#339. 'Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'
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Marking the 25th anniversary theatrical rerelease, the crew devotes the back half of the show to unanimous, grade-free adoration of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: Sonny calls it the best of the trilogy precisely because of its small scale (no real action set piece until the Mines of Moria, roughly two hours in) and singles out the "remarkably efficient" Cate Blanchett-narrated opening as a weirdly gothic sibling to Sam Raimi's Spider-Man montages; JVL declares it "a perfect movie" with "not a frame out of place," marveling at how the screenplay compresses the book's Weathertop timeline and arguing no one has successfully replicated its magic since (Star Wars spawned a genre, Fellowship spawned nothing); and Mike, drawing on childhood memories of seeing it on release, gushes over Howard Shore's score, the forced-perspective hobbit effects, and the Frodo-Sam bond, which sparks a digression with JVL about the very British, unspoken-homoerotic "officer and batman" dynamic (Mike ties it to Tolkien's WWI service) that has no real American analog. Before getting there, the trio spends its usual long opening stretch on personal catch-ups: Sonny recounts Dallas getting paralyzed by an ice storm that turned his street into a sledding "luge" and four housebound kids driving him crazy; JVL relays a scary-then-funny story from friend Adam Kuiper about a toddler stranded on an icy hill, then details his agonizing pinball-buying dilemma between a Deadpool premium available immediately from a local dealer named Vince ("the nice price") versus the harder-to-find, more moddable Godzilla machine, ultimately talking himself (with the others' encouragement) into the Deadpool now and a Godzilla later; and Mike describes a grim, whole-family stomach-bug weekend triggered by his son throwing up at a post-basketball-game lunch. They also run through a bleak box office weekend (roughly $11 million at #1, blamed on the snowstorm and January doldrums), the flop of AI-judge thriller Mercy, Zootopia 2 overtaking Avatar: Fire and Ash, Marty Supreme becoming A24's highest-grosser amid Safdie-brothers Oscar-campaign drama, and note wryly that all three LOTR films cracked the top 11 that week despite minimal screenings. The show wraps on a quick Slow Horses aside noting that the actor playing River's sinister father in that show is the same Hugo Weaving who plays the noble Elrond here.
From the show notes
Peak cinema right here, folks, it's been all downhill ever since. (Streaming on HBO Max, assuming you don't own it on at least two different disc formats.)
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00The world has changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was, is lost. For none now live, who remember it.
Mike00:00:30Welcome to the Sub-Beacon Podcast. I'm your co-host, Mike Warren. Joining me, as always, are my two co-hosts. You could learn all there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet, after a hundred years, they can still surprise you. Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Join us over at Sub-Beacon.com. Sub-Beacon.com. Tell your friends and family, if they want to listen to the show, they got to do it at Sub-Beacon.com. New episodes every Friday morning. At Sub-Beacon.com. We are going to be talking about The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, later on in the show. But first, we're going to put JVL on the back burner here, because we're going to just put him back there. We're coming back to you, JVL. Sonny, what is going on with you? I know you can wait. I know you can wait. Sonny, what's happening?
Sonny00:01:25Oh, not much. I really monkey pawed everything, you guys. I apologize. I apologize for the weather in America the last week or so, because I was like, I want it to be cold in Texas. I'm tired of this, like, 60 degree nonsense. It got cold. All right. We got we got like it's not as bad as as certain places, but we got a solid two inches of ice plus, you know, a little bit a little bit of snow or whatever, which stuck to the ground and froze and like just and kept. So are my children? Did not go to school this week. They are going to school on Friday. It's Monday, Monday through Thursday. They were out. They were out every day. But the but it was it was kind of amazing because, like, usually in my neighborhood, you know, it's like snows and it ices or whatever, but it's not really good for there's no sledding to be done. You're not you're not doing any sledding because it's just kind of ice and and slushy and not not particularly good. But, you know, I live at the top of a hill. And. The the hill that I live on turned into a straight up ice luge this week. I mean, it was it was it was amazing. I like kids were getting up to, you know, twenty five, thirty miles an hour going down this thing. It was a it was something else. So that was that was kind of fun. But again, my children have been home for four days and it's gotten to the point where, like, I see things sitting around and it like my eye starts to twitch. I'm like, put that away to clean up this house. I can't live like. This anymore. It's not it's not good for anybody. It's not nobody.
Mike00:03:04The filth and things that they just sort of like, like when they're there all the time that just accumulate. It's it's amazing.
Sonny00:03:11What's just it's just stuff everywhere. It's just like they just like drop things on the ground and they stay there for days, days and I'm like, how do you people live like this? How do you how do you children not go crazy living in this?
Mike00:03:30It's filth, but we had we had similar a similar situation where the ice the ice luge that could be that could be written like so we have a giant hill in our neighborhood that is always like the great place to sled when it snows, but like after the like on the first day of the snowstorm, one of my kids went down it and like there were some kids doing sledding there. But like then. The ice really came and it was you couldn't do it anymore. You like literally could not walk up the hill to get to the top to go back down it again. And so there's all these small hills like around my house is what my kids have been going down and they've been having a blast because it's like as you like totally frictionless and like they don't go very far, but they actually get fast in a very short amount of time. And it's that's that's fun. You know, I like this storm.
Sonny00:04:29This storm was pretty. While I like I again, this is this is kind of how it always is in Dallas, where you get one stormy year and it's we get two inches of ice. And because, again, I've described this in the past, but the snowplow situation is non-existent. There's no snowplow. You just the you just wait for the sun to come out and it melts it away. And usually that takes about a day. Usually that that happens in a day or maybe two days. But again, four days and finally just driving home tonight for the first time, I did not hit like a patch of ice. That made my car skid. So it was a it was a it was a whole it was a thing. So anyway, kids are going back in the morning. Good for him.
JVL00:05:08Mike Warren, I will share a story with you from our mutual friend. Yes. Adam Kuiper, who reported to us that on their snow day, his two older children who are. Ten and ten and seven, I think.
Mike00:05:25Yeah, that sounds right.
JVL00:05:27We're outside playing and came to the front door and said. Mommy, daddy, will you send Arthur out? Who is the number three? We want him to come play with us. This is very sweet. But Arthur had already been outside and they had forgotten about it and lost him. And this four year old had because they are in Annandale. Yes. And he had slid down the hill on their house and into a neighbor's yard and had been trying to get back. Up the hill, but couldn't.
Mike00:06:01So he just kept sliding back down and they came out and found him. That's that's frightening. But also, I totally, totally, totally.
JVL00:06:12Because no one died or lost fingers in frostbite.
Mike00:06:15We could all laugh about it. Nobody. Nobody fell in a culvert or anything like that. The well, in our in our neck of the woods. Yes. As I've said, we've had the same sort of situation. We've actually had we're going to have no school all week. Part of that is that this was supposed to be the end of the quarter and the last two days of this week were already scheduled to be off. But but basically school has been closed and I would actually not be surprised if school is closed on this coming Monday as well. It's just I mean, we have I've never seen snow like this, but that's not actually what I want to talk about. What I would talk about was something else that affected. Our family this week and has in many ways rocked me to my core. It has contributed to the stir craziness that that we're all like going through right now. So on over the weekend, actually, is actually the day before the snowstorm. So that was Saturday at a basketball game. We won. Congratulations to us. Thank you very much. First first one in the season for for the second graders took the. Took all the boys out for lunch while while the while lady and her friends did some stuff at our house and my middle son having just won his basketball game decided to at the restaurant throw up on on the on the floor of the restaurant. Out of excitement or was he coming down with the bug? We didn't know. We didn't know. He had just been running around, chugged a bunch. A water like who knows? He's like, go to the bathroom. He's like, he's like, I want to eat still, you know, all right, great. But like that is him, by the way, like that, like like literally he could like have his arm amputated in some terrible accident and be like, I'm good. Let's go. Let's go on. Let's let's let's let's keep, you know, give me some pizza. So like we go home and it's like it's it's it's getting it's it's not going. It happens again at home. A couple of times like, oh, great. So now it's it's like, when are the rest of us going to get this? Well, we all got it on Sunday night going into Monday morning. And like, let me tell like the the for the rest of us, the for rest of us who were not sick initially, we all were sick. It's like all starting at the same time. Terrible, right? For like, we're up all night. We're up all night with the oldest and the youngest dealing with that. And meanwhile, like it's it's the incubation that has been happening is like, you know, the eggs that has been incubating breaks in our bodies. And we also get sick. There's a without revealing too much. It's like Monday morning. I record a podcast for my day job and I got up and I did the podcast and like everything's clear. We get the room toned. And, you know, to get make sure everything's fine with the producers and click off. And within 90 seconds, now I'm now I'm throwing up. So like I crawl into bed.
Sonny00:09:39Did you feel it coming during the show? Was this one of the things you're like?
Mike00:09:43It was one of those things where like it's wrap it up. I don't know if this is just me or or what. But like if like I'm like doing a podcast or when I used to be on TV all the time, like like if I, you know, I don't have to go to the bathroom when I'm on TV. I don't have to sneeze when I'm on TV. It's like there's something about being in the zone where I'm like ready to go. But then like as soon as it's off, it's like, oh, like I got to sneeze now or I got to I got to pee now, you know, sort of thing. So it was kind of that situation where all of a sudden it was like, turn it off. It's like, oh, no, oh, no. Anyway, again, I'll spare you the gory details. But we literally there were four of us. In bed all day on Monday, like all day, like I just crawled right into bed and two things. One, it actually was great because we were all sick at the same time. Like it would not have been a big deal, except if the three year old had not been sick. But like everybody else in the house were sick. I mean, it would have been a disaster because like he still needs like all kinds of attention. You know, he needs to like, you know, he still comes to us and we said, I got to go potty or, you know, I need something to eat, blah, blah, blah.
Sonny00:11:04And he says, today's the day you become a man, son. You're going to have to care for the go out and kill a bear. Bring it back. Bring back meat.
Mike00:11:13So he but so but he's sick as well. So it's like all mild with him because he's three. Like he's fine with his rocks, the grownups. And except my second grader who like by Monday has like completely. Completely recovered like he like he is not feeling bad at all. He is just great, which, again, is like a nice little like light at the end of the tunnel. It's like, oh, well, we're going to be fine by Wednesday. Like this is the same bug. This is a short term bug. So we'll be fine by Wednesday. You know, however great that makes us feel at the moment. No, not not much. But I will say my almost eight year old had the absolute best day of his life. Because nobody was paying any attention. The man of the house. He was the man of the house. He couldn't go outside because of the snow. So he literally just he at the end of the day, he like I like got up to like get some water or something.
JVL00:12:14Ten straight hours of Nintendo.
Mike00:12:15It was like he was like, I played on screens all day. And I was like, did you play on the same screen? He goes, no, no, I play on the computer and I put on the Nintendo. It's like, oh, great job. Awesome. Awesome. So like, I don't know if he'll ever. Like hit a higher high than than than that Monday. So anyway, we're all feeling better. We're all like much better. But I will say the only thing I'll say is that like we don't get sick in our house very often. And this is not a brag. This is not whatever. It's just like we don't have like those kind of illnesses. And and so it's it rocks you in that way, too, because you're just not like not prepared. And all of a sudden you're just you're just like thrown on your ass and you just don't. It's. It's terrible. But I have not experienced in a long time the the experience that you get when you have GI illnesses, which is like after the fact, even when you're better, like certain foods, you're just like, I can't. Like we had like I can't have soup. Like I just like that. Whatever chicken soup, you know, my wife made. I was like, I can't have it. Like it's making me physically ill to even smell it. And like half. Of our refrigerator, we're just like we can't we have to throw out these left like anything we ate before we got sick, like the two or three days before that we're like leftovers like nope, like done can't eat it. It's like it must be a defense mechanism or something.
JVL00:13:43Worst food poisoning I ever got was the night before Michael Goldfarb's wedding and I ate at what was the Georgia Browns, Georgia Browns. Oh, yeah. I had shrimp and grits there and I missed Mike's wedding because of it. Like I. Had like a hundred three fever. I was throwing up. It was ungodly. It was a decade before I could make myself eat shrimp again. Yeah.
Mike00:14:09A decade.
JVL00:14:10I was just like every time I saw I was like, nope, I remember that. Disgusting.
Mike00:14:15Anyway, everybody's better in the Warren house. Don't worry. You know, but it was it was it shook me to my core. It's like, wow, this is, you know, we're all living on the edge of a knife here. So anyway. Anyway, that's all that's happening. JVL, what is going on with you?
JVL00:14:33The pinball journey. I don't know what people think about this, but we've had some real movement. So I mentioned in one of my other shows that I was on this pinball journey and the other show, which is a slightly larger listenership, a number of people who listen to that are also into pinball and are on pin side. And they looked me up and DM me. And so now some pinball buddies that I we messaged. Board back and forth to each other. And so I have some help, some Sherpas, and I've narrowed it down, narrowed it down to two machines because I also discovered that in the next town over from me is a guy who does pinball. And so he, you know, it's like a small industrial space. And he he does. He buys, sells, repairs, restores pinball. And so he is not a new in box. Dealer, like he's not a licensed dealer for Stern or Spooky or any of the big pinball houses, Jersey Jacks. But what he does is, you know, he finds people selling pinball machines that either they want to they're looking to trade and they're looking to, like, get out of one machine and move into another one. And so he can buy from them, you know, buy a little low, take it home, love it up and sell a little high. So then does service. And he was this guy, Vince. His name is Vince, of course. And, you know, it's great New Jersey thing. And so I went over with G money to Vince's little warehouse and he had a Deadpool premium. So Deadpool, a very well regarded Stern, modern Stern from 2018, and the premium is the sort of minimum. Mid tier. There are three trim levels is the middle trim level. And G money stepped up to this. And he doesn't really know anything about Deadpool. Obviously, he does not watch the Deadpool movies and has never read the Deadpool comics. And he forking loved this game. He was just super into it. And so what I have is this. This is the choice before me to enter. I could. Buy from Vince the Deadpool premium at a very fair price. I don't think we need to mention dollar figures here. No, no. You know, but a fair price. And he lives two miles away from me. I can load this thing into the back of my Honda Odyssey and have it here and be playing pinball by two o'clock on Saturday afternoon. And Vince told me if I play, if I pay cash, I can get. Quote, the nice price. Oh, if you pay cash. I'm sure. Yeah. Seems like it seems like a, you know, the nice operation. Sure. So the other machine that I really wanted was Godzilla and Godzilla is incredibly. It's the top selling machine right now. It has been for a few years running is regarded as the best modern machine. If you go to the pin size. Uh, pin side pinball database where they rank pinball machines, right? Both of these are top 20 all time. Okay. So Deadpool's like 13 or 18, I think, and Godzilla's number one right now. Uh, but I can't find any near me. So there are, if you have to ship a used machine from someplace, it's very expensive. And so you, you know, it's really, if you're buying a used one, if you're buying a used machine, it has to be local enough to you that you can like drive there within an hour or two, pick it up and bring it home. Uh, you can buy it new in the box from a dealer who will ship it for free, but you're then paying new in the box money for it, which is, I don't want to get caught up in it.
Mike00:18:46It's a little bit more than the nice price.
JVL00:18:49Not so much more that it should make a material difference, right? It's a, this is a, I don't, I'm not gonna get hung up on this. This isn't really about dollars and cents. It's a little bit about dollars and cents, but the other thing is that Vince said to me, he said, uh, you know, like eventually I'll come across, uh, a Godzilla and like, you know, when I do, I'll just grab it for you. And like, you can trade the Deadpool and do the Godzilla with me. I was like, Oh, Oh, double switch. So two for the two for the price of one, usually pay double for that kind of action. Um, I, I, I genuinely don't know what to do. So Godzilla is the better game, right? Okay. Uh, it is certainly the more interesting game. Uh, G money does not love the theme as much as he loves Deadpool. Like, you know, the devil, he was just like, whoa, this is great. And Godzilla will be a little bit harder for him to get into than Deadpool's a little bit of a wider open game. Um, on the other hand, Godzilla. Ability to mod, which you guys will recall is one of the things I really want to get into. Like I want to get into like becoming a mom and because Godzilla is so popular, the, the universe of things that you can do to this machine, like little mods that people have created on their own is enormous and essentially infinite Deadpool because it's seven years old and is no longer in production and was there. It was a popular game, but was not as popular as Godzilla is like, you know, Superman. The universe of mods for it are more limited, not non-existent. There are a lot of mods, but they're more limited. And so I'm going back and forth. What do I do? Because the other thing is also if I buy the Deadpool machine from Vince, I've now established a relationship with Vince and you have a relationship with the pinball guy in your immediate area who can, you know, be on the lookout. And you could say, you know, this, he's a guy who will go to the pinball expos and shows. And so, you know, I could tell Vince, hey, if you see a Godzilla premium there for just buy it and I'll take it off your hands. Yeah, I genuinely don't know what to do. And I bring it to you boys to help me make this decision right here, live on the air, because I'm doing one of these two things tomorrow.
Mike00:21:20I feel like we need the ESPN LeBron, the decision music, you know, to play play at this point.
JVL00:21:26So I sent you guys each 90 second trailer videos from the manufacturer.
Sonny00:21:31We did not. We did not watch them.
Mike00:21:34I just watched them while you just watched them. Yes. While you were talking. All right. Well, but go ahead, Sonny. You can you can watch it. We can. I'm watching it now. All right. Go ahead. Well, then I guess I will. I will. I will speak while you watch. So, first of all, I don't know if the trailer. Which were very cool in the both the machines look great, really give should have much bearing on this decision because, like, they both look cool. They both look great. Like in like at that point, like, what what are we talking about? It's more like, OK, what what do you really which one do you like more? I think I like this idea, however, that you have a pinball guy in your backyard. You have a guy that you can build a. Relationship with and your pin, your your Deadpool pinball machine like that, he has like ready for you to pick up this weekend like that's an investment. That's an investment in Godzilla in the future, or I don't know, maybe some kind of machine you've never never even know about yet.
JVL00:22:50I've been told that it's possible that my favorite pinball machine of all time, Twilight Zone, might be getting a remake. Like a modernized version of which I mean, so I think I think the I think if I were to pick one, all else being equal, right?
Mike00:23:11Like, you know, we're just doing the experiment here. The Godzilla one is the pick, right? Like, it's not just that it's the number one and it has all the mods like I like two machines were sitting in front of me. Correct. I would. Yeah, I would pick the Godzilla. I really like. I liked the little the building that like which collapses, collapses. If you hit the building of time, the entire thing falls into the play floor. That was cool. That was pretty cool. And I just think it's got a longevity that yes, G money may not appreciate it now, but he's young, you know, there's, there's room to grow. So on the other hand, it does feel like you, you're not just buying a machine, you're buying a relationship and a, and a, and something long-term here. So that's, that's my view.
JVL00:24:02Okay. And before I go to Sonny, uh, I would say that again, the economics of these things are such that, uh, you take a depreciation hit when you buy a pinball machine, but it's reasonably. So I'm, they basically hold their value, you know, you, their transaction costs, right? Anytime you go to trade or sell a pinball machine. You're losing like, you know, 4% just in triples. You gotta list it. You gotta, you know, you lose a little bit of money, but once you put however much money it is into a machine, like that money is just sort of there for you to roll into the next machine. It's a little bit like real estate in that way, except don't count on appreciation. So, right.
?00:24:48Yeah.
JVL00:24:48Okay.
Sonny00:24:49Sonny thoughts. You gotta get the Deadpool. You gotta, you gotta get the Deadpool. I like just watching these trailers. First off, uh, I, I, you can't, Mike's right. You can't judge the gameplay based on the trailers. I like that. That's, that's useless. What I'm basing this on is that it looks exactly like, uh, X-Men comics from like 1990 to about 1998. There's like my key era. It's like, it looks, it looks like X-Men, the animated series era X-Men Wolverine is in there.
Mike00:25:20Right. I saw, I definitely saw it.
Sonny00:25:21Well, it's like brown and it's like brown uniform Wolverine. It's like, you know? Or brown costume Wolverine. It's, uh, that that's no, that, that's my, that's like my era of, uh, uh, I was never an X-Men guy. Like I never read X-Men books, but I did, I didn't enjoy the cartoon. I read, I picked up the occasional issue. Uh, so that, that would be my pick just based on that alone. Also, I mean, there's all the like relationship with the guy stuff that, that matters as well. Um, and if you don't want to buy it new, if you, if you're, if you are a, you know, the economics are what they are, like, it seems to make more sense to buy it used, you buy it used, and then you trade in for the Godzilla.
JVL00:26:01If that ever comes around or the twilight zone assumes it will, because again, there are so many of the Godzilla machines in existence that they will come around.
Sonny00:26:10So you got, you just go, you drive over to Vinnie's house and you pick up, uh, pick up, pick up Deadpool for the nice price. And then you, you, you, in a few years, you trade it in, in a few years, in a few years, you just buy it. You just buy the, the Godzilla and you put it right next to it. You got to.
JVL00:26:26I think we just raised, I mean, we just made this decision right here, right? I, I mean, I think we do. I, I will say one thing that every single person has told me when I've spoken with them about this and said, you know, yeah, you know, in a couple of years, like I'll flip this and replace it with another one. Every single person I've spoken to about this says, no, you won't. You'll just get a second one. Just keep it. Yeah. Because the rule of thumb for pinball machines seems to be like the rule of thumb for watches. Nobody owns one watch. Yeah. And nobody owns one pinball machine. That does not surprise me.
Sonny00:27:03Well, that all sounds about right.
Mike00:27:05I said, I sent you that, uh, that, that you did. Yeah. That was very nice. They had the Iron Maiden. That's cool.
JVL00:27:11So I think that by the time we are taping next, I will have it in my office behind me because I think I'm going to put it right behind me. So you're going to have it.
Sonny00:27:21You're going to have a light up for, uh, for people to see while you're, while you're doing your podcast.
JVL00:27:25I think that would be. Badass, don't you? No.
Sonny00:27:29I don't know about bad. I don't know if badass is the word I would use, but it would be, it would be an, it'd be, it would be a unique piece of decoration for a video.
JVL00:27:37I have the Cobra Rattler of our stripe, the space battleship, Yamato and Deadpool pinball. What else says serious analyst of public affairs than that?
Sonny00:27:50You should put the space battleship Yamato on top of like the, the console, you know, the top. Portion where the scoreboard and everything is, just have it all. Just combine it into one.
JVL00:28:00So I, uh, I saw while I was at Vince's place, he had a game called, uh, the black night, which is a fairly legendary pinball game. This is the remake of the black night, and this is a pinball. This is the pinball version of negging where it is an, it is designed to not be accessible at all, to be an. Incredibly challenging machine. The idea is that you are, the black night is the machine and you are playing against him. Okay. And he keeps fucking taunting you. Like when you miss, like, because all the sensors, like he knows where you missed. He's like, what are you doing? God, you're so stupid. Jeez. Oh, go ahead. Try to hit the left ramp. You have 10 seconds to get the bonus. Nine, eight, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up. It's amazing. Not for me, not the kind of game, I would take a sledgehammer to it, but just as an idea for a game and you can picture the comic book guy, like just sort of next to it. And you have bested me for the last time, black night for left for the last time, Mr.
Mike00:29:16Knight.
JVL00:29:19So that's my journey. There we go. We're doing this thing. We're doing it.
Sonny00:29:23Was this in the Deadpool? I think I have to get the dad.
JVL00:29:25I think that's the I've already picked out. I honestly so sitting in another tab from this window, I have pin life, which is one of the mod super shops. I already have like my basket filled with the first group of things that I'm getting and I can't wait for them to be delivered. And I'm going to read them because it's the nice price. I'm not like paying taxes on it or anything. Obviously, there's no sales tax in the nice price.
Sonny00:29:54Nobody pays. Nobody pays. It's a sales tax for the sales tax.
Mike00:29:57Sales tax is for jumps.
Sonny00:29:59So I'm just taxes included. It's included. It's because obviously Vinnie pays the sales sales tax, right? Yeah, it's included in the nice price.
?00:30:08All right.
Sonny00:30:09Great.
Mike00:30:10Yeah, there we go. Posted JVL. It sounds like you already know what you're doing, so I can't wait to see it. Shall we move on to the box office? I just have to say I pulled up our old friend box. Office Mojo to look up the box office for this past weekend. I don't know, since I've been doing this podcast, if I've seen a worse box office number one number than this past weekend. Ten, just under $11 million. The number one movie made just under $11 million.
Sonny00:30:48Yeah, but half the country was like was was indoors.
Mike00:30:55Totally. So I'm assuming like this is this is this is snowstorm related, right?
Sonny00:31:00But it's definitely it's definitely snowstorm related. I mean, it's snowstorm related. It's also just like the the it's the doldrums of January. This is this is a thing. January, February, often quite slow, unless you have unless you have like a beekeeper or something that like really hits with audiences. And they're like, yeah, I want to see that. But nobody was clamoring to see the Chris Pratt. I AI judge movie.
JVL00:31:27This is the trail.
Sonny00:31:29I actually want to watch Mercy because I like I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm fascinated by the high concept January movies. I'm a big fan. But now I was I confused.
Mike00:31:40Was this movie made with any AI or is it just part of the plot of the movie?
Sonny00:31:49Well, that's I don't know. I don't strictly speaking know the answer to that. I would say that the executive producers, this guy. I team are from got tough or something. Some some Russian name who made wanted. He's made some other things. And he is like he's definitely a guy who's like AI is a tool and we will use it in making motion pictures and it'll be fine. So there could very well.
Mike00:32:11So maybe I don't know if I had like misheard or, you know, was only half listening and had heard something that this was a movie that was made with AI. And then I looked it up further and I was like, oh, no, it's about an AI.
Sonny00:32:24So, no, it's about an AI. It's about the there's an if you're accused of a crime, if you're accused of a capital crime, you get taken to AI jail and they strap you to a chair and the AI gives you 20 gives you gives you an hour to prove your innocence. You get access to all the panopticon and you can prove your innocence. If you can't do it, the AI chair kills you. That's my understanding.
Mike00:32:48All right. I can't believe people weren't clamoring to see that movie.
Sonny00:32:52People not not too excited. No. No. Big takeaways. Big takeaways from box office are twofold. One, I think it's pretty much a done deal at this point that Zootopia 2 is going to outgross Avatar Fire and Ash. At least it already has probably domestically and overseas. Wow. Which is a which is a big, big upset wind for the Walt Disney. The Walt Disney Studios portion of the Walt Disney Empire. It's all it's all Disney. Yeah, it's it's all Disney. It's all Disney in the end. But but that. That's big. And the other one is that Marty Supreme is now the highest grossing A24 film, at least domestically of all time. It's it's up over 86 million. It's going to it's going to I think it'll play for a little while because it's going to get. So what is this movie? It's got a bunch of Oscar nominations. So.
JVL00:33:42Marty Supreme. What is Marty Supreme about?
Sonny00:33:45Marty Supreme is you remember Uncut Gems, JBL?
JVL00:33:49Yeah.
Sonny00:33:49So it's by the Safdie brothers. It's by it's by Josh Safdie. Not the not the Safdie brothers. It's by it's. But it's basically it's it's kind of like Uncut Gems, except instead of Adam Sandler playing a gambling diamond merchant, it's Timothy Chalamet playing a dirtbag ping pong enthusiast. And he's a hustler. Yeah, he's like a ping pong hustler, kind of also a competitor, like a competitor. I mean, like the the plot of the movie is literally just he wants to go and compete in the world championship. Like that's that's the plot of the movie.
JVL00:34:27And there's but it's based on the end.
Mike00:34:30No, no, but it's based loosely off of a real person, right?
Sonny00:34:35It's a different kind of off a real person. Yeah, I mean, it is based. It's based on a real guy like they didn't. There's some there's some controversy there because Josh Safdie does not like acknowledge this person in any way. And like, but it's definitely based on a guy.
JVL00:34:52What's that? Because he didn't pay for the life rights.
Sonny00:34:54Oh, yeah, he didn't. He didn't pay for the rights. He didn't. You know, he like there there's a there is there's an interesting kind of Josh anti anti Josh Safdie anti Marty Supreme Oscar whisper campaign going on right now. Like the first the first story in the like the first front page of the California Post was like Safdie brothers split up after Josh Safdie allowed underage girl to be abused sexually on set. Like it was like, oh, that's a that's a and then I got like weirdly as I. You know, I'm on a bunch of different email lists. I got emailed as as from from some mass email that was like the real life. Marty Mouser's pissed off about this. And Josh Safdie didn't didn't contact them at all. And, you know, so like there's there's definitely a little Weinstein Oscar thing happening. The question is, who is who is running the anti Safdie campaign? The funniest possible answer is Benny Safdie, who, of course, had the smashing machine. And is is supposedly pretty upset that his brother's movies a million times more successful than the smashing machine.
Mike00:36:01I've heard bad things about the smashing machine, by the way.
Sonny00:36:04It's not very good.
Mike00:36:05Yeah, I've heard it's OK.
Sonny00:36:06Like, it's kind of interesting, but it's but it's not very good.
Mike00:36:10That's a problem. Why did the brothers break up or are they not broken up? They're just making movies separately like the Coen's.
Sonny00:36:17Well, so this was so this is in the the the argument in this California Post story that was written by Tatiana Siegel, which is. Like, oh, it's all old news. Like, none of this, none of the stuff that was in that is really new, is that Benny Safdie did not know that this underaged girl on set that he was on set for, by the way, he he the argument is he did not know she was underage. Josh Safdie should have known, but it was all put together by a third producer who they've they worked again with on Uncut Gems. Like, it's it's this whole ridiculous thing. It's not. It's not that interesting. But the argument there is that that's what caused their split is is this relationship with this third producer.
Mike00:37:02OK, I'm exhausted already.
Sonny00:37:05It's not that interesting.
Mike00:37:06OK, any other box office thoughts, though? I mean, we're just in the doldrums, right? This is this is just a bad time for movies.
Sonny00:37:13Well, I mean, the number the number eight movie of the the number eight movie of the weekend is Lord of the Rings. The Fellowship of the Ring. Well, what we're doing. Wow. Yeah. So this week. And the number two million dollars.
Mike00:37:26Number 10 was Return of the King. And number 11 was Two Towers. I mean, that's people love people love these movies.
JVL00:37:31As far as I can tell, those movies played once each day.
Sonny00:37:39Yeah, there were not a ton of screenings. Yeah.
JVL00:37:41So they were. I mean, it's astonishing that they were able to break into the top 10 with the number of showings they were able to do. I mean, yeah, yeah, it's it's something.
Mike00:37:52All right. Well, why don't we why don't we? Why don't we talk about it? Why don't we? Why don't we get into the the reason we're we're doing the show here and talk about the Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring, which it and its sequels are in theaters because this is the 25th anniversary of the release of the Peter Jackson films. Sonny, do you need to give us a big boy review of this of this movie? You better.
Sonny00:38:20Lord of the Rings. Yes. Fellowship of the Ring directed by Peter. Peter Jackson starring Elijah Wood and Ian McKellen and a whole bunch of folks. Orlando Bloom. What's his name from Indiana Jones? There's a there's all these things. There's all there's all sorts of people in this movie. So Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring is. So I don't know which version you guys watch. I watched the extended edition because that is, of course, that that movie is a million hours long. The extended edition of this movie. Is is very long. I was very tired by the end of by the end of it. But the the thing that really again, you know, I watch these movies every couple of years. I do not watch them like religiously like some folks, but I probably watch them every three or four years. And what always jumps out at me about this first one is the great opening introduction of the like. It is just this. It is this remarkably efficient. Piece of lore building world building that sets the stage for everything to come. That sets the stakes.
JVL00:39:30One of the great voiceovers in modern history.
Sonny00:39:33It has it has this great voiceover by Cate Blanchett. But also it it it sets the it sets the visual tone of the whole series. It's a very weak like compare. It's a very weird sequence. It just it's a very weird looking sequence. Just if you look at how it is edited together. And the month, the way the montage is done with the kind of overlapping images and the very kind of gothic silent movie, almost shots of like the the the men elves and the dwarves and the dwarves. And like it is, it's just a very weird looking movie and very weird looking sequence. And the thing I thought while watching it this time was like, you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of the sequence in the Sam Raimi Spider-Man film. Where he is designing his costume. You go back and you watch that sequence. And that sequence is itself like almost like it's almost it's almost a I would describe it as a ripoff, except it's still Sam Raimi. That sequence is almost exactly the same one that he did in Army of Darkness, where they were like building the castle defenses. We don't have to get into all that. But like you have this moment in time. You have this moment in 2001, 2002. These two movies come out within six months of each other. Where you have these two, like, I say this, I say this, I mean this complimentarily. You have these two weirdo outsider horror directors who are given enormous sums of money. And like the richest genre nerd texts to work with. And they make something that is super that is like both that is both that appeals to the masses, but is also very specifically of their. Style and form and whatever, and it it's if you you will, we do not with nothing like this happens again, like all my it's it's crazy to me that people did not look at the success of Lord of the Rings and the Spider-Man movies and go like, you know what we need, we need to do this more. Instead, you get the occasional effort like that, right? Like, I think you could credit Christopher Nolan's Batman movies to having their own, you know, kind of specific style, but like what ends up happening is the Marvel style. Marvel style takes over and that kind of dominates everything in the years to come.
Mike00:42:01Anyway, isn't the isn't what you just described, though, like it basically was the studios like getting wise to that, but being like, but but we'll we'll do it like we'll be the we'll be the decide like they I think they wanted to do that, but they like wanted they wanted control, right?
Sonny00:42:20The closest you get to it, the closest you get to it is the two Zack Snyder. Superman movies. So Zack Snyder, Superman, Man of Steel and Batman versus Superman, Dawn of Justice, right? Like those are the two closest movies that you get to, like giving somebody an outrageous sum of money and letting him, you know, more or less use his own style. And we all know how that turned out. Anyway, Fellowship of the Ring is is a is I still think it's the best of these three movies, certainly the best of the three. Lord of the Rings movies. And I make this argument all the time. I made it last week. It's the best of these movies because it's the smallest in scale. It is the one where you have the closest connection with everybody. There isn't there isn't a proper action sequence in this, like a real action sequence in this movie until 90 minutes into it. Maybe maybe even further, like the the the actually. I want to say it's even further in the extended edition. I'll put it this way in the extended edition. It's not till like two hours in where they where they where they get where they get to the cave, like where they get to the mines of Moria. And like that is the first real proper action sequence of the movie. And like it's it's amazing to think about. Like and there are there are there are other like kind of small sequences, you know, the chase of the the the chase of the ring race, you know, through off of the castle top into the. What's it? Weather top. Thunder top. Weather off of Thunder top and into weather top weather top weather top. Thank you. Weather top off of weather top and into Rivendell. But like the first real proper big action sequence of everybody versus the orcs and, you know, the Balrog and all that is like two hours into the movie. It's it's it takes it takes a while to get there. You have to you have to have a little bit of patience, but it doesn't feel it. It never feels slow. It feels perfectly paced. Everything is everything is moving along nicely. You are there is so much intricate world building that doesn't feel like world building. That doesn't feel like you are just kind of padding it along and, you know, kind of being like, oh, look at this. Oh, look at the look at this alphabet. You know, it just it just all works. And that's and that is, again, it's at least in part because of that big opening sequence, which, again, it has like there's a big battle at the top. And, you know, that. You could say, oh, that that's actually the first big action sequence, whatever. I don't know, man. The the the. You know, I will say I will say some of the effects over the last twenty five years have not aged terribly well, but the stuff that doesn't look great is stuff I didn't think looked great at the time. Like there is a couple of sequences in the minds of Moria, particularly where they're running down the stairs that I always thought like looked weirdly chintzy and wrong. Like it just it just didn't. It reminded me of the movie Spawn. Remember the movie Spawn? Oh, there's there's there's a sequence in Spawn where they go to hell and like part of part of that sequence in the in the minds of Moria reminded me of that. But like on the whole, on the whole, the thing holds up really, really well, just like shockingly well in terms of what they did and how the effects look and how the digital effects in particular look. I don't you know, I don't know how they did it, but they what they did was pretty amazing. I don't I like I don't have much else to say about the movie. I like it's so it's just it it feels more alive and more real and more material than almost any big epic film that we get today, which is I like I don't I am not I'm not a real like we have regressed sort of guy when it comes to a lot of but you watch something this you can't help but feel like, OK, thank you. Things actually were when I was 19, things were better. Turns out it's not just because I was 19. Things were actually better than the filmmaking was actually better. And it has slowly, steadily gotten worse since. And we need to return. So that's my that's my big take on Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring.
JVL00:46:44Thank you, Sonny. JVL. So fellowships, I did not watch the extended edition because I do not like the extended editions and that's not true. It's not that I don't like. I prefer the theatrical additions to all three. Fellowship is a perfect movie. There is there is nothing in it that is out of place. There is there are no false notes. There's there's literally nothing and not a frame in it that I would change. And I would argue that this is it. It is an un. Well, I don't even know how to. You could not reproduce. This thing, because what happened was first, it begins as a triumph of screenplay, a screenwriting. And one of the things Peter Jackson did was he was like, look, I can condense twelve hundred pages into seven hours, seven and a half hours. Let me show you how. And this I am in the process of listening to the audio book version of Fellowship with G Money right now. And so, like, I was listening to this. While we just watched the movie together and it is the way he compresses time. I mean, it's the best adaptation I've ever seen of anything as a, for instance, the Weathertop scene. So Frodo is stabbed by the Morgul blade on at Weathertop. And in the movie, he goes into this sort of coma. And they're desperately trying to get him off of Weathertop. And then Arwen shows up and he's, you know, do you, do you have the Aethyllus weed, King's foil? Yeah, and I get it. And then Arwen shows up and she's like, I can, you know, he's not going to last. You know, we're going to, we've got to get him to, to my father's house. And you're not sure exactly how long this all is, right? Is this happening in a matter of hours? Is it happening over a day? Yeah, a couple of days. Yeah. In the book, it's like two weeks. Yes. So it is, it is like two weeks. They set off from Weathertop. They like, they, they walk for 10 days. Frodo can't move his arm. The wound is totally healed, but he doesn't feel good. And he has to ride on the pony and then he's getting worse and slipping away. And they managed to skip all of that stuff. They were like, we don't need this, but we know what we need to delete. We know what the beat. And we know that in the beat, it has to feel more urgent than it feels in the book, but also we can't make it feel like it happens over the course of an hour. And the way they structure that by having it be dark, dark, dark, when Arwen shows up, it's dark, dark, dark, but then your late afternoon son, when she gets into that amazing horse chase, which is just an unbelievable sequence, makes you feel like you're in a Okay, I don't know exactly how long this was, but it's like a day at least, right? It's like a couple of days. I mean, you know, they've been just riding like the wind without stopping. And that's fascinating. The fact that this movie was made by taking a bunch of people who committed to living in New Zealand for two years, because it was two years that they took to shoot all this stuff, I think it would be very hard to get a cast to do that. Like, now, like, hey, do you commit to going to the middle of nowhere for two years and having basically no contact with the outside world? I don't know if you guys might. You wouldn't remember this, Sonny. You might like you would get every six months. Ain't it cool news would like Peter Jackson would send them a couple pictures from the set in New Zealand. Like, that's, you know, we were all following from heaven. Yeah, we were. And we like, you know, we were like, holy shit, you know, we. We know they're shooting this thing. He's doing it look like he's doing it. Yeah. And a bunch of not unknown actors. Exactly. But not, you know, some of them are unknown. Like, you know, Orlando Bloom is totally unknown. He's just like an extreme sports guy there. Liv Tyler. Everybody knows who she is. But she was an Armageddon. She was an Armageddon. But, you know, she's just like the girl from the video with Alicia Silverstone. Yeah. Viggo Mortensen had been around because he's an actor. G.I.J. Nobody made him a leading man, you know, and it just everything is perfect in it. There are no false notes. But this is Star Wars comes out and it's this huge sensation and it spawns a hundred different types of Star Wars movies. We never get a fantasy genre coming out of the success of this. And I think it's because people. Intuited that no one could reproduce what made this this thing special, right? I mean, it begins with the source material, which is great, but which requires like a one in a million adaptation of. And then it requires all the stars to line up. And if you try to make a bunch of like Dungeons and Dragons type fantasy movies and it doesn't hit perfectly like this. I mean, good luck.
Sonny00:52:24There there was definitely there were a few kind of efforts, but they were all very half hearted and aborted, right? Like there was the last witch hunter, right? Right. The Vin Diesel movie. There was there were a couple of like Vin Diesel and Nick Cage movies in this in this space.
Mike00:52:43But you don't get any kids movies like there was the Aragon, right? The which was like about a dragon. Yeah. A few years later. But it was it was more geared. You're toward children or toward.
Sonny00:52:55Yeah. And you don't you don't get you don't get anything that is even close to it until Game of Thrones. Yeah. And even Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones isn't even doing the same thing. Really. It's doing it's doing something.
Mike00:53:08It's kind of anti it's anti Tolkien in a lot of ways.
Sonny00:53:10Yeah. But it's not even it's not even that it's anti Tolkien, right?
Mike00:53:13It's that it's I mean, George RR Martin says it is basically.
Sonny00:53:15No, no, I know. But it's but that's not what I mean. I mean, like, that's not that's not a series about dwarfs and elves. Right. You know, hobbits and and men and wizards. Right. It's like you have you have just a bunch of people fighting and there happens to be somebody who has dragons. And like that is that's kind of, you know, it's War of the Roses and it's more of a soap
Mike00:53:38opera.
Sonny00:53:39Yes.
JVL00:53:40Yeah. Yeah. I will just say this one one aside before we go to you, Michael. Nothing makes me feel death creeping up behind us, like seeing. This movie and then later in the afternoon, seeing a Royal Caribbean ad with middle aged Orlando Bloom.
Sonny00:54:03Oh, I saw that ad to during the football games.
JVL00:54:06Oh, because, you know, his skin and I mean, he he literally he looks like he's just out of high school, which I think he basically was things like 20 in this movie. And now he looks like every middle aged dad you see it at your stage. Your kid's basketball game.
Sonny00:54:25Yeah.
JVL00:54:26Wow.
?00:54:27Yeah.
JVL00:54:28Time is slowly turning us all into monsters. He's 49 years old.
Sonny00:54:33Yeah.
JVL00:54:34Yikes. Michael, talk. Go. Just go. Let it all out.
Mike00:54:40Splooge all over this garbage movie. Totally over. Where the fuck was Tom Bombadil?
JVL00:54:48That's what I want to know.
Mike00:54:50OK, no, not not really. I mean, what can I? Say? I love this movie. I love the source material deeply. And I agree with you, JVL, that like. Almost impossible to adapt. And in fact, like the attempts to adapt it, you know, from abortive attempts. There's a famous there was a famously treatment of this that that was completed when Tolkien was still alive, actually. And it's known as the Zimmerman script. Oh, Zimmerman, like sent it to Tolkien. It's like the 60s. And the letter that Tolkien wrote back, not to Zimmerman, but to the person who sent, you know, it's like the go between is it's pretty epic just in terms of like he doesn't. Basically, it's like he doesn't understand it at all. And like nothing about this makes any sense. But of course, like that's what an author is going to say. But, you know, there was there were the the there was the. Actually, adaptation of it and the and the other one, right? The animated one, right? Right. The rotos. Yeah, the rotoscope. Yeah, I remember that from my childhood in which at one point, I think the actor playing Aragorn, like at one point, like trips over his own sword and they just like keep it in and they like rotoscoped over it. And that's like a moment where they're like running and like he like trips and then he just keeps going. It's like, oh, they just they just get anyway. I think it works for all the reasons you you said JVL, the things that he chooses Jackson chooses to leave out or compress or whatever, you know, or are brilliant. You can tell he loves the source material, which is like a which is a prerequisite for getting it right. It doesn't mean that if you love it, you will get it right. It just means you have to love it in order to. Set yourself up for success. And I think, you know, Jackson's love of the Beatles is why his get back documentary is also, I think, terrific. It's because he loves the source material and and maybe loves it too much. And that's why it's a little bloated, but it's like still works great. And it would not have worked if he didn't. I was telling Sonny before we started recording just the. The 25 years element. Of this, the 25 year anniversary of it brought me back in ways that like we've done other anniversary, you know, viewings of movies that I saw when I came out something about this kind of hit. And maybe it was because I was almost 14 years old when this movie first came out. But I remember the feeling, the excitement, the like, I remember, I remember when my mom, like a year before this movie came out, like told me it was coming out and she was like, let's do this. Letting me in on this like secret. I was like, I was like, oh, well, I know what that is. I've, I've tried to read the books and all this stuff. And it was like, she's like, you're, she just knew like this was going to be something that I would, I would love. I remember seeing it. I remember being in the theater and jumping when Bilbo does the, you know, lunges at the ring, you know, and is, and they do that quick little boy.
JVL00:58:18Yes.
Mike00:58:20Like, I remember being spooked by that. I remember being like, and not knowing like who Peter Jackson was and that he like, that, that was like his own kind of hat tip to his own, you know, previous, you know, horror genre career. And so like all of those memories came flowing, flooding back as I was watching this again. I've seen it obviously since, but just thinking about that time and thinking about what it was like and the experience and just the feeling that they freaking nailed it. The time that I saw it and then having that feeling again and, and knowing, knowing a little more about how movies are made and how things, how so many things go wrong. And it didn't, um, I agree with you, Sonny, about the, some of the effects. I think some of the, um, the blue green screen stuff, particularly in the extended edition scenes, like it doesn't look great. And maybe, you know, there there's basically the, the one that I always hated, um, and I still hate it is the, uh, is, is the extended version of Isildur where he like puts the ring on and like, and, and, and, and then jumps in the river and then it falls off. Like something about that whole sequence just doesn't look right to me, but setting that aside, the effects, like the way that they make the hobbits look short, it seems so like obvious now, but it's, it's brilliant. It's so brilliant.
Sonny00:59:51Well, it's, it's really interesting too, because they do. There's two different tricks that he's using kind of constantly, right?
JVL00:59:57It's forced perspective mostly, isn't it?
Sonny00:59:59There's, it's most, it's a, there's a lot of force. Yes. There's a lot of force perspective. There are some shots that are composites where he's, he's shot, he's shot, uh, Gandalf much larger and then the, the hobbits much shorter and then kind of put them. But then in the, in the 4k, you can tell, you can see some of these shots, particularly the shots that are at a distance. It's clearly just dressed up kids. Yes. Who are like walking alongside Ian McKellen. Like, it's like, it's just like, it's like, oh, that's, those are, that's one of the shots where they're, they're either using midgets or children. It's one of the two. It's like, they're, they're just, well, okay. Little, little people, dwarves. Um, but I don't want to, not dwarves. I don't want to confuse people by saying, uh, but the, uh, but the, but it's, it's so funny watching. It's so funny watching it in, in UHD. Cause you're just like, oh yeah, that's those, that's not the actors. That's definitely, but like,
Mike01:00:53The, the, the, the force perspective stuff, particularly in, in, um, in bag end. Um, you know, now that I know how they did it, it does not take away. And in fact, enhances my appreciation of it, which is, you know, I mean, the, the, you know, there's scenes where you've got like Gandalf sitting kind of in the foreground.
Sonny01:01:15And, and Jackson has the camera like right up in his face, right up and angled down. So you can, so it like, you get the roof in the, in. In the ceiling in it every time. Like, and he's like kind of hunched over to make it correct. It's a great bit of physical acting too, by McKellen.
Mike01:01:31It's like, it's, it's all like, it's everybody is operating. And I think part of it is this idea that like, we're going to be here for two years and we are making something great. And this is going to be something that will last outlast all of us. Everybody seems to have had that attitude as they were, as they were making it. And, and also a little bit of an, uh, Um, particularly like the, on the, the filmmaker, the crew side, right? Like they're all Kiwis. They're all like, nobody even cares about us or knows who we are, knows where we are in the world. We're in this little corner. We're going to kind of prove ourselves. Just all of that comes through and makes it it's so it feels scrappy, but they also just love this, um, this material and, and, and love what they were doing. And so everybody's just operating on, on, um, uh, on all cylinders. I, I love. The score. And I know that's cliche, but it makes this movie so good. It, it, uh, and I, I think I said last week, right? I listened to it. It's Howard Shore. Yes. Yeah. We're like Howard Shore, like steps up and becomes, you know, I mean, this is the guy who was, uh, uh, who was the first musical director on Saturday night live, you know, like he was like, he had this sort of whole different career he could have had. And like, it's like the next thing that I'm aware of for him is that he's, you know, created the Lord of the Rings, uh, score. It's, it is so powerful. And I've said this last week, but that moment when they, when they kind of walk through the cleft and the rocks and the, and the score, the fellowship theme hits that crescendo. It's like, Oh, I love it. One thing I really appreciated. And then I'll shut up and we can move on is, uh, the final 45, 40 minutes of this movie. Um, the high that I felt leaving. The theater, like I felt it again. Um, it, it really, it really sticks the landing for the ending. Everything is working. I mean, because I will say, and I, you know, I appreciate when they go into, um, when they go into Galatia to, um, Lothlorien, uh, Kara's Galifon and all that stuff. But it definitely is like a, it's a nice pause and a nice, like slow down of the, of the really propulsive for not having like a big action sequence until, until they're in Moria.
JVL01:03:57I like Lothlorien for other reasons.
Mike01:04:00Well, of course you do. Uh, but Lothlorien like slows down. Like you've just had this like almost climactic battle with the Balrog and everybody's sad because Gandalf is dead. And then it's like, pause it. It's like this nice pause until you go into this final sequence where like now the Uruk-hai are coming, you know, now it's like, it gets, it gets, it's getting serious. They're not just on this little journey together. Like. Like things are moving and just everything from Boromir's kind of growing impatience. Is he just getting impatient or is the ring taking hold of him? Like all of that, he plays, Sean Bees plays so well in his facial, like I had to rewind.
JVL01:04:43So well earned both, both 100% that he makes. And the turns are really condensed time-wise. Like he, they, they turn him to. Like heel, they've hinted at it, you know, along the way, but then backed off of that. That turn feels perfectly earned. And then his redemption is also perfectly earned.
Mike01:05:04It could have, it could have, they could have whiffed on it and they, and they don't. And, and just the whole sequence where he, his, his, his redemption and then his acceptance of Aragorn. Oh, it's, it is so touching. My captain, my king. Oh, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's terrific. And then just the, the Frodo, Sam relationship, which is, we got to talk about that. Okay. Because, well, okay. Let me just say my, my piece about this for the, for the end, because I would say the, the movie, I I'm surprised because I've got so much of the book in my head and I read it all the time and I understand the story. It's like the film doesn't give us a ton of time with Sam and Frodo. Uh, until the end. Um, there's a lot, I mean, they, they do things together, obviously they're, they start off the journey together, but like you don't get a sense of their personal relationship and friendship deepening until the end. And that moment when he dives out into the river, um, it's very, you know, it has that very funny moment, right? Where he's like, I'm go, I'm going to Mordor alone. He says, of course you are, sir. And I'm coming with you. Like there's, it's funny, but there's so it conveys. So much of what this relationship is and is going to be and is going to deepen. And then that moment where they're in the M and will, and he, you know, and he says like, I'm glad you're with me, Sam. It's just like, talk about like ending this movie on such a high and a wonderful note. I, I, I could go on for like two hours and I'm not going to, I just love this movie.
JVL01:06:48So what I wanted to talk to you guys about is the Frodo and Sam relationship. Is the key emotional relationship in the movie. Yes. And I was always a little surprised that the movie worked for American audiences because that is an, that is a British relationship for which there is no American analog because they're sort of friends, but also Sam is sort of the help.
Mike01:07:15Right. Because Frodo is a, is a, is gentry.
JVL01:07:18Frodo is gentry and Sam is a servant class and, uh. There's also kind of like British public school boy gay stuff to it. No, it's not, it's not subtext. It's not even text, but that's sort of like young men who are deeply in love with one another feels like it's out of Brideshead Revisited. Yes. You might as well be with Charles and Sebastian. And that is something that again, American audiences. Don't have an analog for like, you know, guys who are straight, who are actually like deeply and romantically in love with one another. So young men, they're just bros, they're bros. They are not just bros. No, they're the American version of that relationship. They are bros, Frodo and Sam are not bros.
Mike01:08:14Can I, can I, can I offer this, which is the, the relationship is actually based on the relationship between the, um, between an officer and a Batman in, uh, in world war one, um, which was a common in the British and the British, uh, uh, you know, army during world war one. You know, it still has this very old 19th century, you know, idea of the officers are all, um, you know, college educated and, uh, and, and at some, some level of gentry, uh, or, or nobility and the Batman was essentially your servant in, um, was more than that because they were fighting, um, but it was, but it was, you know, every, you know, everybody's, uh, everybody's in the trench together, right? It's not like, it's, it's not like you're protected because you're one of the gentry and you can't send your Batman out to get shot for you, um, because they are shooting at you as well. Um, so I don't know. I mean, the other thing I would say is I appreciate it a lot more was just how much of Tolkien's war experience. It comes through also in the, in this adaptation and, um, and that's how I see that relationship. It is, it is really, you know, uh, officer and Batman, uh, which is Batman is like what they called the, the, this, you know, your Porter, right? Porter.
JVL01:09:40Yeah. No, I, again, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying like, that is a relationship for which, again, there is no American analog for it.
Mike01:09:48But I, but I think it works because it feels true. But I think, I think it works because it feels true. Which is cool. Because it feels true. That's what I guess I was getting at. It feels like something that comes out of reality because it does. So that's, that's my view on that. Um, I don't know any other thoughts on, on Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring.
JVL01:10:06Um, I mean. Arwen or Galadriel. Ooh, that's a tough one. Uh. Whichever one I say, keep the ears on.
Mike01:10:17I would say Galadriel, uh, uh, Cate Blanchett is like stunning in. This is peak, peak Cate Blanchett. She looks so good.
JVL01:10:28So I, I would say, so I just want to do one quick word about her, her voiceover work in the intro. So the intro, this is, there are three, my mind, three opening introductory montages in cinema, which are like for me, utterly defining, right? They, they, they create perfect movies and the movies simply don't function without them. And in each case. They rely on a voiceover. And the voice work is, is astonishing. This is the first one. The second one is Royal Tenenbaums and the voiceover is done by Alec Baldwin, who is nowhere else in the movie. He's just like narrating the book and it's the world's building in that is perfect. And the third is Daniel Craig in Layer Cake. And that opening montage, again, it, it sets this, each of these is like eight minutes long, I think. And it sets the entire stage for the, the production perfectly. Every piece of information you need to navigate the entire thing is given to you. It's given to you in really interesting, inventive and beautiful ways. And it's all just anchored by this amazing voice work done by really good actors. Yeah, I think you're right.
Mike01:11:47I think you're right. I know we're going along here. There was one other thing I wanted to, I wanted to say just about the- Oh yeah, there we go. Just about the, the adaptation and the skill with which this was adapted and, and just the ways in which that the, the ways in which you could see the achievement on the screen. So one thing I love as a, as a reader of the novel is the way that the dialogue incorporates names of the chapters in the, in the book. So, so, you know, a shortcut, a shortcut to what mushrooms, right, which is the name of one of the chapters is a shortcut to mushrooms. You know, I love those little things. I also love the decisions that Jackson made to move dialogue from, from parts of the narrative to make it work more. So the, my absolute favorite moment of dialogue is Frodo and Gandalf's conversation in the mines where, where Frodo, you know, sees Gollum and expresses his disgust and, you know, I wish I. Pity that Bilbo didn't kill him and Gandalf says pity was what stayed his hand and which, which then turns into this kind of beautiful, you know, moment where Frodo is full of doubt and Gandalf reassures him that, you know, we, you know, all, you know, we must do with the, you know, with the time that is given to us. That whole sequence is terrific and it doesn't happen in the books in Mines of Moria. No, no, no, no, no. It happens. It happens in chapter two, a shadow of the past. In Fellowship of the Ring. It happens at the very beginning of the book. Oh, okay. When, when Gandalf comes back after finding out about the ring and they, and Frodo and Gandalf have all of that conversation in that end.
JVL01:13:37Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Mike01:13:38Right. And it like sets up it. And in the book, it works great because it sets up, it, it takes Frodo from being kind of this like, you know, young, doesn't have much to do, rich guy who's like got his uncle's old ring. Why does, why does any of this matter? And like makes it all of a sudden become serious, right? Because like he learns all this stuff and he's kind of has to be whatever. And in, in the film, you know, the propulsiveness of the film requires you to like, Gandalf has to come back and goes, is it secret? Is it safe? And then basically pushes him out the door. Like, it's got to like move quickly to get him out the door and get him on the road. And so that pause in the minds of Moria to have that conversation, it's just, it's like, that's brilliant screenwriting and brilliant filmmaking. And it's, I love it. I love it. Sonny, I could tell his flag. Sonny looks like he's going to die.
JVL01:14:30So he said they're going nerds.
Sonny01:14:33No, I, I, it's funny. I haven't, I have not actually read it since I have not read these books since the movies came out. So like 25 years now, it's been a while.
Mike01:14:45Well, you should, you should give it a try. Anyway. All right. Well, that, I think that's everything we, we, we're, we're, we're good. We don't need any more conversation. About this. All right. That is all the time we're going to give to this episode. Join us over at sub-beacon.com. Tell your friends and family and leave a comment, say hi, and we'll talk to you next time. Sonny, you watch slow horses, right? Yeah. Yeah. I did. I do enjoy it. Like we're, we're, we just finished season four and having a, what's his name? The bad guy. The bad guy from season four. And so in five slow horses, uh, uh, river's dad, uh, uh, who's the agent Smith. Yeah. Agent Smith. Yeah. Yeah. You go weave it. You go weaving. Yes. You go weaving. So like seeing him as Elrond, I'm like, no, you're the bad guy. You're the, you're the sadistic killer. Anyway, anything else? Any other outtakes?
Sonny01:15:46I had something. And then you, you, you guys, I derailed it. I had, I had some, I don't know. I got another one. I got out of it now I'm all out
Mike01:15:55I'm sure it's fine
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