#353. 'Master And Commander: The Far Side of the World'
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This episode is a deep dive on Peter Weir's 2003 seafaring epic Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, and the hosts split into two camps: Sonny and Mike are unabashed admirers who praise it as a classy, handsome "hangout movie" about boats blowing each other up, while JVL — a self-described Patrick O'Brian completist who has read the whole Aubrey-Maturin series — likes the film but is more critical, arguing it's too dour and strips the books' buddy-cop warmth from the Jack Aubrey (Russell Crowe) and Stephen Maturin (Paul Bettany) friendship, even as he raves about the practical ship-building effects and how well the movie captures a warship as both machine and social system. Sonny frames 2003 as the year audiences chose the "bad place," picking Pirates of the Caribbean over this film at the box office, and confesses he bailed on the first Aubrey-Maturin audiobook because he can't follow dense fiction (especially nautical jargon) without reading it visually. Mike, revisiting the film for the first time since its theatrical release, says he wishes there were ten more of these movies and is now inspired to finally read the novels, and all three praise supporting players like young Max Pirkis (later young Octavian on Rome) and Billy Boyd. Before the movie talk, the trio runs through the usual long opening banter: JVL contrasts his buttoned-up eldest son with his cruder-mouthed youngest, Sonny confesses to becoming an unhinged "bad soccer parent" after a rival coach's gamesmanship at his son's rec league game, and Mike recounts a father badgering him and a teenage umpire over a disputed catcher's-interference call at his son's baseball game, plus a story about his son's first communion complete with "drag me to hell" jokes about dropping the host. They also run through box office talk (The Devil Wears Prada 2 holding at number one, Mortal Kombat II debuting at number two, Billie Eilish's single charting at number five) and Sonny's mixed review of the new Guy Ritchie film In the Grey before settling in on Master and Commander.
From the show notes
In 2003 we chose the greater of two weevils. (This sentence will make more sense once you've listened.)
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00Do you see those two weevils doctor I do which would you choose neither there's not a scrap of difference between them they're the same species of cuckoo Leo if you had to choose if you were forced to make a choice if there was no other response push me I would choose the right-hand weevil it has
Vic00:00:29significant advantage in both length and breadth there I have you are
Guest00:00:36completely dish do you not know that in the service one must always choose the lesser of two weevils
Mike00:00:59welcome to the sub beacon podcast I'm your co-host Mike Warren joining me as always are my two co-hosts who deserve another ration of rum Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch join us over at sub beacon.com tell your friends and family if they want to listen to the show they got to do it at sub beacon.com new episodes every Friday except for today's which is coming out a day later we're going to be talking about master and commander the far side of the world later on in the show but first JVL you got any pinball talk what's going on in your in your world I just
JVL00:01:36have a funny observation somebody somebody once wrote somebody wise that every child is born into a different family you know yes it's like the Heisenberg principle for for for family life and when flash my oldest was nine he was so like buttoned up and polite and that I I remember very his surfboard was stolen when we were at the beach one year of surfboard thieves and he was devastated and he asked me permission if he could just say the f-word once because he was so angry it was very very sweet did you grant it I did I did okay so that was the family flash was born into yes yeah gee money on the other hand was born into a family is the fourth child and a child whose older brother was seven years his senior right and so he and I were out playing basketball together the other day and he grabbed his crotch and looked at me and said are you looking for deez nuts just
Mike00:02:51out of nowhere totally gratuitously just yep that's the difference that is what
Sonny00:02:58I was looking for as a matter of fact Thank You G money now I I've had a
Mike00:03:04version of this and and I think we have established on this show that my tolerance for like bad language is is maybe a little a little lower than then my tolerance is total I don't even blink anymore sorry I should say you know what
JVL00:03:22I am you know what I am I am actually I'm Vince Vaughn in old school like you don't have to celebrate it don't have to celebrate it Frank that's all you could say it over you want but you don't have to celebrate it but but like that like
Mike00:03:35the difference is like my old so my oldest and youngest are essentially eight eight years apart and you know for the first it was like you know I don't know when the what age he was when he first even said the word but to us like like it was like not something that we were like saying found him you know and it's not something that like had he like he wouldn't even known to say it maybe you know whatever the age that he first said that word out loud in our presence he was almost certainly like in school by the time he was saying that meanwhile a couple of weeks ago my lovely wife sends me a video from you know what's going was like some day off of school the kids had and she's got a video of all three of my boys doing some ridiculous thing that they've decided to play which is they've taken large pillows and stuffed animals and stuff them in the their pants like in the back of their pants and are like walking around and they're like it's like the big butt crew and my like three-year-olds just walk around like big but big but singing sir mix a lot who knows what they're doing but it's like that's the difference right it's like they're looking at those yeah they like them anyway the point is is that g-money is it was born into a family where it's just different and I think that's the same with my kids so I can relate that's
Sonny00:05:15that's all I've got how are you boys Sonny what's going on I it's funny you mentioned it's funny you mentioned the the cursing thing I want to just relate one story real quick because it will tie into what I'm about the terrible dark secret I'm about to share oh my it's not really a secret talk happened in public not it happened in public not really a secret but very few people saw it but I will share it with you our valued listeners when I was when I was 15 I was a soccer referee as you guys know I believe I've talked about this five but I also played I also played soccer I also played like you know rec soccer I wasn't I wasn't on a travel team or anything yeah tennis was my sport I played soccer just for fun but the I played tennis professionally soccer was just for fun the the so what would happen a lot of the time is I would ref games and then I would play games and oftentimes in the games I was playing the refs I would have like worked with you know like we like it would have been and a lot of these are like you know there were some like there were some like grandpa refs and they were like other kid refs you know so like older older older older older guys or you know younger but whatever so the game in the game I am about to describe the referee the center ref was one of these like older you know father figure refs who was like a very who was his one of his things was he was a very big stickler for language he did not want to hear cursing on the pitch yeah cursing you drop in curse you drop in curses you're getting a yellow card at one point in this game we had a penalty kick and my my guy took the penalty kick and the keeper saved it it bounced off the keeper but as one does when you're you know what you teach the kids when when your teammate takes the penalty kick is you you rush in after the ball because if he misses or if it's blocked there's gonna be a loose ball there in front of the goal right yeah so I went in I did this and in fact the ball caromed to me and I put it I buried it in the back of the net but while I right after doing this I was tackled simultaneously from the front
JVL00:07:33and behind oh you know you know you know in a way you know for that kind of
Sonny00:07:37action usually you gotta pay double that kind of action cotton but I was I was tackled from the from I was like slide slid tackled from behind and the keeper had gotten up and like like barrel me into me from the top so I went down and smacked my head on the ground and got knocked out I had I probably had a mild concussion and when I came to a moment later everybody everybody's on top everyone's like standing around me and I'm like did it go in and they said yes I yay all right and the referee there he's like Sonny are you you okay and I was like I'm very good Tom or whatever his name was but I'm about to curse a lot would you mind going over there and he and he walked away so that that's good so that that I I say this I want to say that I say this to set the stage here because I have experience on both sides of the reffing coin I am a I'm a I'm a I wasn't when I was a teenager I did it and it was a it was it was a fine job I would not do it again because it doesn't pay very well but but it was it is what it is I now of course have a seven-year-old boy who plays soccer and they have they have a nice little team they've been playing together for three seasons and they you know they've got a they've got a they've got a good little crew and they each have kind of like settled into their skills whatever and we we play we play we play the same teams you know a couple times a year because we're in the same divisions and same leagues and the team we were playing last week the they had beaten us the first time we played and they they were like they they had kids with big legs which is like they they could really kick the ball they could really like wail on the ball and so
JVL00:09:26you don't mean physically big legs I mean the Simpsons episode gigantism
Sonny00:09:34exactly well no like the guy with the boot in the Australian episode but they
Guest00:09:40got they got they got kids with big legs and so like they would kick the ball
Sonny00:09:45hard and the balls would like go off they would that one of two things would happen the ball would either like go off our kids faces or our kids would do would do like a header like a rudimentary header and in in our league you're not supposed to do headers like you're like it's against the rules because they don't want the kids to get the repetitive brain trauma whatever but like it was a self-defense measure in this game and the coach on the other side this is the first thing he did the coach on the other side one of our kids like did a header because the ball was coming right at his face so he like he just like dipped his head down and like and he's and he starts screaming at the ref he's like he can't do headers we should get a free kick there right in front of the goal of course we should get a free kick there that should be that's our stop I thought we couldn't do headers coach I thought we couldn't do ref I thought we couldn't do headers and I just like I was just like dude calm down I like I and he was like you're not the ref you shut up or you're not the other you're not the coach who why are you even talking to me and I was just like all right this fucking asshole so I like I just went and sat down at that point I was like I'm not getting in a fight with this guy but like again it's not like our kids were jumping up and heading the ball into the goal it was like it was literally just so they didn't take it to the fucking face yeah it was incidental essentially it was intentional he intentionally put his head down and did that but again he did it like whatever so uh so then a couple plays later one of our kids uh one of our kids is doing a throw in and lifts his foot off the ground and again like in soccer you're supposed to have two feet on the ground you throw the ball you drag your toes that's how you you know and we're like teaching it's still a teaching league so usually when this happens the refs blow if if it's egregious enough the ref blows the play dead gives the ball back to the kid and gives him a second chance try like you keep your feet on the ground and throw the ball well one of our kids again like picked his foot while like i will not dispute it was not a legal throw in does this and then the other coach starts screaming about it so the ref ref blows the whistle and then the coach demands the ball for his team because that is like again if in in a real game in a league game in a professional game if you do an illegal throw in the other team gets to market zero very market very market zero dude
Guest00:12:12and and the ref gives the other team the ball
Sonny00:12:17and so they are entering a world of pain they get the ball and they start and and at this point went over the line at this point and I don't even I don't even blame the referee for this because again kids like 15 years old 14 years old like he's just like oh he's just trying to fucking get
JVL00:12:32out of there with his five dollars with 20 fucking bucks you know like whatever
Sonny00:12:39he gets paid and and and so I'm like I am NOT mad at the ref but I am at this point furious with this other coach in a way I have never been on the soccer field and I regret to say that what happened next is I became a bad soccer parent every time their kids got the ball their feet came off the fucking ground every time for their throw-ins every single time they'd either hop a little bit or one of their feet would come up and I would scream foots off the ground foots off the ground ref foots off the ground I every time every time I did it I'm not proud of this I'm not proud of this but I had been driven
Guest00:13:25to the edge by this individual and I like I it's it's it's I I regret it in
Sonny00:13:33the sense that I was modeling bad behavior I was modeling bad behavior for the other children and the other parents I feel shame at the same time I don't regret it for a second and I would do it again I would do it I would do it you were making a point Sonny I was making a point I was standing on principle and I think it's a totally reasonable principle if I like I've never done this we've had bad refs before who make bad calls I've never responded this way before we've had other we've had other bad parents before who were just like loud and obnoxious and like whatever what really what and I like pinpointed what aggravated me so much after the fact and it should have been pretty obvious at the time it's not that this guy was was being a dick it's not just that he was it's that he was being a to give his team a competitive advantage yes in a seven-year-old soccer game and I was just like I was I was like I cannot stand this I cannot stand for this I will not stand for this I will be I will not stand I will be as miserable a dickhead as you are I can do that I trust me afterwards my wife was like boy that was like you after about three beers at the Irish time Sonny what what happened what and I was just like I don't know man he put me he he put me to put my got my hand over my head right now so because folks can't see it but I was like he just he sent me right to here and I again I I regret that I did this in front of my children but I don't actually regret it that much I think
Mike00:15:07this guy had it coming I I would venture to guess that the other parents were watching you and going yes yes Sonny yes like you you are you are living the life they would all want well you say the things they all want to say we have we
Sonny00:15:29have bad soccer parent parents on our team I react we have and all of them just like oh my god they were they all got to be quiet for a change one I us one of us but I was I like anyway so that was my that was my last weekend so what I that's how I behaved that's how I acted last weekend shamefully but not so shamefully that I truly regret what I did this is something I guess I had I
Mike00:15:58didn't mention this but a similar thing happened in a in a baseball game but it was recently and it was a parent and it was a parent on our team and I have I mentioned this that it's I occupy this position on this particular team this is my middle son's team where besides our coach who's got older kids who have younger kids who are older than him I seem to be the person on our team with the most experience in this league and just like the the traditions and the conventions and the expectations of this of the league right in terms of everything from like you know hey like when we're the away team like we clean the field after the game or hey you gotta have somebody to like at this level you got to have somebody managing the dugout to make sure out and get hit by a bat yeah or or or worse they don't wander over to their moms in the middle of an inning for food you're looking for food when they're supposed to be watching the freaking game or like the the kid who's in the hole is supposed to go run out and get the bat and not like just be sitting around go like hey who's on bat who's on bat anyway all these things like I have the knowledge and I don't I don't relish having this knowledge it's just that's how it's the burden you have the burden of awareness but we did have a we did have a parent a father this is there's no mother who's doing this a father who was breaking a few of those conventions including chirping at the umpire about a missed catchers interference call and like I was keeping score I was watching but I frankly didn't quite see with without ambiguity a catchers interference and more importantly like it's unless the umpire has like clearly seen it like I've rarely seen a game at this level where catchers interference is called how old how old are these kids these kids are eight yeah wait what was the
Sonny00:18:15catcher what did the catcher like this was his glove in the way of the the bat while he was swinging like what was it or was he in front of the home plate no
Mike00:18:23no it was it was it was on the swing the bat grazed the catchers yeah yeah yeah yeah I didn't see it again with like unambiguously but it's possible and probably likely that that happened the umpire didn't call it the umpires 13 years old and so the father and it was the father's kid who was up to bat and he just starts shouting catchers interference and then he's coming to me because I am the I'm the the the dad slash sometimes assistant coach who has the most knowledge it's like do they not call catchers interference in this league and I'm literally standing right there behind this poor kid umpire and I honestly was like dude I don't know like I haven't seen it called and he starts losing it about this and I just kind of want to say like but you gotta keep it down like I said like in and then he's not technically a coach and really the the rule is that the only people who can truly talk who are really allowed I talk to the umpire sometimes when I keep in score just to make sure I heard their call correctly but the the convention is that the head coach is the one who talks to the umpire right yeah there's a dispute if there's an issue it's the head coach and that's it so this father goes out to at the next half inning to go take to go help the the pitcher warm up while the catchers getting the catchers gear on and I go out and go over to the umpires and start asking them about the catchers interference I'm just like I'm like but you cannot do that like did you just like it's you can't do that and it's it's it adds to the awkwardness of it because like at a certain point like I know or I could know some of these kids you know and like it's just anyway so it's just it there's there's a right level to be like involved and in and and and the right volume the right thing to in you know to get involved or talking about as a parent and like I'm basically where that is and I just need everybody to be
Sonny00:20:39where I am I need I need I am I'm doing it right I need everybody else to be like me no I I'm I normally you know you remember that Ben Affleck movie where he plays the alcoholic basketball coach and there's like there's like a there's a meme that came out of that where Ben Affleck is just doing like the like chill out hand at somebody and that's how I am 99.9% of the time at these soccer games it's like I the most I will ever say it's like calm down man just chill you know but man anyway anyway all right well uh you
Mike00:21:12all is forgiven Sonny your your your age is was justified um what's going on with me is not much I think I mentioned last time that my my middle son is was getting his first communion it all went out went off without a hitch it's wonderful he's in you know he's he's growing in his position and relationship in the church body but I will say I don't know if this is the case with everybody else so like when I my wife and I were growing up and we grew up in the same archdiocese and and all the same sort of conventions as we before we had our first communion we had like at least one probably more than one practice round with some unconsecrated hosts just to get in in our ice dice is growing up we also we also took the blood of Christ so so we tasted some of the wine as well just to kind of get you prepared and I had not realized this either with my first son or now my second is that the first time they're trying it is on the first communion like the first time they're going cold they're going in cold and like I don't know that it just seems and so like you know my son came back and he was like afterward he was sort of you know because they were all sitting in there you know with their with the girls and the boys and their dresses and suits and stuff he's like it tasted like cardboard and blah blah you know all this so he was sort of like mildly like oh that was weird but it was my parish because my
JVL00:22:44kids did First Communion in the Arlington diocese but maybe it was maybe
Mike00:22:48maybe it was it's no no you know what I bet
JVL00:22:51I bet we were in the Richmond diocese but potentially I don't know in Woodbridge because we were in Woodbridge and so different diocese right so you're in Arlington in Springfield Annandale right mm-hmm and I bet we were and so they did do practice rounds and it could be because we were in the Richmond diocese
Mike00:23:12and it could be parish to parish but I will say that there were there were a couple of moments that were like what I would call close calls these kids come in you know there was coming in hot it was just like it's like they put it on the tongue and it's kind of hanging out there for a while you take and you're just like you're just like oh no no no no please people please please no and and it just seems like the tongue guy well I'm not even I'm not on the tongue I take it in the hands in the hand yeah the only time I've taken animals when I'm holding when I'm holding an infant and I literally have no hands to which to put it in but I'm saying even if they take it in the hand and then then put it on the tongue and they're like again tasting it for the first time and there's like there's like it's like hanging on the tongue and you're sort of like you're hoping that that surface tension is so there's just couple where I was looking over I looked over and so my son's godfather is as you guys you guys know Andy Ferguson and I like look over at Andy and we're just like clutching clutching our chests and really fun some of these but but everything was fine everything was good and and so yes if you put the the body of Christ on your
Sonny00:24:32tongue and then it slips off and hits the floor does a hole open up in the ground and you get sucked right into hell yes I've seen it happen yeah do you
Mike00:24:41remember drag me to hell it was basically just like that I feel like this
Sonny00:24:44should be I feel like this is a movie like a kid accidentally drops the host and then his godfather jumps in to save him as the holes closing back up and they gotta you
Mike00:24:55know make their way to the staircase Sam Raimi I think this is basically what the
Sonny00:25:01Mel Gibson passion of the Christ sequel is great great I can't wait can't we do
Mike00:25:06that on the show all right well anyway that is all that is going on let us move on then to box office talk this week at the box office number one for two weeks in a row the devil wears Prada - with the 45 46 percent drop from its from its first weekend sound old pretty solid good that's right it must be it's it's it's coming in a total domestic 143 and a half million dollars number two at the box office Mortal Kombat 2 in its first week bringing in over 38 million dollars followed by number three Michael really really kind of dropping off here the Sheep Detectives number four and then number five this week Billie Eilish hit me hard and soft I'm seven million dollars sometimes sometimes sometimes you just think what would Vic do in this
Sonny00:26:03situation but but here we are Billie Eilish is on the cover of like Vogue or maybe Fanity Fair or something this month which I have a subscription to for some unknown reason I think I paid $10 for a subscription to one of the two and the the cover image of her on this magazine she looks so sad and pathetic it like makes me laugh every time I see it okay it's like this affected like oh I'm so sad I'm such a I'm such a tortured pop artist I'm just like you're stop it you're not this isn't even what you look like when I've seen you do interviews
Mike00:26:39you look happier than this I don't know what Billie Eilish songs sound like I could not tell you like I have no idea like are they like moody are they
Sonny00:26:50also happy are they like no idea I am I have no idea I have a lot of blind spots when it comes to modern pop music I like I couldn't I couldn't sing a Sabrina Carpenter song for instance but I like legit I'm not sure I've ever heard a Billie Eilish song I don't know no no idea Devil Wears Prada - is is holding well I mean look Michael continues to hold incredibly well 30% drop it'll probably actually be the number one movie that I've seen this weekend because there's there's a bunch of stuff that's coming out but it's all pretty did you know there's a new Guy Ritchie movie coming out this week what what no I gray in the gray I reviewed it this week but I have like I don't think there were any press screenings for it I it's a movie Henry Henry Cavill Jake Gyllenhaal Isaac Gonzalez it's his whole crew - Jason Statham and interesting Fisher Stevens is in it Rosamund Rosamund Pike is in it there's it's it's got it's got a nice little cast it's a it's a very strange movie but it is like there's a there's a I just bring this up because there's a Guy Ritchie movie coming out this weekend that probably cost in the 70 to 80 million dollar range to make I would guess judging by some of the explosions and the names in it and it is like I don't know if there have just been too many Guy Ritchie movies in recent years if there if we've reached peak terrible it's not it's not terrible but it is so I and I'm gonna just put it this way I enjoyed it because I like Guy Ritchie movies and this is very much a Guy Ritchie movie where you have a bunch of people who are like kind of impeccably dressed doing shenanigans like doing doing bits and doing and super cool dialogue making plots and you know they're super convoluted and so I I enjoyed it fine but it definitely feels like half of a movie and I don't mean like it ends and you're like where's the rest of the movie I mean it feels like a movie where every third scene has been removed from the movie and has been replaced with voiceover narration it's a it's it's apparently it's been on the shelf for like 18 months which it it feels like a movie that they filmed it and they shot it they put it together and it was like two and a half hours long and it wasn't very good anyway and so somebody was like well I guess we got to make this a hundred minutes long so at least it'll be bad and short instead of bad and long and again I don't think it's bad I enjoyed it fine but it is definitely it's definitely a movie for Guy Ritchie completists put it
Mike00:29:34that way so so I looked it up on Wikipedia and I have to say the single sentence under the heading premise feels like if you were to ask an AI chatbot to create a script of a Guy Ritchie movie this would be the prompt you would put in what is what's a secret elite team of agents is tasked with reclaiming a vast fortune
Sonny00:29:57stolen by a ruthless tyrant yeah like that's it that's that's that's about
JVL00:30:01right sum it up so what does this say about the state of the industry that this movie is theatrically released and not straight to streaming on Netflix so this is five years ago Netflix just buys this right maybe so this is an interesting
Sonny00:30:19it's an interesting kind of backstory here this is this is a movie that was put together by black bear which is kind of a new indie but like mid-tier indie like kind of Lionsgate level indie not really a 24 or neon indie it's but there it's a new indie label and they have gotten they have they are trying to move into distribution so their biggest their biggest movie is actually train dreams which they did end up selling to Netflix and it got a Best Picture nomination and and and some other Oscar noms but they are trying to they are trying to be distributors and they have made they've released some Jason Statham films you know they're in that again like Lionsgate circa 2008 to 2000 they did the imitation game well yeah but that's again that's a movie they they've just produced and I see but they yeah they did the Ministry
Mike00:31:15of in gentlemen warfare which was yeah right so they they've they've been
Sonny00:31:18producing movies like this for a while but they want to be distributors they think they can do distribution and distribution is very hard let's look for instance at the new Guy Ritchie movie that they're distributing nobody knows about distribution is hard I don't get around to it look at around to it it's
Mike00:31:35it's tricky all right any other box office thoughts no no okay well then we should move on and discuss the movie of the week which is inspired I think by our discussion last week two weeks ago whenever that was what were we talking about who am I where am I about master about master and commander we all three rewatched master commander the far side of the world I don't know if did anybody read any of
Sonny00:32:05the any of the books in the I I listened to the first audiobook in the
JVL00:32:14Aubrey Matterin series okay okay I just watched the movie I having I mean it's been a little while since I've listened to any of the right books but I have done the whole thing right Patrick O'Brien completist and so I rewatched the movie and it reconfirmed almost exactly my initial thoughts
Mike00:32:33we'll get there but Sonny why don't you give us a review of this
JVL00:32:3820 plus year old are you all right are you reviewing the book or the movie so
Sonny00:32:43I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do I'm gonna do a review of the movie and then discuss my issues with listening to the book because I have I have I have problems well I have problems that go beyond the book it's not the books fault really is basically what I'm about to say I'm spoiler okay master and commander 2003 in 2003 folks we were given a choice we were given two paths one to a bright shining future one to a dark depressing miserable future in 2003 we were given to giant action-adventure boat movies we were giving Pirates of the Caribbean the first one of those starring Johnny Depp curse about cost about 200 million dollars ended up grossing is 700 million dollars or something like that people loved it people loved that crazy Johnny Depp with his Paul a pop pop ish look at
Guest00:33:41me I'm a pirate but I'm also yeah best start believing in stories you're
Sonny00:33:47in one and then several months later in time for award season we were given Peter Weir's master and commander a classy similar this is a similar length actually a similar budget action-adventure movie that is set on the ocean and it takes the ideas of being a seaman seriously and that movie bombed it bombed at the box office with audiences said no we don't want this we will only give you 200 million dollars in box office receipts for this 150 million dollar movie no more master and commander movies for you of course we would go on to have 17,000 more Pirates of the Caribbean films that would each gross approximately 7 billion dollars and so good good for Disney and 20th Century Fox or whoever I like at the time but but no no such luck for no such luck for the actually no so Pirates of the Caribbean was Disney 20th Century Fox and Miramax weirdly financed master and commander all right so let's get that out of the way that's let's we chose that we chose the bad place we chose the bad place and that's this is one of the many reasons we are where we are is because we don't have five Aubrey matter and matter in films we have five Pirates of the Caribbean films master and commander 20 23 2003 you the best title card of all time non Star Wars edition April 1805 Napoleon is master of Europe only the British fleet stands before him oceans are now battlefields this is wonderful this is how this is every very good start this way every movie should start this way and we start on the ocean and they're
Mike00:35:37just at sea and they're doing can I stop you there though Sonny should shouldn't shouldn't the opening have said there are heroes on all sides they're here
?00:35:47are heroes on all sides they're heroes on all sides they're heroes on all
Sonny00:35:47sides heroes on both sides sorry go ahead well this is it's interesting because that is kind of what the book gets at yeah all right so basically the long and the short of it is Russell Crowe has been sent to the new world to find a French ship that is just doing dead just wreaking havoc in the in the new world they've got to stop this boat before it can do more damage and they're gonna get it even though even though this book this this boat is out gutting them and it's faster than them and it's thicker than them it's got the thick hole that one of the crew men see saw being built in Boston he there were our our 14 pounders will never penetrate its side or whatever whatever the line is and here is what this movie is this movie is just a series of engagements on the ocean it's it's just it just takes you from sequence to sequence and we get we get you know interactions of the crew and the men and we get the relationship between Aubrey again played by Russell Crowe and Matterin who is the ship's doctor and a learned individual and he wants to he just wants to look at his bugs and he wants to study the animals and the flora and the fauna and in between these sequences it's all punctuated with these awesome boat fights it's just it and and this is I just want to say that I understand that there's lots of intrigue and there's you know there's rank there's bureaucratic wrangling in the books and there's more of the relationship with Aubrey and Matterin and their various women and international affairs and all that stuff and I say you don't need any of that in this movie you don't need a single scintilla of that you just read you just need boats you just need boats shooting at each other and you need people being blown up and you need I don't know what is it sodomy rum in the lash that's all you need that's all that's all you need and it's funny it's funny too in the book there is no sodomy in the movie well there's no sodomy in the movie and they make a very they make like repeatedly in this in this in the first book they talk about how sodomy is punished by death and that like if you get caught buggering the goats you're gonna get strung up by the by the by the fleet anyway kind of interesting little side note there I I greatly greatly enjoy this movie because it is just it is this very kind of solid throwback to a film that is simply concerned with doing one thing and doing doing it pretty well and there's no extraneous nonsense Russell this is Russell Crowe not quite at it like the the waning edge of his peak he is he you know he's he's starting to come down his his his peak is insider gladiator beautiful mind beautiful mind and this comes out in 2003 which is right after a beautiful mind and it like he's he's getting a little softer he's getting a little you know but he's still he's still fantastic in this role I love the movie I love everything about it now as I said on the show a couple weeks ago I was I listened to I listened to the first of these books I I had a long drive where I knocked out like 12 hours of of it and then you know I kind of caught up around the end of it and this is not a criticism of the books I want to make this very clear well it's it's not it's not a criticism of the book specifically my problem is I cannot listen to novels I cannot I cannot there's something I for some reason I just have trouble my visual my
JVL00:39:45there's something I can't listen to non-fiction I I can only listen to
Sonny00:39:50non-fiction I can only listen to fiction I'll listen to a book all I'll listen to a fiction I'll listen to a non-fiction book all day long I'll listen I occasionally listen to podcasts like movie podcasts but I I will say that I like I just I cannot listen to fiction because I have trouble keeping track of everything in my head when I can't absorb it visually and the other problem here is that this this story in particular only works for me visually because there's so much nautical language and verbiage they're talking about different kinds of fucking sales over and over again and I'm just like I don't know I not by the end by the end of it I'm like kind of understanding the mizzen the mizzen the bosun I like I don't I have I don't know these words I don't know I'm not a sailor I don't know I couldn't I couldn't tell you a knot from a from a hole in the lashing yeah a lash so the the audiobook version of this which I agree with you JBL is very magnificently read the the guy who does a very good job he he hits the different timbres of the voices I but I just man I couldn't I couldn't fucking follow it I just I couldn't follow it and I like to the extent that I kept finding myself thinking ah I might just read this and on a physical in a physical form so I can actually like you know follow it anyway I I didn't I didn't care for the audiobook but this is not this is not the novel or the novel readers fault this is a known problem with me and you this is a Sonny Bunch this is Sonny Bunch problem this is not a this is not a
Mike00:41:37master and commander problem so okay well JBL I think now is the is the right time to to explain whether or not your initial view on this film
JVL00:41:53holds here's the thing this is a it's a dour movie everybody dies everything that can go wrong goes wrong the musical cues are really intense and it's beautiful it has the single best special effect of the year that year which is they built the fucking boat yeah now it is not a full-size version of the HMS surprise but I I've seen this thing like docked at San Diego uh Harbor and it's glorious there's a scene in very very early where the camera is just pointing up through the riggings and you see all the lines that are needed to make something like this function and again this is just something that no CGI could or would ever do right just I mean you could feel every sinew of thread used to make each one of these ropes and there are a handful of moments in the movie which get at the sort of fun of the books because the book the books are basically buddy cop movies they're not entirely buddy cop because there's a lot of like Navy porn and there's also a little bit of spy novel and there's also a little bit of you know Elizabethan England where you're learning about the politics like the politics of the Navy list right which is that you know you you are on a list say Georgia right so you're on a list to become a captain but you gotta wait till people above you die right and and this just it's just so serious and I also don't like the characterizations of Aubrey and Maturin in the movie because in the Aubrey Aubrey in the books is disguised like fun like everything about him is fun and there there are maybe three scenes in which Russell Crowe gets this smile on his face like as their head to combat he's like oh isn't this a great adventure right you're like yes no that's it yes yes I want but then we're you know
Mike00:44:14he's gotten the best of me twice he won't get the best of me again you know
JVL00:44:17it's like come on man and Maturin they turn Maturin into a fucking pussy like Maturin is this like kind of whiny but you promised I'd get to go see my Beatles and they make him into a bitch and he's not Maturin is like he's a spy he's he's much smarter than Jack is but he is Jack's right-hand man like he is uh Robert Duvall to to to to Jack's godfather and there is no daylight between the two of them in in the and that's why they're fun to be with and the books give you barely if the movie honestly you you're not entirely clear how close they are like they they fight a bunch between the two of them and you know or criticize Maturin is criticizing the decisions that Jack is making and Jack is yelling at him about you don't understand duty and honestly if you read the books after watching this you would be shocked at how close the two of them are and how the the books are really about them having adventures out on the ocean
Sonny00:45:26right when one thing that is very interesting lead different between at least the the first book and and this movie is that in the books they are functionally pirates yes they they are they are so like Aubrey is basically going around just stealing ships that that the that merchant letters of mark that they are exactly they're so they are basically just stealing merchant ships from countries that are flagged under nations that are at war with Britain and so they're they're just going around and like and it's like a big prize they get a ton of money if you you know they there's a whole section about divvying up the shares of like the captain gets one eighth and you know somebody or that's why
JVL00:46:11people signed up to go into the Navy. Navy is because it was a way to get rich because if you were on with a good captain and part of the thing about Daisy Lucky Jack Lucky Jack Aubrey now everybody wants to crew with him because a he really believes in a happy ship. That's the other thing this this ship is the the crew of the HMS surprise in the movie is a little like oh gosh, maybe we're cursed. Maybe we're it looks like everybody wants to roll with Jack Aubrey because that guy is a he's money and be he's a really good captain like good captains care about it being a happy ship because happy ships fight better. Yeah. You know and I just again when I saw the movie having not read the books, I was like, yeah, this is okay. Like I you know, it's very handsome to look at. There's a lot to like about it. Um but after reading books, I just like they had it. They had it right there. You could see the flashes of it. Like you see the moments when they're having fun together. You see the moments when there's that joie de vivre on Aubrey's face as he's got that piratical. Oh,
Mike00:47:18what if we did this? You know? Yeah. Uh but it's but that's
Sonny00:47:22like it's it's a big difference in the story too because like in the in the first book at least this isn't really the trying to get this French ship is not really right isn't isn't part of it at all. So like he has a mission like he has a mission from the the king of England and it is you gotta capture this boat. You gotta capture or sink this boat like they are they are **** **** up. You gotta you gotta do this and that's your duty and again it's just a very different it's a very different vibe than like go around and steal as many
Mike00:47:53galleons as you can. Yeah. So so okay so I have maybe a synthesis on on I'm sorry one last thing. Oh please go ahead.
JVL00:48:02A thing the movie does very well is portraying how unbelievably complicated as pieces of machinery physical machinery and pieces of social engineering a British warship was. Yup. Because they are accomplishing all sorts of like very complicated tasks by doing things like having systems of bells or you know or how do you find you know dropping the dropping the lead overboard to see what your depth is and what the floor the ocean is right and the the social systems for you know all hands right. They've got them
Mike00:48:42Marines who are in a different uniform and all of that. That's
JVL00:48:46very. And the movie does that really well without becoming
Mike00:48:49burdensome I think. So I totally agree. So okay. This is this is an unfair way to evaluate a film. But but I but it's it's what I was thinking as I was rewatching it which is this would have been better luck had they been able to make the sequels and the franchise that that that was clearly this was being set up for. Um because I think I think Sonny is right that the the story here that they've chosen to tell which I gather is sort of you know a conglomeration of stories from different novels. Um they sort of mixed them together. Um it it does not lend. It's master
Sonny00:49:38and commander and then far side of the world, right? Like those are the two.
Mike00:49:42Right. And I'm sure there's like elements of other books that are in there but it does not necessarily the story itself. The story that this movie is telling does not necessarily lend itself well to the kind of light the the light tone, the lighter tone I should say that that JVL you seem to love about the novels. Um and so I wonder had they been able to sort of make more and broaden this world of these novels into additional movies maybe taken in its totality a franchise of like say three or of these types of movies maybe would have pulled it off in a way that was more satisfying. I don't know. I don't even think they need to change the plot honestly. Like. Oh, I'm not even. Stuff that's
JVL00:50:29really dour. Like, you know, oh, that guy's bad. That one junior officer's bad luck. He's gotta kill himself. Otherwise, we're, you know, like that's a really dour scene. Well, it
Mike00:50:38doesn't need that. It's a buzzkill. Regardless, I I found myself watching this movie this time around 23 years later cuz I saw it in the theater when it came out and I and I loved it then. I had the same feeling which was like I can't wait for the next one. That was my feeling at the end of of watching it again. It was like Remo Williams. Uh just lamenting that that we can't get another one because I don't know about you guys. This it clearly feels JVL you you're sort of disappointed by this element of it but to me it was just like kind of a an ultimate hangout movie like we're hanging out on the high seas and having like naval battles and uh and and we're drinking rum and we're singing songs and playing music and having dinner and telling stories and we're discussing philosophy of leadership and philosophy of uh and and and you know biology and all of these things like I like all I wanted to do was hang out with these characters more and that feeling was I I felt it again rewatching this I mean everything and and and you layer that on to I think the beauty of it I I that first scene after the title card where they're just like like just when you're just seeing the ship in the water uh and and it's and and they have that first battle and just the the tension behind it all where they're like wait did I did I just see a ship in the fog like all of that builds so well and it's so wonderful to I I don't know I I just loved it I don't think uh I I don't know if I would feel differently had I read these novels and I want now I want to read them like on your recommendation you would love them um you'll love them so so I I think that's like that's my next that's my next task is to get them and and I do like to read them on I'm on paper but as a film as a movie like I just it was I I do think Russell Crowe's at the top of his game still here and uh I love Paul Bettany like I I think like they're what they what they had in A Beautiful Mind like continues here in a way that I think is they're perfectly cast they're they they truly are um and uh and I I think maybe some of the things you're looking for JBL maybe they're a little more subtle in this in this movie the sort of the way in which their characters relationship is more shown than spoken um I don't know it worked for me and it worked for me then and it works for me now and I just I I wish we were watch I wish we had ten more of these movies. Sonny. Well, you
Sonny00:53:31know how many Jack Sparrow movies we have is more more than enough to make up for it. I will say one of the one of the interesting things about this movie and I mentioned this a couple weeks ago is that it has had this weird second life on amongst like film nerd types and like part of this is there's some vulgar tourism with Peter Weir like Peter Weir is is a person who is like had kind of a resurgence as you know a a well a well regarded director for good reason good director and part of it is like part of it is you know Russell Crowe is great whatever but a big part of it I think is just like it is a vibes and hang out movie. It is like it's a lot like it's it's kind of like the Michael Mann films like Miami Vice or whatever right where it's just like it's dudes being dudes and hanging out and like and this is like the most aggressive like apex version of that there is literally I believe there's literally one female character seen in the movie it's the silent native girl there's a couple of them there's like one
Mike00:54:35or two of them in those little boats as they're but in those in
Sonny00:54:37those little boats it's like you see and you see Jack kind of like longingly looking at her and you and you're like okay I guess this means he's not a homosexual okay we can move on now let's let's go let's get back to the by the way let's get
Mike00:54:49back to the not that there's anything wrong with it so to this point you know I always ask my lovely bride if she would like to join me in watching the films and and many times she does join me in watching the movies that we discuss on this podcast I I just said I said how would you like to watch Master and Commander of the Far Side of the World for the podcast and like without missing a beat with like no pause at the end of my question she was like hell no she just immediately said no there's she's like there's I would because I had to watch it over two nights she was like I would rather just like spend my time doing anything else than watch that movie with you it's
Sonny00:55:28like alright has she never seen it has she seen it before no
Mike00:55:30she's never seen it she has no interest she has no interest she's like there's nothing she's like there's nothing in
Sonny00:55:36there for me but that's there's an element of that that's not that she's not wrong precisely um and and this is one reason why it is so it's so fascinating to me that this is a like favorite of film Twitter and like that whole set is because again it is like it is an aggressively masculine it's it's a movie that fails the Bechdel test on every level there's not like there my friend Allison Bechdel who I
JVL00:56:02was emailing with earlier exactly exactly there's there
Sonny00:56:05are not two did you ask her about this person in it none of them are named and they have zero lines of dialogue about anything it's a it's like it's the it's the
JVL00:56:13the this is the the boy book smart right it's just a movie that has nothing for women in it and that's okay right book smart had nothing for men I think that's all right I think that's basically boys uh okay uh all right well any other
Mike00:56:26thoughts on uh on Master Command very quickly yes very
JVL00:56:30quickly so one of the charming pieces of the the film is the inclusion of Max Perkis who is the young blonde kid who is uh yes one of the the young charges because the thing that you learn from the books is that uh for second and third sons of noble families they would often because you know those are just spares you don't really need those boys a thing you might do is send them off into the British Navy at the
Sonny00:56:58age of eleven I would just be on the boat just be on the
JVL00:57:02boat and there is there is a moment when they are like they're getting ready for a battle right and a lot of these battles are slow motion it's very rare to get surprised right normally like you see where the other guy is and you've got like three days of chasing before the two of you are going to wind up exchanging but you know like everybody's getting ready and uh the this little kid Max Burke is a little blonde kid has like a question about using a sextant or something and
Mike00:57:31Aubrey's like oh yeah son let me come come over here let me
Sonny00:57:34show you how to do I love that shit oh I love it I I love that
JVL00:57:39actor too uh so I do too he's in Rome he was Augustus in Rome young he plays Octavian he plays Octavian in Rome yes and there is I'll never forget because I liked that series I only watched like the first season of it but he so he's the he's a young Octavian in Rome and so you know what he's gonna grow up to become and he plays his part the entire time like he is just watching everything happening around him right mm and there's a scene in which one of the two like main guys one of the two leads is hired to teach him how to sword fight and he says to him you know with practice you could become like a middling swordsman and he just looks at this grown man with disdain and says the graveyards are full middling swordsman and this kid never acted again he's got four acting credits in his entire life yeah and he's now like our age and I I wonder what happened to him and what he went on to do because he was a
Mike00:58:42fantastic child actor yeah he's he's like he is my age or just just a little younger yeah I also I I I think I mentioned this when we talked about last time I I always love seeing Billy Boyd I wish we had had more Billy Boyd like in this he's just he's just a delight to see on screen and James Darcy plays the plays the Mr. Pullings who is a recurring
JVL00:59:04character in the books so he is he is basically first mate and like it is a big deal in the books when he finally does get his own command because he is learning from and he is like a great student and a great character and fun yeah he's great Pullings Tom Pullings A plus all right okay any other
Mike00:59:22any other thoughts no all right well that is all the time we are going to give to this episode join us over at subbeacon.com tell your friends and family and we will talk to you next time
Sonny00:59:38no it's funny it's funny I was watching I was watching Master and Commander again I was like God who is that kid I know him from somewhere and then it hit me I was like oh that's right Rome Rome he was he was young young Augustus it's interesting
Mike00:59:52there's like all of these like British actors that like really don't have any kind of footprint otherwise in in Hollywood I mean you know maybe maybe they're character actors and and certain things or they probably like have appearances on things like Game of Thrones you know that I've you know yeah you know if if I watched that show the whole way through I would I would sort of know what's going on but I did I did notice one of the guys the guy who's the who's the the carpenter is played by Tony Dolan who played bassist it was the bassist for Venom the the heavy metal band Venom so it's like you know it's it's interesting you know these people just pop up every every once in a while these these kinds of movies oh I just why couldn't they have made one more just one more I'll tell you
Sonny01:00:38why. expensive as hell these movies are not you know it's hard
Mike01:00:42shooting on the boat they have the boat it was on the water too yeah so yeah maybe maybe they'll make another Pirates of the Caribbean and this one this one will live up to the first
Sonny01:00:54one oh that's in the works don't worry Jerry Bruckheimer's all over it I'm sure it'll be fine.
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