's gonna get ripped a new one by Senator Brewster, played by Alan Alda. And he's explaining, and he's sitting in a chair, Alec Baldwin is. And he's just, you know, the hair is perfect, the suit is perfect, he just looks, you know, at his finest and nattiest. And, you know, little does he know, on the other side is Leo DiCaprio looking like a caveman. But he does know, and he does know that he suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder and other things. And so, Alec Baldwin will be talking to him, talking, "Howard, you know, you really need to consider this." And he's smoking a pipe, and then he's blowing the smoke into the keyhole, and the smoke is coming into Leo DiCaprio's side, and he's all freaking out. And trying to control himself, but it's a great scene. - It is a great scene.
JVL00:40:29- It's a great scene. - You know who's underrated? - That's actually the best scene of the 2000s. - You know who's underrated? - There is no movie in the 2000s
Vic00:40:34that has a better scene in it than that one. - You're attacking straw men here. I'm not saying that.
Sonny00:40:39- You know what movie sucks is Rogue One. Rogue One.
Guest00:40:42- Wow!
Vic00:40:43Write that down, that was '45, '56 when you used the F-bomb again.
JVL00:40:48- I would just like to say that the master has become, the student has become a master. - Ah, troll. - I have just trolled Sonny Bunch for 45 years. - Totally fell for it.
Vic00:40:56- Total success. - We need to move on to corrections, I think. Let's take a break. Let's take a break. We don't have commercials, so let's just go right into corrections. - All right. - And thoughts. Corrections, clarifications, do you wanna start? - Yeah. - Okay, all right, fine. - Vic, you killed Carrie Fisher. - You did. - Thanks. - You did. - Okay, I have to get serious here.
Sonny00:41:15- Don't do shtick about Carrie Fisher being dead. If you do shtick about Carrie Fisher being dead--
Vic00:41:20- The show's over?
Sonny00:41:20- I'm walking out of this room. I've been trolled once today.
Vic00:41:24Let me just say a word about Carrie Fisher. If you are only recently listening to last week's episode, which was a record-breaking episode, many of you have literally tens of thousands of listens, and we thank you for that. If you're only now listening to that episode, I'd like to explain that my jokes about Carrie Fisher, meaning her bad acting and the possibility that she was not alive, I did not make that when she suffered cardiac arrest and died, I didn't even make it until she was on the plane. This was recorded way before that, and then just by luck, that happened. It was unfortunate, I'm a big fan of hers, I think my favorite role for her outside of Princess Leia is when Harry met Sally, she's wonderful, is the woman who keeps dating married men, and I just want to say thank goodness, I almost made jokes about Debbie Reynolds for some reason in the last episode, and I didn't, so good thing for that. That's all I have to say, it was a clarification, it's not an apology, it's a clarification. - Friend of the show, Adam. - If anyone was, as they say, in this town, if anyone was offended, I'm truly sorry. - You should be ashamed of yourself.
JVL00:42:33Friend of the show, Adam Kiper, sent me a link to something I'd never seen before, which was Carrie Fisher roasting Lucas at some AFI award show, and it's fantastic. I'm gonna put it in the show notes. Yeah, I realized this last week when we were off, that I'm always saying, oh, I'll put it in the show notes without ever telling anybody what the show notes are, so every week after we do the show, Sonny posts a thing over at the Washington Free Beacons blog about it, and then I post a little sort of exit interview with links and things that we've talked about over at The Weekly Standard's blog, so you should check. It's typically, it goes up the day after the episode comes out. If you are interested in seeing or reading some of the things we talked about, you should check the show notes. So I will put that in. It's really great. It's only four and a half minutes, and she's so good. She's so wickedly funny and cutting, and I choose to remember her that way.
Vic00:43:27- Do you have Rogue One thoughts that you wanted? We talked about how we've seen it a second time.
JVL00:43:33- I do, and this is a correction on my part. I had argued-- - Me too. - In our Rogue One thing that I was upset at the way Grand Moff Tarkin, sorry, Governor Tarkin was portrayed, and after seeing it again, I now total agreement with you, Sonny, that it had to be Tarkin, and that actually, this is all done in furtherance of our thesis about the Empire being good, and that's because of this, so you have Director Krennic, who is a bloodthirsty psychopath who wants to kill the wife of Jyn Erso, or the wife of Mads Mikkelsen, what's his last, what's his? - Galen. - Galen Erso. Wants to kill Layla Erso just for no reason, wants to kidnap the daughter, wants to blow up the whole planet-- - Jedha, the whole planet of Jedha. - Wants to blow up the whole, so he's a psychopath, and Tarkin sees this and realizes that this guy can't be allowed anywhere near real power. That's why the minute the battle station is operational, he moves in to bureaucratically sideline Krennic and take over himself, he's thinking of the good of the galaxy. - Right. - And then, when Krennic starts moving around him, he realizes that this man is too dangerous even to be sidelined, and so he is willing, he's such a visionary that he is willing to protect the galaxy, even a galaxy including horrible rebels, like Saw Gerrera, like Blitzkrieg, Bail Organa, like Princess Leia, he's willing to protect their lives at the cost of Imperial lives, and finding out that Krennic is on the little planet with the data backups, with the hard drives, he decides, this is his opportunity to kill him, he has to kill him now, for the good of the galaxy, and so he sacrifices tens of thousands of Imperial lives, not to mention enormously important infrastructure, to keep this madman away from the button of the Death Star. - Yes. - You can absolutely - As I argued at the time. - reread this entire bit on Rogue One, with Tarkin as the level-headed hero
Vic00:45:31trying to protect the galaxy, and not only that, but it was wise for Tarkin to do it then in that manner, because you get the impression, watching that movie, that Krennic is just hard to kill, you know? I mean, he got shot at in the shoulder by Galen's wife, and then there was the explosion that killed Galen, and he just keeps on living, so there was one way to do it. Again, I keep on referring to the Jedi temple and Chirrut and Baze, but in fact, it's a kyber temple, I guess it's sort of related, and that these guys are not Jedi, they're not Jedi guardians, they're guardians of the Wills, which is a whole other world, right, Sonny? It's a whole other thing, the Wills.
Sonny00:46:10- Well, I think that was mostly just a shout-out to the original, this is actually a very kind of cool and secret callback to the original name of the Star Wars kind of saga, which was the Saga of the Wills or some such, W-H-I-L-L-S, is what Lucas had originally called it. It wasn't originally called Star Wars, it was called something else. And it was, yeah, they are not Jedi, they're not Jedi Knights, they're like temple guards.
Vic00:46:41- Listener Roshmosh on iTunes wrote a review. He said, "I think you guys are wrong "about the fan service in Rogue One. "I really appreciated the look-backs "to the original Star Wars in this movie. "This was a Star Wars movie, "even though it was a one-off, "as you say, and so the tie-ins were necessary "and an ethical part of what made the movie so special. "I just want to say I agree more Walrus Man."
JVL00:47:02Thank you. - Other corrections. Leia's ship is a Corellian Corvette, not a Hammerhead Corvette. - Oh, and in fact, I thought it was a, not to totally geek out, but I thought it was a blockade rudder. - That's from Doc G. Hines, who wrote in. He also wrote in to say the Yoda lightsaber Sonic the Hedgehog scene is episode two, not episode three. - With Count Dooku. - Another Twitter buddy, I've lost this in my show notes here, I'm sorry about whoever, I should be giving proper credit. The T-15 is a blaster. - Go figure. - And so that is what is being remodeled, absolutely. The thing that Luke is playing with is called a sky hopper. - Hopper, yeah. - That's Jeff Grey, sorry, Jeff Grey on Twitter. And there was one other thing. Vic, I have in my show notes that you're supposed to tell us something about Jack Palance.
Vic00:47:52- Well, no, I was making-- - Jack Palance. - Jack Palance, yes, Jack Palance. - Scorsese. - No, I was in a recent profile of the now former manager of the Palm Steakhouse, Tommy Giacomo. Continetti featured a picture of my head on the wall at the Steakhouse, which they were very kind to do. - Vic, you have your picture on the wall at the Palm? - For free, and I look very young.
JVL00:48:15- How much money have you spent at the Palm over the last 10 years? - Not much, there is a technical way to get on there,
Sonny00:48:20but I did not spend $15,000 to get on the wall. It was just the kindness of Tom. - I would actually be curious to know if he has spent $15,000 at the Palm. - No, no, no. - Over the last 10 years.
Vic00:48:30- No, no, no, there is a number, but I'm not revealing it on the show.
JVL00:48:32- Back when we were owned by Rupert Murdoch is when you spent all that money at the Palm. - Oh yes, that was 50,000 points, actually,
Vic00:48:37and the plane trip around the world. And I said that it's a lovely portrait, but I haven't looked like that in years, and lately I look more like Asian Jack Palance, to which our substandard listener, JMO, says, please say believe it or not, and so I'll say it. Believe it. Or not. - Thank you, that's my Jack Palance impression. - That's brilliant. - Of one of the--
Sonny00:49:00- Number one guy. - Oh, that one, too? - The only Jack Palance, the only movie of his that I actually really know is Batman. - Well, I mean, he was a great-- - 'Cause I'm a child, I'm a, you know.
Vic00:49:08- Yes, yes, no, he was a great Western. He did a lot of Westerns. - Yeah, I know, I know he was in a lot of movies
Sonny00:49:12other than Batman. - City Slickers, City Slickers.
Vic00:49:14- But literally the only one I know was Batman. - Yes, he did City Slickers, but Ripley's Believer was a great show. And as a kid growing up, I thought all of it was real. It turns out maybe some of it is the same time as That's Incredible. I believe it went back to back, right, on CBS? - Yeah, that would be gold, that would be gold. - Isn't this true, though, though? - Yes. - Is That's Incredible followed by Ripley's Believer or not? - That's Incredible, maybe. The competitor to That's Incredible was called Real People. And Fred Willard was on that, adding a comedy element. And he's fantastic, of course. Really quickly-- - Don't forget Spirit of the Week. - Yes, yes, I was gonna say our best of the year segment, I argued about The American Speak, my favorite TV show, I think. But I should have also mentioned Stranger Things. I caught that at the end, I think Sonny would agree. It's a great show.
Sonny00:49:54- Yeah, it was fun.
Vic00:49:55- And a great sort of homage to the '80s. Sonny, no other corrections?
Sonny00:50:02- No, I actually had one this week. I had one, I said something--
JVL00:50:05- The day the music died.
Sonny00:50:07- I said something like I was kind of a doubter of Christopher Nolan until The Dark Knight Rises. That's not true, I meant The Dark Knight, not The Dark Knight Rises. - Got it, got it. - Very important distinction.
Vic00:50:16- Okay, Spirit of the Week is courtesy of my brother-in-law, Bill Dwyer. Jefferson's Ocean, Aged at Sea. What did you think about it, guys?
Sonny00:50:28- Well, Jonathan, this is the first time you, literally the first time you've ever had bourbon. - We should've, we should've like--
Vic00:50:33- I didn't really-- - Slowly, you know what, if I knew it was first, I would've given him the Jack Daniels honey, or the, what-- - Fireball. - Fireball. - Fireball. - Yeah, that would've been nice.
JVL00:50:42- Well, you gave it to me in a red plastic Solo cup. - Red stag, I should've gotten a red stag. - RIP Solo cup. - I was given the kids cup. - We ran out of glass. - I don't know, like I took a couple, is this what people drink? - Yes, adults do, that's what adults do. - Like they choose to put this into their mouth, like for what, for social occasions, to help them like get chicks and stuff?
Vic00:50:59- You know how kids don't like the taste of beer at first? That's you with bourbon. - Okay, Sonny. - And also beer. - Look, I had it, and I didn't gag. - I don't know what-- - There's a joke in there, but go ahead, Sonny.
Sonny00:51:12- I thought it was good, you know, I've had a bunch of the Jeffersons, the private reserve, or whatever, the-- - Well, this one-- - The more aged stuff. - This is very interesting. It does have kind of a salty tang to it.
Vic00:51:25- This is from, well, this is from their website, so I'm just reading because it's interesting, and it's a free plug, but it is interesting. It started out as an experiment, an effort to discover what would happen if bourbon was left to weather the extreme elements, temperature, fluctuation, salt, air, gentle rocking of the ship. The result, they say, is thick, dark bourbon, showcases complex flavors reminiscent of other spirits, almost like a dark rum, and it comes out almost like an Islay Scotch, they say. Each voyage of Jefferson's ocean typically crosses the equator four times, visits five continents, and over 30 ports on an average sailing, so.
Sonny00:52:01- Where do they put the barrels? Like, do they put the barrels on, like, cruise ships or something? Where do they go? - No, I'm picturing
Vic00:52:06cargo ships, like, on top, and just hope that a storm doesn't knock it over. That's what I thought, I don't know. - So they're just, like, in a container on some giant container. - It's like a Maersk, there's like a Maersk container. - There's like a Maersk that's carrying barrels, or maybe a smaller ship, like in the old days, maybe like a Clipper, you know, a ship of the line, and then there it is, I don't know.
Sonny00:52:23- Captain Jack Sparrow is going around with these bottles.
Vic00:52:26- We have many questions, and if you want to know more about it, go to jeffersonsbourbon.com, hint, hint. Please send us more bourbon. - If the good folks
Sonny00:52:33at Jefferson wanted to talk about this awesome bourbon, that would be fantastic. - We would be happy to discuss. - I think it's great, I think this is like
JVL00:52:40the Martin Scorsese of bourbons.
Vic00:52:44- You got 'em good, JVL, you got 'em good. Achievement unlocked. - That's funny levels, that's funny levels. And that's all the time we have on this week's episode of The Substandard. Questions, comments, complaints, compliments, tweet us @VictorinoMatus, @SonnyBunch. Again, be sure--
Sonny00:53:04- Tweet @JonathanLast, @JVLast. He has a lot of things he wants to hear about Martin Scorsese, guys.
JVL00:53:11- I really want to hear your opinions on Twitter, and I check it obsessively, so I will see everything you say. It'll come right to my retinas within seconds.
Vic00:53:18- Be sure to subscribe to us on iTunes or the Google, I mean, Google Play. Just type in Substandard on podcast, we're there. Leave a review, tell your friends. Until next time.
JVL00:53:35- Geez, I'm looking at our iTunes reviews. We have a guy who's like, "Hey, I'm a German fan of your podcast." So, Vic, your outreach is really paying off.
Sonny00:53:41- I am, well, to the German fan-- - Does this guy live in Argentina now?
Vic00:53:47- I want to say to the German fan, one of the other shows I enjoyed was Eres Vida Da. - Ah, on Netflix, where Hitler wakes up in modern-day Berlin, hilarious. That was recommended to me by Mike Goldfarb.
Sonny00:53:57- That's really, yeah.
JVL00:53:59You know, it's funny, Goldfarb-- - Look, this guy gave us five stars, so don't screw with him.
Vic00:54:02- No, I'm not kidding.
Sonny00:54:03- Thank you, thank you. - Eres Vida Da.
Vic00:54:05And Will Coleman to our German listeners.
Sonny00:54:09- It was funny, before I came over here, actually, Mr. One Michael Goldfarb, he said to me, you know, anything with Nazis in it, I'll watch. - Well, he watches-- - So I assume
Vic00:54:21that means he listens to us. - The Man in the High Castle, and then he told me I had to see Eres Vida Da, which means he's back, and it's nuts. There's a scene where Hitler has to, you know, they try to get Hitler an email address, and so he says, of course, you know, Adolf Hitler's like, "Sorry, it's taken." And so he says, "Well, I'll take Wolf's Lair." And the lady says, "Oh, great news, we've got Wolf's Lair 6." Anyway. Okay.
JVL00:54:45- Hey, I have our first correction for next week.
Vic00:54:46- All right. - Should I save it? - Yeah, save it. - Okay. - I will say one last thing for Christmas, my mother also got me a pair of jeans she thought I could use from Leaves or Levi's Loose Fit. - Dad jeans. - So I put them on, I said, "Man, "these are really comfortable." And then I looked in the mirror. - Elastic stretcher. - Oh, no, they're not, but they're so baggy, and I realized they were dad jeans, and maybe she didn't even do that by accident, but she's probably telling me, "Time to own up."
Sonny00:55:10- Yeah. - Yeah.
JVL00:55:12- Or mom jeans, maybe they're mom jeans. - So are these Lees or Levi's?
Sonny00:55:14- I think they're Levi's. - I hope they're Levi's, because Lees are for women.
JVL00:55:18- Oh, they're Wrangler, actually, they're Wrangler. - Buddy Lee, don't you remember the Buddy Lee? - That's right. - The fantastic Buddy Lee spots? - That was a great idea. - With the Buddy Lee action hero? - Women. - This is simply not true. - Do you remember how funny Buddy Lee was? We used to sit here watching this on QuickTimeAds. - Are you wearing Lees right now? - No, because you would not believe this, but I have bizarre preferences for jeans as well. - Diesel, he only wears Diesel. - No, I wear--
Sonny00:55:43- Do you get them from a surf manufacturer?
JVL00:55:44- Now you're trolling me. - I wear either--
Sonny00:55:47- Are they Jankos?
JVL00:55:49- Either Patagonia or Prana. This is the only thing I will wear.
Sonny00:55:52- I'm sorry, was that Patagonia or Prada?
JVL00:55:54- Prana. - Prada? - Prana.
Sonny00:55:57- Prada, the double wears?
JVL00:55:58- P-R-A-N-A, it's mountain climbing gear. They make fantastic jeans. - You know what I think about your-- - My uniform for this office, which drives Crystal insane, by the way, is that I show up wearing my sneakers-- - And your Prana jeans? - My Prana jeans. - Your Prana jeans. - And my Lost t-shirts, and this is what I wear every day. 'Cause you know why? 'Cause they don't pay me to get dressed here. They pay me to think.
Vic00:56:20- Yeah, you know what, when I see you in those jeans, JVL, I think, "I'm sure it's fine."
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