#304. 'Andor,' Season 2 (Disney+)
Listen to this episode ↗on Substack, where the show lives now
The main event is the second and final season of Andor, which Sonny and Mike both adore while JVL, who only grudgingly watched a handful of episodes at their urging, remains a holdout. Sonny calls it the best-plotted, most morally serious thing Disney has done with Star Wars, arguing the show finally makes both heroes and villains hateable in a way even Rogue One ducked, that the Cyril-Dedra relationship is the most compelling romance in the whole franchise (more than Cassian and the "boring" Bix), and that the entire saga only really works because of the Death Star; he's cooler on the final three-episode arc, which he feels is just connective tissue bridging into Rogue One. Mike goes even further, ranking it alongside Rogue One and Empire as a spy-thriller that adds verisimilitude to the whole universe, singling out Diego Luna, Stellan Skarsgård's Luthen, and the quiet Mon Mothma character work as highlights. JVL counters that he simply doesn't like serialized streaming television as a medium (comparing himself to Sonny's aversion to musicals), praising the acting and ideas but insisting the whole thing is bloated filler that should have been a tight two-and-a-half-hour movie, plus a stylistic gripe about empty, cavernous frames. Before any of that, the episode opens with Mike welcoming listeners solo-style over Sonny and JVL, then burns a long first act on banter: Sonny's saga of a nail through his Kia Telluride tire at his son's soccer game and getting rescued by another dad, JVL's deep dive down the pinball-collecting rabbit hole (complete with "pin," "toy," and "hobby" jargon and comparisons to watch collecting), a Little League scheduling update from Mike, a box-office rundown (Thunderbolts, Sinners, the Minecraft Movie, Clown in a Cornfield, Friendship), and a spirited argument about HBO's reversion from "Max" back to "HBO Max" as a branding mea culpa. It closes with Sonny and JVL bickering over whether to trade in a rare Poe Dameron Star Wars trading card for a booster box.
<!-- rs -->
Some spoilers here through the end of the second season but we really don't talk about the plot that much.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00And what do you sacrifice? Calm Kindness kinship Love I've given up all chance at inner peace. I made my mind a sunless space. I Share my dreams with ghosts. I Wake up every day to an equation. I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion. I'm damned for what I do My anger my ego my unwillingness to yield my my eagerness to fight That set me on a path from which there's no escape. I Yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down There was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my what is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy To defeat them. I burned my decency for someone else's future. I burned my life To make a sunrise that I know I'll never see
Mike00:01:22Welcome to the sub beacon podcast. I'm your co-host Mike Warren Joining me as always are my two co-hosts who have friends everywhere Jonathan V last and study bunch join us over at sub beacon calm tell your friends and family they want to listen to the show They've got to sign up at sub beacon calm become a patron new episodes every Friday Comment it's always a lively fun discussion in the comments only at sub beacon calm we are gonna be talking about and or Later on in the show, but first Sonny you have Some you have some car talk I feel like oh yeah, yeah, you have car talk for us
Sonny00:02:03I forgot I forgot about I forgot about this no the so When you are driving a car and you and you and and you're you know you get someplace you get there There are things that happen once you've been driving a car for a long time that you recognize very very you instantly recognize that something has gone horribly wrong and you are about to have a bad day okay, and one of those things this is how this has happened to me once before but never never to this extent I Was driving my son to his Saturday morning Soccer game we you know we're there 15 minutes early. It's fine. We get there We pull in to the little parking lot. I get out of my car and I hear Now I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this but if you if you Have experience and this is like I said this is not actually the first time this has happened to me annoyingly, but if you hear that Gushing rush of air coming out of your coming out coming out of your car You know that you're about to make a trip to a tire repair shop because it was and sure enough I like got out and I was like at first. I was like is that my car. It's my car Which tire is it I found it immediately and luckily the tire was like positioned in such a way that the That the I don't know like two inch wide strip of razor metal that had Was sticking sticking out of the top, and I was just like oh fuck This is not this is not ideal. I was like I was like there's a tire. I know there's a tire repair shop That's like two miles from here. It's like right next to my house I'm just I'm gonna go I'm gonna get back in the car my drive right there, and I I got in the car and turned it On and started pulling out of the driveway or you know the little parking lot and the car was like you have 10 PSI in Your tire. I was like oh fuck so I I pulled I looped back around I Parked I'm like all right. I might have to change a tire here And luckily again. I'm in a I'm in a pretty pretty it's like a pretty big. You know kids Sporting area so I could you know Which which is it's all you know I've never actually changed the tire on this vehicle I of course have the Kia Telluride now. It's a the big you know SUV And I've never actually changed this tire before I've changed I changed tires on not on my lap my last car had run flats, which was nice Run run flats big so I've never actually had to change a tire on those I can make you look intrigued by the run flat Concept have you do you not know do you not know what run flat tires are I? Don't know what run flat tires okay? Well. I'll discuss those in a second you can drive on them with their You you if you get you drive on them for a certain amount of yeah, yeah, it's it's not it's not that complicated but the but the car before that I had a Volvo C30 which is the two-door Volvo? And I hit a pothole so hard Driving that car on a Virginia Highway that I dented the rim I brought I like broke the rim of I didn't break it But it like dented and and it in like the tire didn't pop or anything But it wouldn't hold air because the rim was dented anyway, so I've changed that tire But I know how to change a tire is my point here. I know I know how to change a tire. I'm a masculine You know strong man. I can do these saying it keep saying but I did not but I have never changed the the Kia Telluride tire before and when I like opened up the underneath isn't it we get when I open when I Get under you know and start pulling the tire out. There's no tire there, and I'm like nope I'm like well. It has there's a jack right here on the side. I know where the jack is there's legal hmm And I was like, but where's where's the tire so I do what every what I do anytime you tears something What's that YouTube YouTube? I was like I just went right to YouTube and I was like how do I change the tire on my Kia Telluride and that? And it explained that there's it's under the car and it's attached There's like there's like you know a hex bolt or whatever that you have to unscrew with you with the tire
JVL00:06:28You have to pull up the carpet in the middle row. Yes, yep. Yep. Yep Yep
Sonny00:06:34There's like a little tab that you pop you pop the tab and there's like a little bolt So and then when you and when you unscrew the bolt it lowers it doesn't like just drop it like lowers like on a winch You know yeah, it's a kind of neat little little it saves you space whatever it was fine, so I'm like doing this I'm I'm like I'm bringing this thing down. I'm getting it off. I'm taking it over there I'm going to set up the other jack and one of the other desks from the soccer team you know cuz Charlie soccer team comes running up comes Running up to help and it was it was great We had a leg it would you know he did he frankly did most of it He just like took over he was like I'm gonna and I was like all right you have at it I didn't I didn't feel emasculated at all by that it was fine
JVL00:07:19But the collaborative it was collaborative no it was where anyone of your blazers with the patches on the elbows I
Sonny00:07:26Was I what I was wearing a plaid? Shirt I had to like roll it up you know but the but it was now I was you know like it was it was one of these things where it was very annoying But it was it was an easy fix because I was in us I wasn't on like the highway you know I was it was like it was just it was it was it was quick And I took the tire to the repair shop again. That's like right around the corner from my house. I rolled up there The guys like what do you need? I was like I need to fix this tire. He's like all right they just took it and did it and he comes back and he you know they they put they put the They patch the tire they put it back on the car They you know they put the the spare back underneath you know cuz it like the Kia Telluride is the official car of my neighborhood like a I would say like They could go to their sleep like what one in every one in every five cars in my neighborhood is a Kia Telluride as Best as I can tell But uh but they they get it all winch back up there. I was like okay. How much do I owe you 20 bucks? It was like 20 20 bucks 20 minutes new the tires good as new So it was it was a little adventure, but it was just one of the again. It's one of these things were like You hear a noise, and you're like this is gonna take up a large portion of my day. I I love this I love what is happening to me right now. This is wonderful
Mike00:08:49Anyway, but it sounds like sunny it could have been so much worse like you you totally your a your preparation For that moment right you were just like you knew what it was and you were preparing To have it ruin your day that actually probably helped that actually probably made it
Sonny00:09:07Mentally easier for you, and then all the conditions you always bring your expectations to the lowest point possible That's what I that's how I live my life is is whatever can go wrong and make your day worse will probably happen And if it doesn't happen, then it's just a nice bonus usually it happens though, so
JVL00:09:23There you go JVL what's going on with you? I'm thinking about getting into pinball
Sonny00:09:30All right
JVL00:09:32Are you either you guys into into pinball? Ever been in a pinball I am not played it. I've played it many times
Sonny00:09:41Yeah, but we have a we have a big pinball fan of the show Kevin Kevin Loves pinball. I don't know really well
JVL00:09:50Boy Kevin I would like to talk to you. I was at one of my local arcades last week and it's their pinball selection is Amazing and I've always liked pinball. I've always played a lot of pinball if I go to an arcade I am more likely to play pinball than anything else and it's where I'm happiest plan I'm looking for the pinball and I you know, I know I know a little bit about pinball I know a little bit about the history of pinball design and which machines are well regarded Because spoiler it has nothing to do with the theme, right? I mean you see the Right. You're like, oh, this one's Lord of the Rings. It must be good. That's not that's not how Adams family pinball
Mike00:10:33That's the good one. Well, actually it is
JVL00:10:37Really and Anyway, and I just thought to myself I'd love to have a pinball machine at home I'd really be into this So I started going down the rabbit hole fellas. Yeah Yeah, I've been watching a lot of pin tubers. First of all, we call them pins pins in the hobby First of all, we call it the hobby
Mike00:10:58You you enthusiasts all of you enthusiasts. That's the week. You got the lingo down. We call it the hobby and
JVL00:11:05We call them pins. That's what we refer to them as and
Mike00:11:09Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I gotta stop you. What do you refer to pits the actual full machine the machine? Yeah
JVL00:11:17I went to the arcade. They had a bunch of pins. Got it. Okay, so we call it Pinside is really the the the hub of the The hobby a lot of pin tubers on YouTube I have found several that I really quite like straight down the middle probably my favorite pin tube show I'm watching a lot of it no tilt and I Mean it's here's the thing. You gotta hear me out There are a lot of similarities with watches Okay
Sonny00:11:58complications
JVL00:11:59pinball machines are Incredibly complicated very bespoke kinds of things they are created by small teams of artisans and It is you know your typical pinball machine has Basically five people at the head of the crew working on it and there is the designer who's like the architect of it There is and within the community Within the hobby and certain designers are really revered and when word comes out that they're working on a new machine who Keith Elling peep there's a new Keith Elling machine coming up people get all excited Gotta wait can't wait for Keith's new machine because that guy makes great pins get the updates Then you have an engineer whose job is to translate the architects vision the designers vision into reality You have the artists who do? Not only the the painted art all over the machine and the sides of the machine and on the game board but but the sculptures a Lot of sculpting going on a lot of sculpting you have a sound designer Whose job is to really just like a Foley artist for pinball? And and here's the thing which I had no understanding of and I'm so interested to know about you have a coder Who is in charge? Of because pinball machines are now solid-state based on you know, they're based on a CPU. They have a computer chip in them and That allows the coder to create The idea of how the pinball game is supposed to progress Because you know noobs just sit there and just mash the buttons. They're just trying not to go down the drain, right? That's my call go down the middle, right? But but the people actually play pinball are you know? Every shot is intentional and they're trying to progress through the game games have rule sets and objectives and quests and whatnot For instance, you will be interested to know Sonny the new dune pinball machine has a gum Jabbar mode in which a little box comes out on the front and You have to put take one of your hands and hold down a button on the top of the machine and then operate the flippers both sides One hand if you remove your hand from the gum Jabbar you die
Sonny00:14:34That's that's a little bit ridiculous
JVL00:14:37Yeah, that's a little bit ridiculous. That's the part that's a little ridiculous But uh, but what is interesting to me is that pinball machines are released with incomplete code so so typically a machine is created and They the decode designer has an idea for what the game play is going to be And they load that code up But then as the machine gets into the wild and by the way more than half of pinball machines now are sold to homes And not to operators meaning people's not surprised in arcades and They watch to see how people play it and then they keep updating the code base Interesting radically changing if this can go on for like two years after the machine has been and they and they push out and over-the-air updates to
Sonny00:15:28The code base and I don't mean you have to have your pinball machine connected to the wife. I mean
JVL00:15:34These days they all are sunny, obviously What are we children Wi-Fi enabled? And anyway, the whole thing is just Again, the precision that needs to be in in the machining of all these parts and how they're put together The the different sub specialties. I mean, there's a guy I mean you guys know about zombie yeti, right who is really revered in The community as one of the premier artists the premier pinball artists absolutely his job is sure I mean, they don't make a whole lot of pinball machines I don't know if you guys know this but you know, you might get like 10 of 10 new pinball machines out a year
Sonny00:16:13It's like I'm sorry when you say 10 new pinball machines. You mean 10 New models platform new model. Yeah, yeah 10 new models, right?
JVL00:16:21and
Sonny00:16:23Honestly, that seems like more than what I would have expected seems like way way too many. Yeah, that's like Yeah, too many
JVL00:16:30and you've got a very small number of production houses that do these and it's uh, It's all very interesting to probably there and like watches. They're very expensive. They're not cheap Yeah, I wouldn't say they're very expensive when you amortize it out Sonny
Sonny00:16:47Sure, I mean otherwise you'd be spending a dollar a game at the local arcade
JVL00:16:53Yeah, and you know the gas to get to the arcade back. Yeah after you spent
Sonny00:16:58$10,000 and I mean on games
JVL00:17:01Anyway, the point but also they they hold their value reasonably well and some of them increase in value That is a thing which has been peace sometimes like a watch like a watch I'm just saying I'm not there yet But I'm falling pretty hard down the same ball rabbit hole. The problem was my first question
Mike00:17:19What where are you actually in the process of purchasing one for yourself because it sounds like you're not quite there
Sonny00:17:26You're in the talking yourself
Mike00:17:27I'm in the contemplative phase
JVL00:17:31of the process
Sonny00:17:35Sonny did you ever did you ever comment? Well now the problem the problem with pinball machines is that they're so big Like they're they are they're large. They are it's not like a watch where you can you put it in a box? And it's on your dresser. I
JVL00:17:49Would have to be a one-and-done pinball owner is the truth. I would have to buy one machine I I could not do that That's what they all say that no that's so in watches you can own one watch you can't own two The number of people who own two watches is precisely zero, right? It's like once or you've you've got one or you've got like 15, right?
Sonny00:18:13Question though. Yes Sorry, I was I was like I that doesn't sound right I feel like there are lots of people who have lots of watches, but you're saying specifically you can't have two
Mike00:18:23Can it right because once you have two you're buying a third, right? But but question Because one of the thing in women in that didn't come up in what you discussed is are the vintage machines Where does that fit into the hobby?
JVL00:18:37So there are people who really love the vintage machines, which are the EM Which is electromechanical and it's they are more durable Right. Yeah, if you've got them working and you've got one where everything is working. It should keep working so long As you do basic routine maintenance on it. Yeah But they are kind of less fun. I I gotta say I don't love that. Yeah machines I really like like there's a there's a Godzilla machine that came out in 2021, which is hotness straight fire. I Really like the dune machine. The dune machine is Couple of machines toys. That's the other thing They you know, the designers call toys which are like the sort of centerpiece Of pinball things in the do the centerpiece of the the dune machine is is it a sandworm? Yeah, it is a sandworm and the sandworm is flush with the play surface But from there it can either open its mouth and swallow the ball it can sink down into This is the play surface or it can rise up on top of the play surface has a magnet so you can grab the ball magnetic Lee and hold it and then once it is, you know, like up six inches It can then either jettison the ball out And I like spitting it out or it can swallow it up and digest it. I mean, it's oh
Mike00:20:11Mmm Wow Two questions. Yeah, one's the short and simple The the part of the pinball machine that's like a little divot that like holds on to your ball And then spits it out kind of like what you were saying. Yes, but like You just see those in normal. What's what is that called?
JVL00:20:30Boy, I don't know the answer to this. I'm sorry They they the fellas the fellas talk about it. I want to say it's a trap but I try I could be wrong. That sounds right. Like, you know, I know what the spinners are. I know what the toys are Those are always the most intriguing part to me is the wire forms the wire form ramps are always the thing I like the most Oh, yeah, I like those things. Yeah, but the toys what everybody wants is the toy like the toy is the dope of Mean hit right on the way like oh if I just hit Homer's belly like on the Simpsons machine Right if you guys have played the Simpsons machine, it's fantastic Yeah, I'll tell you what so the Twilight Zone machine has one of the coolest things I've ever seen which is that there's an elevated mini playfield and There are no flippers on it What is under the floor of the playfield so hidden from view are? flippers that are magnetic And so what in this little part as the balls comes down when you hit your flippers You're moving magnets, and so you the ball is just being pushed around as if by a telekinesis
Mike00:21:39It's cool as shit. It is cool as shit Second question yeah Have you have you dived into the history of? pinball machines as a Vice right because didn't didn't like they were things like
Sonny00:21:57Literally illegal yeah in some places like a subplot in it's a subplot and licorice pizza remember yes that Philip Seymour Hoffman's kid is like he becomes like a pinball magnate when they
Mike00:22:12Make it legal again in in the state. Well. It's just so it's it's like associated with gambling and like licentiousness and and like people like kids spending wasting their money and I
JVL00:22:24Assume interesting like an offshoot of like pitching is it pachinko? Is that the the the Japanese that a Japanese game right like which is all gambling or a derivative of the slot machine? I assume that's where these things
Mike00:22:36Basically come from but I think that's fascinating that it like comes out of the world of vice and is now Now a hobby now. It's like it's like a it's like a niche little hobby. It's a it's a beautiful story
JVL00:22:49I just feel like I feel like I could really be into pinball
Sonny00:22:54I feel like that's a I feel like that's a thing you could definitely The problem again, the problem is it's a space issue. I have space for one machine
JVL00:23:02I have a lot of space for one machine, which means
Sonny00:23:05Which means what you're really gonna need to do is build a second shed. That's just a pinball shed. Oh
JVL00:23:13No, no, no, no, no, no the pinball shit
Sonny00:23:16Well, I mean it would have to be a really nice it would have to be like a climate controlled shed You couldn't just like put it in a in us in a shack. I could have a separate house
JVL00:23:25That becomes like the pinball arcade But you Can't there I would say these things are they are delicate little orchids and they need to be in Really strictly climate controlled areas and you need to use them fairly frequently They got a wax and a wax the surface wax the board. That's Yeah, I'm learning so much. I can't wait to report back And I want to know so Shannon my wife has stopped listening to the show and I find that so freeing Because we could just have These conversations now without me worrying that and is ever gonna get back to her so long as Lara doesn't narc me out Lara
Sonny00:24:09Well now it's definitely gonna
JVL00:24:12All right, well that's it I guess you know maybe when you guys come out to visit me in the jurors Hopefully I'll have a machine by then and we can all do a little do a little tournament action. I
Sonny00:24:22Thought you lived in New York
JVL00:24:27Like an electron I'm everywhere and nowhere
Mike00:24:33All right, all right, uh, anyway moving on I don't really have anything Okay, let's just yeah, that's all all I'll say is an update because I believe I said last week that we had five Little league games this week. We actually had Have four little league games this week and a Practice, but so far two of them have been canceled due to rain. So like we are now pushing
JVL00:25:05Into the tournament time. Yeah. Well, you guys should finish your season no later than July 25th
Mike00:25:13It's getting ridiculous anyway, but that's all I got why don't we just why don't we just move on here and talk about the box office Because it's another week where like nothing has changed right like Thunderbolts remains number one at the box office The sinners number two minecraft movie number three
Sonny00:25:32Yeah, it's what say you It's like a history. It's actually a historically bad weekend. Yeah, I think it's the first the first time in 20 some years that the second weekend in May did not gross more than a hundred million dollars Total which is you know, no, you know, you don't want to you don't want to see things like that happen. That's never that's never good Release well, it's it's partly because there's no big new release because everybody clears out every for four years now everybody's cleared out the second weekend of a Marvel movie because like you don't want to be you know, because partly because Marvel gets two weeks of the premium large format screens and partly because nobody but like, you know, Thunderbolts held well, I think it only dropped 50 54 6% Which is which is a solid hold for a Marvel movie, but like It's that's it's still only thirty three million thirty two million total, which is not ideal obviously Yeah, I mean I think that movie is it's it's holding fine I don't know sinners again drop 33% which is about what I figured it would drop And it is on track to do somewhere between 250 and 300 million dollars domestic Which is a huge number for an original are rated horror action movie. I like You just don't see numbers like that Yeah, I don't know, but it's kind of a slow. It's it's just a slow weekend I mean you know minecraft movies up over 400 million dollars domestic now that that movie is headed towards a Billion worldwide said 910 million worldwide, which is you know? That's a that's a huge huge number The accountant to holding okay, I guess there were three there were three new movies out in a cornfield Which which ended up being actually this is an important box-office stat here the biggest opening weekend ever for an IFC movie So clown in a cornfield doing doing a big number. That's horror. Yeah. Yeah What do you think clown in a cornfield is about? Amusing the children like an interesting documentary about
JVL00:27:53Some dude in Iowa who well that would also be a horror movie
Sonny00:27:57Because he would have bodies in his in his corn stacks. No, I mean, I you know, it's But yeah, that's a that's a that's a horror movie it's a big big big number for IFC I mean again, it's the sort of movie that costs they they buy it for a couple hundred grand They spend a million dollars on advertising you do fine With stuff like that in this genre But I'm sure clown in a cornfield 2 will be an even bigger hit, you know, it's gonna do the Terrifier We go
Mike00:28:30What about friendship friendship was just released this past weekend the to friendship is a yeah friendship friendships on it limited
Sonny00:28:38It's I mean, okay. It did it what it here's I think I've talked about this before It's gonna have your typical a24 arc. It's an a24 movie. So it was released in LA in New York City and it did $75,000 per screen the $75,000 per theater average That's that's an enormous this thing's gonna be a huge hit The audiences are so psyched for it and it's gonna end up grossing probably 15 million dollars domestic And you know, it'll and like I actually so I saw it last week and I think it's it's actually it's actually really good It's one of the funniest movies I've seen in a long time. I Mike you're a Robinson guy right huge Tim Robinson fan. You'll love this movie. You will love you will love this movie I mean, obviously obviously I better like this movie you don't please don't do that Don't don't try to make your I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't doing it. You were clearly trying to Appropriate Tim Robinson's comedy stylings, and I don't appreciate it. I don't like it Don't do it. No, but it's a it's a it's a it's it's very funny. It's very very funny I'm my reviews and my newsletter this week And maybe we could do it for an episode next week Because it's gonna be it'll it expands. It's gonna be in more more theaters this weekend. I think it's 1,500 or 2,000 screens But again, it's gonna eat every a 24 movie is like this a 24 releases a movie All the people in New York City and LA go see it in the first weekend and it puts up a huge per theater number and then it expands wider and nobody in the rest of the country has any interest in it like that just that's just you Know and that's and that's fine because a 24 is making movies for like five to ten million dollars for the most part It's it's not it's not a it's you know, it's not a huge huge commercial Liability for them, so it works it works. It's a business model but It's it is so consistent at this point that like I can smell it coming a mile away. It's just like There's nothing happening. Yeah
JVL00:30:44Do you want to take a victory lap on HBO max? Oh Yeah, so does that not not interest you at all?
Sonny00:30:52You two should get to spike the football. Oh, yeah, Mike you wanna you you can spike The football if you want that's fine by me
Mike00:30:59Well, I mean did I call this or I just we were all very very much like this is dumb
Sonny00:31:05Don't change it to max. It's the stupidest Thing I don't know I like There's some there's some question as to whether or not HBO or HBO max is a better brand name for your streaming service I think HBO max is actually fine because it works. Yeah, it connotes it connotes a very specific thing Which is like we have HBO And some more stuff like it's like Disney Plus like Disney Plus or Paramount Plus or whatever It's like that that's fine. Whatever that that is that is fine But this this shift from HBO max to just max was the stupidest decision that any corporate was apparatchik has made in
Mike00:31:48What was amazing to me about it is that and I saw a montage of this on Twitter this week The day it was announced they had multiple multiple talent in various interview settings or whatever Shitting on max like they because they would they would sort of reflexively call it HBO max And then they would have to like correct themselves because they had been You know re-educated to call it max, but like it doesn't you know? And I think it's like, you know Conan interview on hot ones where he's like max ooh that really rolls off the tongue there was like a real kind of almost immediate revolt from everybody involved at you know with if the broader Warner Brothers world at this rebrand and It just took them like two years to be like, oh, yeah, we made a mistake Never mind
Sonny00:32:40because I mean this happened I understand if you sit down and explain it to somebody the individual steps that led to this all make some amount of sense right which is that You you have a brand HBO that is very valuable, but the ceiling on it is is is Relatively low because you are appealing to higher status higher class individuals And they're that that that audience is by its very nature limited So you say we don't want to scare away the rubes who watch Discovery and HGTV So we want to get rid of the HBO brand on this to make it appeal to everybody HBO still exists It's a hub within this network. We're not getting rid of HBO We still have HBO originals, but it's not the name of the service which we want to use to appeal and like I Understand that I understand that but HBO is literally Like it's it's really hard to outside of with the exception of like Disney It is hard to it is hard to overstate how Valuable the HBO brand is you say HBO and people are like, oh, yeah, that's a place where you Get high-quality television and like not quite first-run movies. It's it's like it's you People don't know brand names of studios and distributors like this. I mean literally
Mike00:34:10And I don't really know if this happens anymore, but like, you know growing up driving around And and you see like a motel Advertising HBO on the sign like tells you everything they need to know and I think While what you describe is a sort of a logical Thinking from the corporate level. It's also shows an extremely a lack of awareness about their about their own brand and about their own product where like this I and kind of a real condescending view of The viewers right like the idea that oh like as you put it like the rubes don't know what or don't like HBO It's like that's that's total bullshit like that
Sonny00:34:57Wrong, they're not actually wrong about that that that was that would that was probably I mean it's again It's like it makes sense trust Mike. Trust me on this just
Mike00:35:07But what the people like see HBO branding and they're like, ooh, I don't like that I don't want anything to do with it real JBL for instance
JVL00:35:18Well, okay, well no, no, I just meant the people who look at it and think oh It's plays like sex in the city girls. I like everybody Loves Raymond and the Drew Carey show that's what's really funny. Hey, I like the Drew Carey show
Mike00:35:34but No, but my point my point is that it's it doesn't connote anything but but quality and like What's that? What's wrong with that?
JVL00:35:49Leets I just want to watch me some reality TV. I want to get on that shark week
Sonny00:35:57We're laying look at shark week again. I Mike he's he's he's out of line, but he's not wrong He's it's it's it's that's what that's what the actual audience is like I like again, it's it's one of these things where you you did you cannot think at all you want it This is what this is what the I don't think I see data shows
Mike00:36:19Okay, but I don't think as a branding matter that it like hurts You to have something branded HBO and As though as like it's not like going into a red state and being like NPR or something like that. I don't think it has that same like connotation, but I guess I'm wrong
Sonny00:36:41it's It's it's a similar connotation. It's a similar. It is a similar connotation
Mike00:36:48interesting, it's just it's Stop it. Not not my experience
Sonny00:36:53And it's in the difference the difference is once once HBO shift It from being the place where you see nearly for like second window movies, right the place where you see the movies That came out a year ago. That's that's what I did boxing. That's what it used to be Yeah, that in boxing and like stand and real sense to me It used to be a specific sort of thing then in the age of the Sopranos It became the golden age of television. Okay, right it became it became the place where you saw sex in the city or Deadwood or Sopranos or the wire And I like all of those shows are good or bad to varying degrees and all of them Very few of them were watched by a critical mass of people I mean even the Sopranos like topped out at maybe 10% of the national audience like right like it was it was not that Was that was by far the biggest? HBO hit Until Game of Thrones and like the but even like Game of Thrones. I think didn't put up Sopranos numbers Really? I'd have to go back and check also you get into weird things with Time-shifting and by the time Game of Thrones comes out, there's VOD etc. So but like but like HBO was high-quality stuff watched by Few people and all of them wrote op-eds for the New York Times and like that is that's like the that's the audience and people Self-select to not be in that audience
Mike00:38:18Okay, I just think there's enough of a legacy of it's the thing that's that you get when you check into the hotel and
Sonny00:38:27You can watch if I see a hotel that is advertising that they have HBO. I'm driving away from that hotel
JVL00:38:33That was true 30 years ago when it was like
Sonny00:38:36See my movies. You might see some boxing Mike Mike. Are you saying that's a sign of quality that you're driving by?
Mike00:38:46It's a sign of familiarity Hatchie, I'm saying it's a sign of familiarity wax a hatchet good good pull No, I'm just saying it's something it's not like spooky in Scary to people it's just like maybe not something they watch but also not gonna be like Like there's not gonna be some great big mark, you know mass market like revulsion to it again
Sonny00:39:07I why you know, I the the problem when the problem with all of these streaming companies is that they all want to be Netflix They all want to appeal to every they want They all want to be everything to everyone and that's what HBO max like kind of is right with the discovery stuff with the HGTV stuff with the HBO With CNN with the TNT TBS I like there's an argument to be made that HBO max is the thing for everyone but you know Okay, they were worried. They were worried that HBO does not signal to people. We are for everyone It's they say it signals, you know, we are for the snooty nerds
JVL00:39:44And even then not as snooty as the people from Apple TV Plus Premium Streaming Prime. What is the official name of that?
Sonny00:39:52Apple TV Plus Yeah, that's Apple TV Plus is the new
JVL00:39:57HBO I thought there was more there wasn't a third or a fourth qualifier on the official name
Sonny00:40:03Apple TV Plus now just just the third Apple TV Plus TV
Mike00:40:11Played Michael well played Okay. All right. Well, we're not talking about HBO max or Apple TV Plus. We're talking about a Disney Plus show This week we're talking about and or which Sonny and I have been fans of and we dragooned JVL into watching a few episodes despite the fact that he doesn't watch TV shows So Sonny, do you want to give us kind of an overview of and or which just wrapped up this week? Not only its second season, but the series in total With this last tranche of episodes. Yeah, so JBL
Sonny00:40:51You just watched the three that we taught we told you to watch right? Okay. I think I watched the first six of
JVL00:40:57season one
Sonny00:40:58Okay, probably watch. I think we did we watched the first three made. Did you keep watching?
JVL00:41:02I I watched for three more in an attempt to try to force myself to care. Yeah
Sonny00:41:10so All right. So and or is a prequel to a prequel, right? It's the story of Cassian and or and surrounding Rebels and Imperial folks who were involved in the creation of the Death Star though
JVL00:41:27whole ma
Sonny00:41:29Mon Mothma And Director Krennic Who because of course this leads into? Rogue one the whole show kind of leads and as if you watch the whole If you watch the whole and/or series it very much leads into like quite directly It's like and/or flying off to the beginning of Rogue one, which I have not I need to rewatch. I have not watched that It's so good probably it's so good So good every watch like three months ago good movie. I I remember liking it a lot anyway so Rogue one prequel We meet all these new people. We meet some familiar faces. We but it is I I I'm just gonna lay my cards here on the table, and there will be spoilers, so if you're worried about spoilers Don't don't you know the tune out listen whatever? I'll lay my cards out on the table now The thing that I find most interesting about the show is its release pattern for this Season so the first season remember they released the first three episodes and then an episode a week right, and I ended up I ended up watching the first three episodes for our podcast and then kind of Stopping because I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't that into it I just didn't I didn't find it that interesting and then I came back to it, and I watched it all at once Or not you know Like I basically watched an episode a day for a week or two, and I was like oh, this is actually pretty good It's it's actually pretty good, and the reason it worked for me is because it's not it's not like a TV show It's more like for Connected movies the the first the first Season basically rolled out with four separate arcs each of them putting and/or in a different place with like some surrounding You know imperial drama But I I thought that I thought that really worked Out and they leaned into it in this second season so the second the second season they released Tronches of episodes they basically did three episodes Once a week for four weeks and each one of those tranches is like a little kind of almost self-contained Not self-contained, but continuing. You know movie right?
Mike00:43:47like its own episode like mega episode right so you
Sonny00:43:52JBL watched the the end of the the Gorman kind of cycle of this show which involves the the Imperial effort to Eradicate the Gorman resistance so they can get the material out of the ground that they need to power the Death Star I I will say that Kind of like the first arc of episodes in the first season the last arc of episodes in this season left me kind of cool because It is just leading Mike. Have you watched the whole thing? Yes. I've watched the whole thing Okay So a like it is very much just kind of setting up the movie and it like I was like, okay The story is done. The story is done after episodes, you know, what was it seven eight nine? Yeah. Yeah, so everything else is just kind of a bridge to the movie and you know There's some good stuff there about that. But I I think it's I just think it's I think it's a really it's a really well done show about the a How to describe this it's a really well done show about a living living within kind of an authoritarian system and fighting against it but also like the the The ways in which actual rebellion are ugly and mean and cold and Inhuman and I like it's it's one of the few it's one of the few shows It's one of the few Star Wars things period where they have really leaned into making both the heroes and the villains be hateable Be be like people that you can really Take moral issue with even in Rogue one Even in Rogue one remember there's that sequence. There's that sequence at the end where Darth Vader shows up and he kills a bunch of like no-name guys, right and I have always thought that There's a better version There's a better version of that ending where they escape off the planet with the plans and they're going to take them to the ship To take to Leia and they get stopped by Darth Vader and Darth Vader kills all of the heroes from the movie, right? He'll does the same exact thing but with people we actually care about and they do you Disney doesn't want that Disney doesn't want that because you want to be able to actually secretly Cheer for Darth Vader murdering the shit out of all these people you want you want to be like you want to be like Oh, this is fun. Look at Darth Vader. He's doing Darth Vader things but if he's doing Darth Vader things to people you care about you can't do that and And that's always been the tension at the heart of Disney Star Wars That's always been the tension at the heart of Disney Star Wars is that they want you to? Love all of these characters even the bad ones kind of like you want you they like they don't they don't they don't want to they Don't really want to push back again
Mike00:46:56Who's gonna want to go get their kids pictures with Darth Vader? At Galaxy's Edge if he straight-up murdered
Sonny00:47:05Cassian Andor and exact no, that's that's that's totally it and this and this show I think does a very good job It's the first time they have really shown the Empire being like genuinely Genocidal II evil in a way. That's not kind of cartoony
Mike00:47:25Destroying a planet that we don't
Sonny00:47:26Know anybody from and yeah, we don't see also that was you know, it was a bad planet with bad people on it Anyway, the the the that's neither here nor there the the the broader the broader my broader point here though is that it it it it actually does the dark Star Wars thing that people have wanted for a Long time and it does it much more capably than George Lucas did just in terms of plotting and dialogue and And action and all that and I I JBL I I get it. I I it is it is slow at the start It really I for me It didn't really hit its stride until the episodes where he's in the prison where and or is in the prison in the first season And that's I think The episode seven eight nine that arc there But it it works and I have to say this this show also has the It has what I find to be the most compelling actual love story in the whole Star Wars universe the Cyril Deirdre relationship and like the the these two these two Imperial apparatchiks who like Fall fall in love with each other and have this tragic and I like I find that very compelling It's it's more compelling frankly than Cassian and Bix who are like the hero the hero couple like I don't care about them They're not that interesting to me. They're just good. There's just Bix is boring Bix is boring Anyway, so the show the show works for me and it drives home. It also drives home one last thing about Star Wars I'll stop talking which is that the only thing the only thing that is interesting about Star Wars. It's not it's not the skywalkers It's not the force. It's not It's not Even the Empire and the struggle between freedom and authority. It's the fucking Death Star the only thing that is Interesting in Star Wars is the Death Star That's why this show works is because everything is revolve everything revolves around the creation of the Death Star It's why it's the idea the visual idea of a planet sized weapon that destroys other planets is The only thing people care about in Star Wars. I'm sorry like I'm sorry This is I've come to believe this more and more. I think it's I think that Without Death Star without the Death Star Star Wars does not exist as a thing. That's it
?00:49:57Yeah, I
Mike00:50:00Take your point counselor
JVL00:50:02Michael tell me what you think about it before I shit all over the thing that you guys love. Yeah
Mike00:50:07Well, as I said, I believe in our text thread and having finished the season while I agree with Sonny's Minor complaints about about that final the final three episodes. I Maintain that it is I think if not If not, it's maybe it's not the best Star Wars product ever But it's right up there like it's right up there with Rogue one and and Empire And it for all the reasons that Sonny mentioned, you know, it does dark Star Wars Well, I think it does JVL what you have often said should be done with Marvel and has been done with various you know success is Putting But doing in this world Genre movies and television shows of different genres This is a spy thriller. This show is a spy thriller in Star Wars And I think it succeeds as a spy thriller It succeeds as a Star Wars product and it succeeds as a spy thriller Star Wars product like all all three of those things It works. It works so well. It does things in Star Wars that you don't see in the Star Wars universe that you don't see but you know but but you know happen and They and so it adds this verisimilitude to the entire Star Wars universe in a way that for instance The the theatrical prequels that Lucas made like really don't like again It's visual. It's bad Dialogue, yes, but it's like as a whole That doesn't feel real in a way though those three movies don't feel real in a way that the Originals do because they're made on a on a budget. It's pretty particularly the first one and this Captures a lot of that verisimilitude in the way that people Kind of interact on a daily basis with the Empire In the way that people's lives kind of have to go on But also in the way that this kind of this fascist authoritarian Empire Impedes on that and what would that look like? In a real way what how would that actually affect people how would people who are trying to rebel? How would they fuck up? How would they? get angry with each other and Distrust each other how would the terrorism which is that's what it is the terrorism of the rebellion like how would that actually go? And how would people? sort of react to that So it the sort of environment Or the structure of the show works great, and then you add I think
Sonny00:53:01Incredible performances go ahead. I'm sorry. Can I add one thing to that Mike just the the the idea there? There's this great sequence in the second season where and/or lands on what we learn later to be yavin the the base of yavin And he he encounters these two Fighting groups of rebels who are like trying to kill each other because they they both think they should it's like it's very people's front of Judea versus the Yes, and it's like it's it's a perfect and and the show is riven with this this this idea of the inability to actually stand up against the Empire because everybody nobody trusts each other and everybody is Everybody thinks their method is the best and you know it's it
Mike00:53:45Everybody's calibrated a different way, which is just it's real. That's reality That's how these things happen and and it gives and it adds weight to the rebel alliance that we see in the original movies right it adds weight to it because You like now you can kind of see like from where it came Here is what it is now. I want to say the performances of so many of the main Characters are like they really sell it Deirdre and Cyril as you said, it's not just a great love story like the the the performances are Terrific, I think Diego Luna is Is phenomenal and he's a great actor before this and it's just it's he's there's a reason why they put made a show around him Because I you know, he is so much more compelling than anybody else in Rogue one it's I think it's funny by the way that Disney Plus Understandably the little card they have Advertising Rogue one. It's now Cassian and/or in the front with with the Alan Tudyk's robot and and Jenner so behind him, you know, even though or so is Jenner so supposed to be the main character of that But like Stellan Skarsgård he's phenomenal in this show that the whole character of Luton rail and the the way that The way that he confronts Cassian and/or in Mon Mothma with like kind of what they're doing and what they're really joining up against It's it's I mean in a way. It's it's a there's a Sounds nudie about it's like it's a mirror up to the Star Wars audience Like you do realize that like your heroes. This is what they're like. They're rebels They're they're they're they're terrorists. They're bad people and you should like you should like, you know Like maybe they're good people fighting for a good cause but like they're doing bad things In order to do it and that's something that you've got to deal with. I I just think it's terrific even when it's failing which I think there's a couple of sequences I do think the last the last trilogy doesn't work Well enough and there's too much shoehorning in of like a member Barry type stuff even though I like KSO to or whatever his name is like The the robot it's like, okay, we get it. He's he's comic relief. I do think it's the murder droid Yeah, it's it. It's so funny when he gets bored then it's out of the ship and goes and kills a bunch of people The the other thing I want to say about this show is the limited use of aliens is so I Thank you. Thank you Star Wars and Disney for you just for having human centric Star Wars. Totally It's it's it's great with like the aliens are like on the periphery And they're there. It's not like they you know, you'll see like one walking in the background. They couldn't lead a rebellion. They're just They're not right. Okay, so it's you know as opposed to like shoehorning in every Little alien creature like they did in the prequels like into the Jedi Council and all the stuff We're just like it just got it got too silly Like this is a it's it's it's like not even clear to me that Tony Gilroy even like Star Wars
Sonny00:57:15I think very clearly doesn't frankly. He doesn't like Star Wars
Mike00:57:20so it's I it's Star Wars for people who are tired of Star Wars and for that I say wonderful more more
JVL00:57:30JVL I Mean it's fine
Mike00:57:35That's all the time we're gonna okay
JVL00:57:37Here's the here's the problem. I really I want At this point. I think I am to series television. What's Sonny is to musicals Yeah, which is just the medium itself. I find so tedious that No matter how entertaining or engaging or Worthwhile or filled with artistic merit the thing might be the medium of it is still just anathema to me Everything you guys say is correct. It is John le Carre's Star Wars the perform that they have real actors doing interesting work on screen Has been Mendelsohn like I've never not liked anything with Ben Mendelsohn in it Coleman
Sonny00:58:26He says go man. I love you didn't tell anybody about the Death Star. Did you mate?
JVL00:58:33It has big ideas as you say about the nature of revolutions and like I mean we could do 30 minutes on why the American Revolution was different from this Because of like the singular figure of George Washington And now having you know one guy who basically all the different factions can agree on Allows things to proceed more smoothly In what is always? You know the the cooperation game that is a revolution is very very hard to pull off successfully But What is what is it that every movie has to do? Well, let me let me step back if you were trying to Come up with definitions of art, which is impossible one of the definitions you might come up with is that art is the act of figuring out economy of force in expression and This is at the the movie level the first thing that every every filmmaker has to do is figure out How do I fit this story? into 75 minutes 90 minutes something like like it's it's so hard And so you you hone every every frame counts. You don't want to give any screen time to anything that isn't really essential and you're constantly sharpening and honing and polishing and We even in something like this which has so much merit it's just there's there's like seven minutes of story in every 35 minute show and They're just bloated and filled with lingering stuff that don't serve any function artistically or narratively or even tonally or emotionally Other than padding it out Like this could be a single Two and a half hour movie probably I don't know maybe it could be two two and a half hour movies like dune And I just I I hate that I hate the filler I resent it and That is what series television is It's filler
?01:00:56I
Mike01:01:02Mean I don't know against Television. Yeah, I just like I don't know what to tell you other than like
JVL01:01:10Yeah, you don't you just don't like television. I think that's that's maybe what it is. I I Mean television lets you do things that you can't do in a movie, which is like generational storylines, right? I mean you Not literally generational, but but you can tell stories that go over Years right where the characters evolve in ways that you just never have time to even you know Like or if you try to do it, it looks like the Irishman, you know But I don't know yeah, I just have one one stylistic note sure about and/or which is How empty the frames? seem often and I I Understand it I think because it's just getting shot in the volume but I wish that it could look a little more claustrophobic and so because we I mean We're just shown a lot of huge cavernous interior spaces that don't have very much in it. And so Like don't show us big spaces shrink it all down make it small the room smaller. You didn't watch this
Mike01:02:26The prison sequence. Did you know from season one? I mean you get quite a bit of that in in in that and it's So but I hear you I hear the complaint about particularly the the chorus on just observation. It's just a reservation
Sonny01:02:41I I will say I do think that Most of this was not shot in the volume just for the record Most of it was shot on various in various real locations. I'm pretty sure maybe some of the big chorus on Stuff because that that is like a you know, wholly created cityscape, etc. But the But like I'm pretty sure like the stuff on Yavin for instances is shot And the stuff in Gorman is like a built bill I mean, it's not it's not a real city, but it's like a real built-out set in the cityscape, right?
JVL01:03:19I feel bad not liking it. Well, no, you know, if you don't like TV, you know, yeah, but I just
Mike01:03:26I would say that Perhaps one thing that you're missing or again, it's just it's there's there's no accounting for taste but like that time that you think is like Wasted or or what are we padding this out for? I mean you could argue and I would argue that if if the characters are are people you want to spend time with which is ultimately like television is character driven and and Because you're inviting characters You're inviting these people into your home, right? That's what TV is and there's there's an intimacy to it I Love spending - I love for instance seeing Mon Mothma in The Senate in Coruscant talking with you know trying to try to do politicking at her daughter's wedding dancing to You know while drunk Listen at her daughter's wedding as she spins out like I love spending All that time with her and seeing her in ways that like you would judge to be padding I I find that to be like time spent with let me quality time spent
JVL01:04:37Let me push back against this a little bit, please. It isn't it isn't really that I'll dislike television. I don't think maybe I'm wrong I dislike what television has become in the age of streaming. Mm-hmm. I I used to watch before I had children lots of TV. There were many TV shows that I enjoyed Love Law and Order which are self-contained Sitcom is totally different, right? Seinfeld Arrested Development these things are fantastic, but they're self-contained and again, they're very tight, right? I mean those things are written to within an inch of their lives. Yeah But the in the age before streaming television episodes Really needed to work as standalone TV pieces of entertainment and you needed to be able to tune in to the a-team or Knight Rider or I mean, I'm using back to heart John Hart I'm choosing bad television Simon and Simon But I think like Battlestar Galactica the good Battlestar Galactica Justified right every every every episode of justified has a very clear arc and a very story that it is trying to tell Independent of the larger arc of the season right and you know If you pull back in a way, you can see how it fits into the larger arc But but zoomed in with the thing you're watching That is fully self-contained Yeah, and I don't feel like streaming series TV is fully self-contained. I feel like the series streaming is Almost entirely dependent upon the whole
Sonny01:06:31And I yeah, I mean I think maybe that's wrong. No, but I I think this is also We're running long here. I this is you know, this is a there's a form and function question here Which is that the the way streaming works particularly in the post Netflix age where they champion the mass-release? model and and/or does kind of a Variation on I think again from my mind successful is that it encouraged it encouraged the mode of binge watching where like nothing not only not only Is nothing self-contained nothing should be self-contained because you don't want people To watch one episode and stop you want them to leave on a cliffhanger and be like I gotta stay up till 3:00 in the morning And watch this thing, you know, that is that and I don't think and/or is like that precisely though Again the way they did it with the three Episode release batches does kind of encourage a smaller version of that but again, it's like it's it's like it's a little bit like releasing a Movie a week Yeah, like a series of movies in a week or a series of movies in a month if this thing costs six hundred million dollars so like Between the two seasons so like, you know, it might it should it should feel kind of like a movie event every week But you know, that's that's neither here nor there
JVL01:07:56Anyway, those are all my distorted thoughts. I wish I wish I took the level of enjoyment you guys did from it I'm not I'm not against it. I don't begrudge you. It makes me very very happy It makes me super happy that somebody's trying to do something like this with a Star Wars property
Sonny01:08:10It's great. It's just not for you. Just not for me. You are most people though I get the sense this these shows do not do well in the ratings
JVL01:08:18You should make it a movie put it in theaters. Let me go into a premium format theater and watch a Well-constructed story because I'm I'm a story or I'm there for the story. The story is the star plot guy
Sonny01:08:32You're you're a plot guy. It is William Goldman says the story said that about you. Yeah
Mike01:08:38Well, we could go on and on but we won't Or will we check in next week cliffhanger? All right. Well, that's all the time We're going to give to this episode join us over at sub beacon comm tell your friends and family and we'll talk to you next time
Sonny01:08:55If there was an and/or pinball machine, I bet there I bet I must be There I bet there's certainly a rogue one pinball mission. Absolutely. I was gonna say rogue one pinball machine for sure There must have been a rogue one pinball machine. I don't know the answer to that Hold on. Stay with me. Well, while you do that, we can Mike guts more Star Wars card game talk here for you
Mike01:09:24We're almost an hour ten
Sonny01:09:25As I texted you JBL. I I pulled One of the rarest of the the cards from from a pack. I got a Poe Dameron showcase card. They're called one in 300 packs these showcase cards Tell you what, I'm gonna trade that in for a box a booster box. It's gonna be great
JVL01:09:45Don't know do not sing don't trade that for a booster box. I will I will hunt you down now
Sonny01:09:51It trust me. It's these things are not gonna hold their value. I know you should
JVL01:09:55Be just put her on eBay. No, a booster box is 90 bucks
Sonny01:09:59The actual the actual sales prices for these things are between about for this card particularly is about between 110 $100 it's not this is not a $200 card to trust me. I've done my research here. Could you trading it in for I'm trading it in for $90 and trade-in value. I would probably get a hundred dollars plus shipping if I sold it on eBay
JVL01:10:22I'm totally fine with it. Could you get a few packs of cardboard?
Sonny01:10:26I Don't think so. I mean, I'm just I'm just trading it in for the for the you know, trade-in value Anyway, did you find a rogue one pinball machine? No, there isn't one no rogue one pinball machine
JVL01:10:38There's a video pinball version of it that they sold on PlayStation, but I don't video pinball is that's not That's not sure it's I'm sure it's fine
Spot something wrong in this episode? Suggest a correction →
Comments
Loading…