#272. 'Mr. McMahon' (Eps. 3 and 4)
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With Mike Warren off, Sonny and JVL spend the episode digging into the Netflix documentary Mr. McMahon, episodes three and four, and both come away more impressed than JVL expected — he calls it "the best conceived documentary I've seen on Netflix, period," praising its evenhandedness in interviewing Vince-hating figures like Bret Hart and Eric Bischoff alongside loyalists like Shawn Michaels and Triple H, even while flagging Netflix's own conflict of interest as WWE's incoming streaming partner. They walk through the Montreal Screwjob (both are sympathetic to Vince's business logic, if not his methods), the WWE steroid trial and Hulk Hogan's carny-code refusal to burn Vince on the stand, the breaking of kayfabe via Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Triple H, and Shawn Michaels' "Clique" embrace, and Triple H's Machiavellian rise to power — including the infamous storyline where he "kidnaps and marries" an unconscious Stephanie McMahon, which became real life — before settling on a P.T. Barnum comparison for how untouchable Vince became within wrestling's closed universe, debating whether he's best classified as neutral evil or chaotic evil. Before any of that, the two open with JVL's good news — a close friend's new baby girl — plus an update on his nearly-finished backyard shed, a long Dodgers-Padres NLDS tangent (Mookie Betts' stolen home run, Fernando Tatis getting plunked, fans throwing trash onto the field), and Sonny's saga of hand-watering a bald patch of his Texas lawn back to life like a grass hair transplant, capped by his dog's standoff with a fearless backyard rabbit. They also flag the disastrous box office of Joker: Folie à Deux, which opened to just $37 million on a reported $200 million budget after a D CinemaScore and sub-30% Rotten Tomatoes score, and close out riffing on the Rock's early gimmick evolution and David Shoemaker (the Ringer's "Masked Man," a presence behind this Bill Simmons co-production) as pro wrestling's answer to Norman Mailer.
From the show notes
Maybe the devil?
Full transcript
Mike00:00:00People wondered who I really am, you know, portrayal of me. I'm a bad guy, but no one really knows me In the world of professional wrestling, Vince McMahon, he's easy to hate What you expect, I don't fight fair, that's exactly what you're gonna get
Sonny00:00:30Welcome back to the Sub-Beacon. I'm Sonny Bunch. Mike Warren is off this week So you're stuck with me running the show here. You better, you better be nice to Mike Maybe he won't come back and you'll be stuck with me all the time. Nobody wants that. Uh, I am joined by Jonathan V. Last
JVL00:00:45Jonathan V. Last, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Do you know why I'm doing great? Why are you doing great? Because I woke up to some good news this morning from our friend John McCormick Had a little baby girl
Sonny00:00:59I know that's very nice. That's that's very exciting. I was
JVL00:01:05Your world weary voice this isn't very nice very saying this is one of the most exciting things in the world John and his wife Lauren are Saints. I agree. They're gonna be the best parents in the world
Sonny00:01:16well, so excited who could say but the but the but the I know I was like I was actually I remember I Learned of this in person. I was having lunch with one of my rare trips to DC I was having lunch with John and some other friends and he told me and it's one of the few times I've ever been actually excited for a Announcement of pregnancy like usually I'm like, okay great. Whatever. That's another but he'd they've been trying for so long. It's great It's it's it's delightful It's very
JVL00:01:51That's that's why I'm so happy today tell you what else I'm happy about by the end of tomorrow my shed will be Fully complete including fully operational fully Operational the painting will be finished. I have done at this point two sides with the first coat. I have done all of the trim two coats including the the high up gable stuff and I am oh It looks so good. Did I send you a picture you did? Yeah, it looks like a real looks like a real structure. It looks like an actual shed
Sonny00:02:35Yes, thanks. Have you started putting things in it yet? I have I have
JVL00:02:40I've begun my garage is almost ready to accept a car
Sonny00:02:46except one car
JVL00:02:47Well that side of the garage you have to you have a two-car garage, right? I do have a two-car garage
Sonny00:02:52Yeah, and you but you you have enough space on one side for one of the cars correct, but not the other car
JVL00:02:57I just want it before The winter comes I would like to have both of my cars Well, we have three cars I would like both of my cars that don't belong to that aren't don't include like the baseball Shuttle, which is what the other old broken-down smelly van is which is gonna become flashes car when he gets his license. Sure But the two grown-up cars, I would like to be able to park them indoors over the winter
Sonny00:03:24That's now it's not too much to ask is flash going to get his license Exactly at 16. I don't know what the laws are like in New Jersey. Are you allowed 17 17 in New Jersey?
JVL00:03:35Okay, you know 16 and he doesn't even have his learner's permit yet because but this is so this is the thing, right?
Sonny00:03:41Is it kids these days? They don't get their learner's permits and their driver's licenses. They they don't want to drive around. Oh
JVL00:03:48He wants to drive around but I I'm slow walking it
Sonny00:03:54For some reason don't you want don't you want to just be able to stop having to work? Worry about driving him around don't you want to let him let him I told you about his judgment when he went out like surfing
JVL00:04:06Yeah, and like really heavy seas
Sonny00:04:08I don't got scared. You got dad scared his his judgment is not in a place where I am
JVL00:04:16Super excited about him getting behind the wheel of an automobile That's all I would just put it that way
Sonny00:04:24Well, it's not like he's gonna be driving a McLaren around. It's a you know, it's a
JVL00:04:29No, no, I'm not worried about the car getting hurt. I'm worried about him. We're gonna killing himself
Sonny00:04:34This is kids are kids are pretty flexible It's hard to really hurt them, you know, can we talk about baseball?
JVL00:04:43Sure, if you would like I I would like to talk very little are you have you been watching any of the? Los Angeles Dodgers San Diego Padres series
Sonny00:04:54No, I haven't been watching any of that the Orioles were swept in the first round again and So I have turned off baseball baseball is done for me I'm on the I'm on to fantasy football now, but go ahead isn't Beth a Dodgers fan. I mean, she's from LA She kind of she does. She's not really a baseball fan. She likes the Dodgers in the sense that people from LA like winners, but
JVL00:05:14Well, I all right. Well, then maybe this isn't a conversation, but I am Absolutely electrified by this series because it is the first rivalry we have had since in baseball Which is a blood feud and it has like the early tooth late 90s and early 2000s Red Sox Yankees feud this is not at that magnitude because it doesn't go back a hundred years, but There you had two teams where one was the dynasty the other was knocking on the door for forever and kept like Getting up the mountain but then falling short getting up the mountain and falling short and the two teams legitimately hated one another mm-hmm, and that's what the That's what's going on in this series and I don't know why it's There are so many characters. Also, you've got you know, you've got Mookie Betts. Who's the golden boy? You've got Freddie Freeman who is this you know, beloved veteran who's out there hustling his heart out and playing really well Even though he's hurt get showy Ohtani who is Babe Ruth Then on the other side, you've got Manny Machado who is One of those guys who if he's on your team, you love him Love Manny Machado because he's for a long time real for a long time. His baseball IQ is off the charts He's kind of weird and he's a hundred percent a dick But if yeah, if he's your dick It's like he's like Danny Ainge. He's like baseball Danny Ainge if he's Love him. Yeah, and Anyway, I mean this is they in game two in game two they had Like Fernando Tatis got plunked and then this oh my gosh this was I don't know if you saw this so Mookie Betts hits what should have been a home run and The the right fielder I think for the Padres goes out and oh, yeah, I saw this goes up into The stands and grabs it out of the hands of a fan. Was it pro far? Was it true far? Yeah. Yeah and he comes down with his back to the To home plate and just starts backpedaling backpedaling backpedaling backpedaling and then finally turns around and holds up his glove With the ball by which point Mookie Betts is like halfway to third base. Yeah
Sonny00:07:58See that here's here's my I know you I think we have differing opinions on this But I am very much of the opinion that a lot of things in baseball should be regulated with fastballs to backs I Am very much in favor of plunking people who take their sweet time to get around the bases after hitting a home run
JVL00:08:20Oh, I'm totally in favor of that stare at the ball
Sonny00:08:22You get you're getting you're getting 100% in favor of that next time. I would also be in favor Of plunking jerks and pro far right in the back for that. That would be if if next time he comes up to plate I'm throwing the ball a hundred. I'm bringing in a Flamethrower reliever and I'm just having him crush him and then getting him tossed. That's what that's what I'm using that
JVL00:08:43picture for I you know what I In this case, I feel like it's different because it's the playoffs and it's a rivalry If this is a regular season game between two teams that see each other twice a season You know like between an NL East and NL West team, then I'd be like, okay, come on settle down dick But in a game like this like with this level of rivalry in the playoffs in a pivotal game a pivot game. I I think it's kind of awesome. No
Sonny00:09:18Show boating you're showing
JVL00:09:20It is and again, I'm against it. I'm in favor of plunk and had he gotten plunked in Retaliation I would have been fine with that. Yeah I'm totally fine with that then Manny threw a ball into the Dodgers dugout and Yeah, he threw a ball into the dugout after so he Tatis gets hit and Manny comes up and Manny strikes out. I mean the whole thing La fans started throwing shit onto the field. I saw that
Sonny00:09:52Good good old-fashioned Dodgers fans. It is
JVL00:09:57it is the And we're going to get a game five of it, and I'm so excited for it I don't even have a rooting interest like I like both teams. I think both teams are great. I Hope one of them goes on to win the World Series I'm a little pissed off that this is a five game series and not a seven game series
Sonny00:10:15Yeah, I I'm just fascinated. I've always been fascinated by the The I don't know what you how you would call it the the ethnography of La sports fans so like you know you have your Lakers fans who are like The stars you know the courtside seats with Jack Nicholson And whatever and like and they're there are cheaper seats in the nosebleeds or whatever, but that's like that's like the you know That's the high class In terms of the La Sports fan structure, but then you have Dodgers fans who you know It's different not only because baseball is different than basketball and there's more games And it's not as like the courtside doesn't mean as much For for for a Dodgers game, but also like it's at Chavez Ravine which is a pain in the ass to get to like nobody likes going to Chavez Ravine and and It's just a it's a and it they're closer. They're closer to Raiders fans of course Raiders the Raiders no longer exist in Los Angeles, but like the Raiders fans were like the lowest rung of the Los Angeles sports fandom that was like the even below I would say the The Clippers fans like it was like even even with the Clippers fans you have like some second tier celebrities like I think Frankie yeah, I feel like you never see
JVL00:11:32Like when the crowd shots even from the playoffs and Dodgers Stadium, you never see like glitterati
Sonny00:11:39I'm shocked say I'm always shocked by that because like you would think maybe they're maybe they're just harder to find because again
JVL00:11:45It's not courtside and you see a lot more stars at the US Open Yeah, right. I mean the US Open Especially we get to the finals just loaded with famous people. Yeah in this tiny little
Sonny00:11:58Tiny little stadium that they have. Yeah. Have you ever been to the US Open? Have you ever gone to Arthur Arthur? Ash Stadium is a trash, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you gone? I've never been I've never been it's pretty cool Dean like all these things the only tennis tournament I've ever been to was like whatever What was the like Mason? Yeah, the AT the leg Mason ATP which like it's fine But it's you know, there was never anybody higher than like 10th in the world there Like Andy Roddick probably came a couple times
JVL00:12:28but you did you go to like I mean, do you remember cuz I were going to like Mason and it was one of the Greatest live sports events of my life because I had never been able to get that close. Yeah, that was great And you could get me not in the stadium But in the outer courts where you would see ranked players I mean you could see top 30 players on an outer court and you could stand as close to them as you could stand to watch a High-school tennis match. Yeah, yeah, yeah and up close like that Tennis at the professional level is
Sonny00:13:09Inconceivable. Well, this is so this is my my big thing about the NBA, right? Is that like you watch the NBA on TV at home and it's like, okay, this is it's guys playing basketball And you watch it you even watch it in a stadium if you're if you're in, you know The 200 section or the 300 section. It's like, okay, here's guys playing I it wasn't until I saw a Wizards game at near courtside. I was like two rows off courtside But it was like the first born seats. No, it wasn't Fred Barnes. It was a friend a friend a lobbyist friend They had you know third row tickets and and we got we got Seats one day, but I like it was and it was a nothing game was Wizards versus I Wizards versus the Heat when they didn't have Dwayne Wade, you know, like it was like it was it was a terrible game but the but like watching Basketball watching professional basketball at courtside is a life-changing event. It is it is just like There these people are in humanly large. They are literally like Giants on earth. They're getting up and down the court in five strides. I mean like
JVL00:14:16They're so fast for as big as they are. They're so fast
Sonny00:14:20They're so fast and they're so big and it's just like the speed. This is actually kind of terrifying the
JVL00:14:27Speed that they are able to pass basketballs at is again, it's just not conceivable and not there's no translation to that like There that is nothing like
Sonny00:14:41Anything that you or I have ever done at the Y no, no, it's I mean and it's it is again. It's like it's actually Like scary is the wrong word. It's not like I was like But it is close to all just watching them watching them exist. It's like wow, so this Is like this is an entirely different type of human right here. Yeah, these these people they just though they do not exist in the same Sense that I exist with my with my friends and it's it's It's fascinating but getting that close to professional athletes I assume the same thing would be true if I like if I sat, you know six feet from The from the home plate watching, you know, I don't think that's true because
JVL00:15:27I mean, I've had very good seats and it's awesome. Like they're they're great but like flash flash it throws as hard as So, you know many of the pitches you will see during an MLB game and You know for him, that's his fastball mostly and those guys, you know, when you see somebody throwing 8385 most of the time It's off speed And for them, but it's still like, you know, like so if you sit and watch flash throw You're seeing you know, okay. That's basically what a pitch looks like at the major level not all of them You know, it's not what it's not what a 97 mile an hour fastball fastball looks like that's a different caliber But you're kind in the ballpark
Sonny00:16:23Yeah, I mean I'm thinking like Randy Johnson or you know, Steven Strauss burger, you know, yeah, what's it, you know that that is a
JVL00:16:31And their heat, right? I mean, you know 98 or 100 is something that we just can't Understand. I mean, I you know, I've been in the in the gym watching You know like standing next to a guy who's a major leaguer throwing a bullpen session And that is different when he's you know up there throwing 98. It's like Wow Anyway That's all I've got the Dodgers Padres series is just I love it because it's such a steak and this is what it is It's a stakes game and it's more than even normal playoff stakes Because it's not just a rivalry between two towns two organizations It's like the deep-seated personal hatred that comes from a baseball rivalry of people who play each other 20 times a year and have been fighting in the playoffs every year for a decade and oh It's the good stuff. How are you man?
Sonny00:17:31I'm fine. I'm fine. I like There's there's nothing that interesting going on in my life. I I recently So, you know, I have gardeners here in Texas. We've talked about this before that like it's it's like 50 bucks a week It's great. It's one of the best things one of the best things about living It's like the best money I've ever spent in my life is not having to not having to worry about gardening But we had them put down some Seed the other day because there are a couple of bare patches in the like long story short We got we got the trees trimmed the first year We we moved here and the Sun kind of like burned a hole in the grass where the tree cover had disappeared And I did not do I did not realize this was gonna happen I didn't like water it extra there like I should have but anyway long story short We've had this like naked patch for the last three years now so I finally I finally had the guys come out and put seed down and I have like turned into a Character from king of the hill like you excessively watering it I'm like I'm out there every day for 20 minutes with my with my hose because there's a water shortage So you're not allowed to turn on the sprinklers except on Thursdays and Sundays What happens if you turn on the sprinklers well first you get first you get well? Odds are nothing probably but if they if they discover if somebody snitches you out of somebody rats you out Which people in this neighborhood have done I know because I've gotten one of these you get a lot letter from the city that's like you are violating to water day
JVL00:19:03We water police come after you so there there are there are
Sonny00:19:08There are water police in so anyway but you can but you can water with a with a hose as long as it's not a sprinkler as long as it's just like a hose with a you know of Nozzle at the end of it you're fine, so I go out there for like 20 minutes a day and On flat and just go Moving my hand back and forth I got this great I went to I went to I went to Target and they they have they have these nozzles that like you don't have to pull a trigger It's got like it's like it's got like a fireman's hose. It's like You open them So I just open that up and it goes I stand out there for 20 minutes listening to music or whatever just doing you know wait waiting for everything to be totally soaked and The first day I did this felt like a real idiot and the second day I did this felt like a real idiot and the third day the grass actually started to grow and It now is like it's like it's like one of the before-and-after hair transplant videos you ever see those Yeah, and we're like we're like somebody somebody is like look at my look at my bald head And then they're like now look at my head I was like oh wow look he got the thing and that's what it feels like now It's like a different and this is the other thing about it is that it's a different The grass looks different. It's like finer, you know It's like younger and finer and it's just like this is so basically what I have done is given my Given my yard a hair transplant and it careful when I know it
JVL00:20:41Well, so this is not like being cut
Sonny00:20:44Well, so this is the thing is I think it's supposed to just grow for like a month or so and like the and like Again, we have gardeners. So they are I I have entrusted all this to them
JVL00:20:54Oh, do they have their proper grass certification?
Sonny00:20:57I don't I don't I mean they're the ones who put the seed down. So I assume they know more or less what they're doing But the but like again it the thing I'm I'm worried less about the mowing Though I am worried about that I'm worried less about the mowing than I am about winter frankly I like this is this is the what I really am afraid of that winter is gonna come it's gonna freeze and everything's gonna die And we're gonna go right back to like a mud spot come come springtime so we'll We'll see what we'll see what happens, but I'm out there with my age. Just go dormant in theory, right? Well, that's what grass does in theory. I mean, I'm you know, I I understand how I understand how grass works I'm a I'm a grass man. You're a man of science Turns turns out you put water and Sun together in dirt and seed things grow who knew and that that but I again it's very much like I'm I'm out I'm out there and I've I'm changing the water Settings on the nozzle to make sure I'm getting all the spots, you know, so I can sure I can shoot it The proper distance that way don't I really I don't want to have to get off my porch You know, that's that's my that's anyway, so that's what's going on. I've you know, who says middle age is depressing Drinking my coffee doing my watering doing my crossword puzzle. I'm getting that I'm tell you I'm getting that New York Times crossword puzzle down my friend I'm down. I'm done. I do the Sunday. I do the Sunday one in like three hours now I'm like Bill Clinton. I'm coming for you coming one decade away from feeding the squirrels One decade one of my neighbors saw a gray fox today In their yard, which I have not I've not seen any gray fox. We have a this This is the most depressing part of any of my stories, but we have we have rabbits in our yard and they there's like there's like a little Warren kind of under the Under the fence they go all your rabbits. Well, that's probably what's gonna happen, but it has not happened yet But the but like when I take the dog out there To go to the bathroom the dog has to be on a leash now because you know it got the leg surgery So when I go out there with my dog on its leash nine times out of ten There's a rabbit just eating grass in the backyard. Not the good new grass. Yeah, I mean you would go for that trash trash grass That's if if the if the rabbit was eating the good grass, we'd have real problems. We'd have to kill it I would have to get Well, I would I don't want to say what I would do for fear of incriminating myself in future court proceedings But the but but I go out there with a dog to the backyard And nine times out of ten there's a there's a bunny rabbit out there and it's eating and it's gotten to the point where because it knows the dog is On a leash and can't get it the rabbit just like hops around like it owns the fucking place
JVL00:23:53It just like I would let the Fox kill it
Sonny00:23:57Well, I'm this is this is this is what I fear is that you know, but also I take offense frankly I take offense on my dog's behalf that the the rabbit is so unafraid of my crippled dog
JVL00:24:08Now I'll go off the leash when you're out there
Sonny00:24:10So now I let the dog now I let the dog chase the rabbit a little bit on the leash and it scares the rabbit Away, and if then my dog feels better about itself. I feel better about my dog You know and it's that's that's Anyway, that's what's going on in my life watering watering grass and Not chasing rabbits. That's that's my life now do any bird watching while you were at it there Sonny Maybe do a little birding. I saw I saw red-headed woodpecker the other day showed the kids they were very excited Like woody woodpecker over here. Let's talk about wrestling. Okay. Let's talk about real stuff wrestling Are we gonna do box office Sure, is there a box office? Well, there's the Joker Joker - oh, let's talk about that. Yeah
JVL00:24:54So but this is very bad, right?
Sonny00:24:57so before before last weekend the tracking numbers for Joker to folly a do were soft compared to the first one the first one opened in 93 or 96 million something like that and This one was tracking yet like 65 to 75 basically And then the reviews came in and they were uniformly bad I think this movie is under 30% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes now and Then the Thursday night and Friday night audiences saw it And their reviews were scathing it got a D from CinemaScore Which is the worst score that a comic book movie has ever received. I think the original the first one either got a B or a B-minus. I can't remember so it didn't the first one didn't do well But that didn't change the fact that it was still an enormous hit so you know Joker grossed 350 million dollars something like that in the United States it grossed more than a billion dollars worldwide huge hit huge hit this one Again was tracking It like 65 to 75 million dollars it comes out the the Thursday night previews were Only seven million dollars, which is roughly in line with like Morbius or Captain Marvel Or the Marvels not not the first Captain Marvel the Marvels and it it died it absolutely Died from from Friday to Sunday in a way I have never seen before even with something like Morbius and ended up grossing 37 million dollars which was two million dollars under board Which was a disastrous opening and look it'd be one thing Opening to 37 million dollars would be one thing if this movie cost what it should have cost which is about 60 million dollars What which is about what the last one cross last one cost about 50 60 million dollars this one could this one cost 200 million dollars I don't know what they spent the money on 50 million went to Gaga Phoenix and Todd Phillips the director and I don't know where the rest of the money went because it's not on the screen this movie takes place in like Four drab rooms like the whole movie is is set in like four rooms The musical numbers are totally uninspired like I you know The comparison the comparison point I used in my review was like look I'm not expecting Steven Spielberg's West Side Story here I'm not expecting big sweeping swooping camera moves and all that sort of thing, but I would like something more than just lock down
JVL00:27:30Yeah, he said it was bad so how catastrophic I mean on the other hand it's only 200 million and They didn't put a ton like they didn't spend another 150 million on marketing probably not But
Sonny00:27:45In theory, this is a movie that probably needs about 500 million dollars to break even
JVL00:27:50Marvel's is like the closest comp I can think of because normally when a sequel Dies, it's because like the original movie Overperformed and the truth is people didn't really like it, you know, and that's not true the Joker. I think people liked the Joker it's this is just a
Sonny00:28:13Subversion of audience expectations to a degree which seems pathological. I would say so it's interesting if you go back to 2018-2019 Over a 12-month stretch Over a 12-month stretch We had Aquaman Captain Marvel and Joker right those movies the first Aquaman the first Captain Marvel and the first Joker all came out within a 12-month period in 2018-2019 Aquaman comes out at the end of 2018 Joker comes out at the end in October of 2019 and then and Those movies come those movies each grossed more than a Billion dollars worldwide they combine to grow something like three point three three point four billion dollars worldwide Five years later literally almost exactly five years later over a 12-month stretch You have the sequel to Aquaman the sequel to Captain Marvel and the sequel to Joker come out and those movies will combine to gross Less than a billion dollars like Marvel's I think grossed something like two hundred million dollars worldwide Aquaman did 400 or so this is probably gonna do 250 or so something like that So it's it's it's fascinating there there look there you there are a bunch of different things you could point to here you could Point to sequel fatigue you could point to comic book fatigue. You could point to the fact that these movies came out five years later You know you could you could suggest that audiences didn't like the originals that much, but I don't think that's actually true I think those those movies are fine. What's that? I think it's true of Aquaman. I don't think that's nobody actually likes Aquaman That wasn't that movie was an enormous hit people loved that movie. It was I Baffling to me, but people people loved it. It was big dumb fun people like big dumb fun. I guess who knew and I just I'm like I I've never seen anything like this and the thing is all of those all of those Reasons, I just gave half counters right like Deadpool and Wolverine just came out that movie's gonna gross one point For 1.5 billion dollars worldwide something like that. You know the the That that movie you but had a lag time of four or five years between sequels. I I don't know man I like there's no there's no rhyme or reason here except that like audiences are clearly very tired of That sort of thing and it's gonna be interesting to see how Hollywood pivots. All right. Here's my thesis for you. Sure
JVL00:30:51This Joker sequel is an organizational Problem because in a universe in which Warner was not in flux having just replaced its Executive team and did not have a parent company run by a guy who was obsessed with paring back debt from a disastrous purchase Somebody would have Somebody the executive level would have been strong enough to say no To this script and this idea But this gets greenlit because this is right who who who the two Pam and what's-his-face who show up to take over Warner's film? And this is like the first thing on their desk, which has been greenlit and they've got to decide do we keep it or not? And you know, do they want to have as the first thing they do is Mike DeLuca, right? It's Mike DeLuca and he's got He's got a partner, you know like co-ceos is the first thing they're gonna do Sit to say will it be to say no to a sequel for a billion-dollar movie That has you know Yeah, friendly talent Lady Gaga Joaquin Phoenix and Todd Phillips touch to it And the answer is no because they just showed up at the office five minutes ago Yeah, and they're worried about their position and Zaslav is where I mean, you know, I'm saying like this
Sonny00:32:26Yeah, no, I mean look here's here's I think what what really happened. I think it's even more basic than that. I think The the first Joker was such a bizarre movie to make a billion dollars That nobody had any idea what to do when he came back to them and said all right We'll make another one and it's gonna be a musical and it's gonna be two hundred million dollars because everybody couldn't say no They couldn't they you literally couldn't say no you just you can't you can't say no to that and it's not just because of it's not just because of Success of Joker it's also because Warner Brothers does have an ongoing business relationship with Todd Phillips who has made them a lot of money Over the years. I mean like say what you will about Todd Phillips, but the man You know he the hangover is an enormous hit the hangover 2 was an enormous hit the hangover 3 not so much But you know old school was a pretty big hit road trip did fine for its budget Like it's like the the guy has done very well for himself over the years. He knows under he understands How to make how to make money and like when you when you're faced with something as weirdly sui generis as Joker was It's impossible to it's impossible to look at a script and be like I guess no We don't want another movie from the same team that just made us a billion dollars. I like
JVL00:33:45Well, you could say that the the Joker franchise is still net positive Certainly is on a per movie basis sure
Sonny00:33:55for the Whole is still probably three hundred million dollars in the in the black so You know cuz that's wrestling cheap wrestling wrestling Alright, so we are talking about the new Netflix documentary Mr. McMahon, which is a look at the WWE through the eyes of its I Guess not quite founder, but the the man behind the man behind the success of the whole thing We are doing episodes three and four because we wanted to focus on The Monday Night Wars and the Attitude Era, right? That's that's basically what we what we have here At least at the very least the start of the the Attitude Era the meat of the Attitude Era Which is basically? Let's say 90 We're talking like 92 93 up through about 2001 2002 right is that is that more or less? Yes, we're dealing with here mm-hmm I Watched the first two episodes as well JBL is is is watching those later for a different thing But I I will say so there There are two things to keep in mind here as we talk about this movie the first is that Netflix is in bed with? WWE starting next year. I think with Monday Night Raw is that is that when the the Netflix Monday night?
JVL00:35:23I think so I Think that's when it starts, but they start picking up the streaming service content first I think mm-hmm, so I think that the WWE Network migrates to Netflix sooner than that
Sonny00:35:37I believe I could be wrong so the point here is that Netflix and WWE are kind of in bed So there's some you know keep that in mind as well as you're watching this this series about Vince McMahon the second thing to keep in mind is that they started shooting this in 2021 I think and it was in it. They kept shooting it. They they had another round of interviews scheduled Right after the stories broke about Vince McMahon leaving the company Due to sexual assault allegations, you know He leaves he leaves the company because it turns out WWE has paid out a bunch of settlements on his behalf Then he comes back to the company and he sells it for nine billion dollars to Ari
JVL00:36:28Emanuel right mario manuals they formed TKO sports, right? It's Endeavor
Sonny00:36:33Endeavor, thank you. W William Morris Endeavor, right? That's the yeah And then he leaves again. He's he's out of the he's out of the company again but Not after not until he's made just an enormous amount of money so you keep both of those things in mind that they're there the interviews are being have been commissioned by somebody who is very much in business with the WWE and It kind of straddles the the period of time in which Vince McMahon has been Kind of unceremoniously removed from the company then brought back then removed again All right, keep all that in mind I thought it look I I don't I wouldn't describe the first four episodes of this documentary as damning But they are not They I would not say it goes easy on Vince McMahon You get into this more as the as the show goes along we damning I mean, it's it's totally damning It's pretty rough on him right you you because you were kind of dismissive of this project as we were discussing it that you were Like this is gonna be a total snow job You know But I I think it is put together in such a way that it is It does not go easy on Vince McMahon and it and it I mean there I don't know it it doesn't dwell on a lot of these sexual assault You know human trafficking charges that it could have it could have spent more time on that but as it is just in terms of his business practices and his treatment of his wrestlers and The way the way he kind of carries himself Strikes me as totally damning, right?
JVL00:38:26I mean the extent that it portrays him as a pathological liar. It will frequently have him saying something in an interview like
Mike00:38:35You know, I we never we never had anybody getting you know
JVL00:38:39getting killed or shot or stabbed or raped on the show when he's defending the Attitude Era and we then go through a montage cut of people being raped and fake shot at and fake murdered on It does stuff like that a number of times You know where he's he tries to say one thing and then they just they just show the tape of it, you know and they have interviews from people who Vince is not friends with I mean, that's the other you know, so Brett Brett Hart is interviewed extensively Eric Bischoff is interviewed extensively these people who Vince hates Yeah, and they let them have their say about him yeah, it's it's not I was shocked by how even handed the the Documentary is and shocked by how good it is. Like this is the best This is the best conceived Documentary I've seen on Netflix period the end just in terms of how the episodes are structured So for instance, the the first episode number three is called the screwjob and it begins By telling the story of Wendy Richter and and you know how she lost the women's title, which is a tiny footnote in the history of Modern wrestling and has nothing to do with this era of the WWE except it has everything to do with the ethos of the Montreal Screwjob, which is what it's really about right and again, just the writing of the Documentary to begin this way
Sonny00:40:20It's brilliant. Yeah, so so the episode three is titled screwjob and it is the the idea here is that we're building up to the Montreal Screwjob, which of course was very famously when Bret Hart had his title taken away from him in a in a match that was essentially was called too early without getting into all the nitty-gritty, but like I Let's set aside Let's because I the Montreal Screwjob is actually really interesting to me as a Bret Hart partisan as somebody who like grew up he was my Favorite wrestler growing up. I liked him a lot. I mean law and him and Hogan excellence of execution I mean he was he was just he was great and like he was it whatever like that's neither here nor there I actually am very sympathetic to Vince McMahon side on this one I don't think he cannot be allowed to leave the company as champion that that is a thing that cannot be allowed. I Think he has to give up the title to Shawn Michaels because Shawn Michaels is the you know, the the next guy up Whether or not that had to take place at The Survivor Series in Montreal is a secondary question. That's something that could have maybe been worked out better but I also think that like I I think I think Vince McMahon was totally right to to to Do what he did just not in the way. He did it. Am I wrong? Is that is that I?
JVL00:41:50Basically agree with you. Yeah, I mean in in wrestling one of the mechanisms is that Everyone goes out on their back and what that means is whenever you are exiting a promotion Your job is to lose Because your job is to put somebody over right, right? and so as you leave your last your final act is to put someone else over and Brett didn't want to do that now. I There there are reasons for that but the most interesting thing in all this is That Vince had signed Brett to a 20-year contract Yeah, he did this out of panic because WCW was come and taken a bunch of his, you know, basically raiding his roster and suddenly WCW was out of nowhere winning the ratings Wars and So he signs Brett and then almost immediately realizes that he's made a huge mistake Like you can't this isn't baseball. You can't sign showy Ohtani for 20 years and then defer You know three hundred million dollars at the cell into the future and So he is trying to get out of the contract and so he goes to Brett and basically says look, you know I did write a couple loopholes in so you could take this contract over to WCW and get them to give you more money Yeah So there's there's that but I think Vince was ultimately right for the For the WB. I mean he did what would what needed to be done For the WWE and this is the part about Vince, which is so interesting is that he is a monster and he is a monster who often does things which are gratuitous and not necessary But also sometimes he is able to do the necessary things which only a monster could do
Sonny00:43:49like screwing Bret Hart
JVL00:43:52Yeah, and what ultimately makes Vince unsympathetic isn't something like the Montreal Screwjob It's the amalgamation of all the other times when he does something terrible that he doesn't have to do like for instance Force wrestlers to go out to perform Four minutes after Owen Hart has died while the ring still has his blood in it, right? Right, which is not a necessary and then to Vince Vince Vince sees all of these things as parts of the whole which is I think
Sonny00:44:25Shows that he's a psychopath. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think I I would say he is almost definitionally a sociopath in the sense of like Just not not under I well I don't know I because sociopaths like can't understand other people's feelings and I think he understands people's feelings almost to a fault
JVL00:44:49He just doesn't think they're people they're all NPCs to him. I mean, that's that's the sociopath, right? I mean In his mind the only real people are him and his kids and his kids only kind of right there's like his family is there to still serve him and You know, like he understands why Owen Hart feels a certain way He understands why Hogan feels a certain way or why Shawn Michaels feels a certain way And there are some of these people for who to whom he is good and loyal to Throughout their careers because they can help him, right? and that's the thing like there are there are guys who are Vince partisans because They you know, he Shawn Michaels Shawn Michaels is one of them Michael PS Hayes is one of them. Triple H is a different kettle of fish. I Find Paul to be one of the most fascinating characters in the history of wrestling We could talk about that in a minute if you want. Yeah but You know, I so there's no really rhyme or reason between the people Who will would take a bullet for Vince the way? Stone Cold Steve Austin would or the people who hate him like Brett except that Vince's relation is historical relationship is dictated by Whether or not that person's existence helped him and so stone colds existence helped Vince Which is why Vince was good to him. And so stone cold just well, you know, he's always been good to me Yeah Like it's a I mean, I I have people like that in my life. I'm sure you did, too I mean, I remember you know, Arianna, Huffington. It's always very very nice to me But you know, it was like a monster to everybody else Yeah, and in the world and there, you know, I I did not confuse her being nice to me with her being a good person And I don't think Shawn Michaels does either Shawn is weirdly clear-eyed about all this. Um, I Don't know like some of the things There's a lot of surprising in this one of the things that is surprising to me is how interesting a lot of the wrestlers are it's like Hulk Hogan is Hulk Hogan is fascinating in his own way for a different way by Shawn Michaels and is Fairly introspective and interesting and has interesting things to say so does Triple H and So does Stone Cold? So does The Undertaker? and Bischoff Eric Bischoff is very interesting, you know, but here's the thing I want to Yeah, go ahead. So one of the things that I find fascinating was episode 3 Comes in with Vince's criminal trial for as a steroid peddler. Yes, and The the prosecution star witnesses Hulk Hogan and Hulk gets immunity from from the state and then he gets up on the stand and It is like a fucking scene from Matlock or something where the prosecution, you know begins their their Interview with the friendly witness. It's like so, you know Did Vince McMahon ever ask you to take steroids the Hogan is like, nope, never Never sold steroids. Never sold me steroids. Never told us like did he did he ever intimate? He's like, nope never and The whole it is such a fantastic They're like the fucking gypsies these carnies right and wrestlers are essentially carnies and at this point in time a Hulk and Vince were not friendly like the Hulk had left and gone to WCW Vince was a little bit sore about it because not only because he left and went over there but because he took his gimmick With him which he was allowed to do legally, but Vince didn't like it But the extent to which the feds didn't understand that these carnies always have each other's back and are Never gonna deal with the straights, you know, like it's it's like what was the those the Bradley Cooper? The Bradley Cooper circus with the spook show that movie not the prestige
Sonny00:49:08I know Nightmare Alley Nightmare, right, you know
JVL00:49:11Like even the people within the carnival who hate each other when the straights show up They're all on the same side against the straights and that's what this was with the it's just fascinating
Sonny00:49:21Well, and that's that's a third layer to this documentary. Is that like You can see all of these guys kind of mentally calculating what they feel They can say and what yes what they know they can't and like how much of that has to be Just structurally the the documentary is really interesting to me because the third and fourth episodes hit the moment the the the the through line if we're looking at one between these two episodes for our purposes is it's the moment where Wrestling acknowledges that it's fake. Yes that it becomes sports entertainment it becomes it becomes acknowledging kayfabe and kind of reveling in the idea of the smart mark and you know understanding that You are dealing with people who understand that you're telling a story that it's acting blah blah blah And that is that is fascinating it is it's a huge sea change in how the sport works how it operates How the entertainment side of it works how it operates how the TV side of it works and operates I mean My favorite part in this my favorite part in the in the Monday Night Wars episode is where Eric Bischoff is running through the results That are going on on the Monday Night Raw show that's happening taped while they're live, which is just you know Hilarious yeah
JVL00:50:42It's uh in it. I mean again because these guys are carnies. There was a huge amount of a Huge amount of backlash within the business right to this But it all happens as so many of these things do almost by accident so the the breaking of kayfabe begins with this seemingly innocuous, but ultimately like really really Titanic event which is that Scott Hall and Kevin Nash are leaving the WWF They are best friends with Triple H and Shawn Michaels They they are called the click and this is something that everybody In wrestling knows even though it has never appeared on stage So the idea that these four guys are a click is a no kayfabe idea if that makes sense, right? And so it's something that people who follow wrestling knew that the four of them were close together Even though on stage they never had a friendship or anything like that And on the night the last night for Hall and Nash Triple-h goes to Vince and says hey at the end of the show. Can I do something for them? And Vince is just like yeah, sure. It's a house show which means no TV and Because it's not on TV Vince thinks well we could just do this and nobody will know and at the end of the show the four of them come out and hug together and it's like a very simple valedictory thing and the crowd goes fucking wild and This reverberates I mean it instantly this is pre-internet, but it rockets All around the wrestling world holy shit look what these guys just did well
Sonny00:52:29It's pre it's pre social media pre so but it is but it is like this is like all over the bulletin boards, right?
JVL00:52:35This is all over the BBS at the PW torch at pro wrestling torch the website, right? This is you know, can you believe they did this but and Vince gets really really pissed about it But then realizes how much heat is is generated because the Burberry's that I mean at the next show the crowds are still furious with Triple H and Shawn they're yelling at him and stuff and this is like Oppenheimer discovered like, you know, I'm saying it's like the the click embracing becomes like the Trinity test And they're like, holy shit We can just use reality Like we don't we can get rid of the kayfabe stuff and that itself becomes an angle
Sonny00:53:23and this was And this was the beauty. This is what Eric Bischoff realized. This was the beauty of the real I mean this was what made the Monday Night Wars work because it did feel like when Hall and Nash show up on Monday Nitro. It's like wait, are they wait? They were just last week on raw. Are they are they there? Like is it like a real fight? Are they are they there on behest of?
JVL00:53:49McMahon what's going on? Yeah, and all of this. I mean that what all of this Leads up to and the reason the series is called. Mr. McMahon is that it leads up to Vince eventually becoming an On carrot an on-screen character who becomes the company's central heel Which is again, it's kayfabe sure But it's also non kayfabe because Vince is the actual Heel in history, right? And so the there's this interlocking reality with unreality and it it's fascinating and it's There's I mean, there's there's so many layers in here. There's like the layers of how good competition is for wrestling I mean wrestling is in a very fallow period right now, and it's because there is no real competition The WWE is out of real hard time adjusting to the post stone-cold Post rock era and you know, they've they had Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns and they got by with Brock Lesnar for a little while But he was already pretty old and they just haven't been able to manufacture new stars in the way that they used to And it's you know ratings have fallen off because of that, you know, they made it through the pandemic but Yeah, it's it's been a little touch-and-go. Yeah, and I don't know like Bischoff is a fascinating guy Right. Did you did you enjoy Bischoff's country? Oh, he's great. Yeah, it's funny
Sonny00:55:24When he would when the first time he showed up I paused it I turned to my wife who was watching with me I was like, you know, he used to say it's true. He used to retweet free beacon stuff all the time you really huge apparently a huge right winger like a like he was it was I was like the first time it happened I Was like, oh that's weird. But then it was constantly it was like him sending out links to free beacons
JVL00:55:45I was like, oh, that's that's all huge right wingers. Yes the exception of I mean Vince is very close with with Trump His wife served in Trump cabinet and the only one who's not is Brian what's-his-face and the yes guy. Sorry, I'm blanking though Wait, what Brian Danielson Daniel Brian? Sorry Brian. Yeah. He he is a Bernie guy. He's like a Bernie, bro. Yeah It's a The whole thing is fascinating and the degree to which Vince is Both This is what I've you know, there's a there's a line in Well, whatever it's there's a line in the Dark Knight the not not the movie but the Frank Miller series where Jim Gordon you get it you're getting a Jim Gordon monologue and he's saying how You know, there's this conspiracy theory about FDR that he knew about Pearl Harbor and he deliberately let it happen Because he knew that that was the only thing that could get America into the war and that it was The critical importance was that America needed to be in the war Yeah, he said, you know, these sorts of things are too big to judge, you know, a guy like FDR is just too big to judge That isn't quite true of McMahon but within the universe of professional wrestling McMahon becomes too big to judge Because he is the entire thing in ways that there is no other analog I can think of like I I just can't think of Because it's not a business like Car making we could say like what Henry Ford was the auto industry like he sort of was until he wasn't this is performance This is this is like a guy who owns all of the the theaters and owns all of the actors
Sonny00:57:48I was all of the writers. I was gonna say the the the purest equivalent is the Early moguls, but even then you had like four or five of them, you know, it was one is PT Barnum
JVL00:58:00and the surface I Mean that that's really the clearest equivalent like, you know, he Barnum was the circus and McMahon is wrestling and Once you understand that you it becomes harder to judge him within that universe I think and and that is why I think so many people within wrestling even When they hate McMahon, they almost all wind up making their peace with them Well, and that's late in their careers. They almost always make their peace with them And I think that's why I think because they come to that conclusion like Vince is just too big to judge
Sonny00:58:38Yeah, I mean they like you see a every everyone who said they would never work for Vince McMahon like even sting You know winds up on WWE for for a few years. Yeah
JVL00:58:49Once I Triple H. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No. No, I am there there there are
Sonny00:58:54interesting there are interesting omissions in terms of like who gets who gets Talking time and who doesn't I mean like there's been no real discussion like in the in the documentary There's at least so far. There's been no real discussion of like Ric Flair Or like any of really any of like the big WCW names, which again makes some sense because it's it's a WWE focused documentary But there there definitely are But also there you know why there's another big gaping holes because so many of these guys are fucking dead like macho man not around Eddie Guerrero, I think the next so we're we watched through episode four I think the next step so either the fifth or the sixth episode is the Chris Benoit episode and that's gonna be Because that's a that's a that's a tough one But I mean just like so many so many of these guys are just like it's amazing that Hulk Hogan is still alive Like every time I see Hulk Hogan. I'm like I cannot believe he He's the one who is still
JVL00:59:56You know so much of why Hogan is what he is. It's not just that he Won the present by being like the biggest star and the guy who crossed wrestling over to mainstream But also that he is like almost uniquely among his peer set the guy who lived Just through sheer luck
Sonny01:00:18It's a it's a it's a whatever whatever deal with the devil he made is He's he's getting his mo. He's getting his all out of it
JVL01:00:27It is funny though the extent to which these big muscular guys are not at all like They're not at all like soldiers or NFL players. They really are like actors or Or carnies, you know like that's their they're closer Closer practice me. They're thinking they're always thinking about show business and angles and stuff like that Alright so can we talk about Triple H little yeah? Triple-h has long fascinated me and he is Clearly very bright He like many of like most of these guys most of the guys who succeed in wrestling are guys who have wanted to be in Pro wrestling since they were kids like this is they're very few pro wrestlers who? Do something else and then when they're 25 decide hey, maybe I'll try wrestling as a career Like that's just not how it works They are the equivalent of whatever the professional wrestling equivalent of a theater kid It is that's what they are. They're doing backyard wrestling from the time. They're you know, knee-high to a cow patty or whatever and Triple H is one of those and he comes to the business And it's pretty clear he's an operator, you know, he's not a very good wrestler like he's an okay wrestler He's an okay talker He's clearly a great hang like he's a guy that people like to hang out, but he understands the power structure more clearly than anybody and unlike everybody else in the business he Believes that he can maneuver within the power structure and he doesn't have to simply accept it and the power structure is this Vince is God and The only other people who matter are his kids Right, you know nobody nobody else, you know, no matter how long you've been with the company you could you Could have been the company for 50 years at the end of the day The kids are gonna take over someday like that's you know, it's just it's a family business and that's what it is in Triple H Winds up Marrying into the family, right? Which is funny enough on its own except that the way he marries into the family is That he there is a storyline. So the McMahon family has become characters Stephanie McMahon is in a storyline in which she is engaged to one of the other wrestlers I believe who is now dead test him And but the writers don't really have an end for this story Like they're just sort of playing out the string and Triple H comes to Vince and says I have an idea on how to put a button on this and they're like, what is it like so what if I Kidnap and rape Stephanie and I marry her While she's unconscious at like one of these Vegas drive-by chapel things and they're like that sounds like a great idea. Let's try So they do this storyline and the pop is enormous and what's interesting about it is that Stephanie Becomes the villain so the crowd sees the idea that she has been Drugged kidnapped raped and married against her will but because the guy she is Was was engaged to was test who was a face They the crowd clings to the face and then this becomes her heel turn and so she's a heel She's now kayfabe married to Triple H and he then you know sort of his heel heat goes from like this much to to the moon and Now that the two of them are hanging out all the time because they're working all the time They start dating And eventually he marries in real life the woman who he kayfabe tricked into Mary and Because of that Triple H winds up becoming the second most powerful guy in the company, right?
Sonny01:04:40He's he is still I think that she content officer. He's still I think he's like a story basically
JVL01:04:46He is now the most powerful with Vince gone. But even while Vince was there Triple H became basically in this it was like Mohammed bin Salman and King Abdullah in Saudi Arabia But Triple H was the crown prince who who is basically in charge whenever Vince was out to lunch, you know which has been a lot and I I find this so fascinating and I'm sure Paul and Stephanie have an actual Relationship and great marriage and a beautiful family and all that but on the other hand like That dude was always going to find a way. Yeah into the power structure and And he's good at it. That's the other thing like he's not bad at his job. He's very good at his job Yeah, and you know, he understands wrestling in at the deeper most Spiritual level in ways that nobody other than Vince Understands and so I actually think Paul Triple H is the natural heir To the extent that you could have an heir. He's the guy to have it because he gets wrestling. Yeah And this is the you know Wrestling is such a weird thing because it's all about the relationship of the play to the audience You know, it's it's like imagine a play because that's what it is like theater But it's theater where the audience is reacting in real time And so the show can change itself Like imagine the show wasn't a script that everybody had to hold on to you could just improv the entire performance to see you know lean Into whatever works well with the audience and that's what wrestling is. Yeah Yeah, but told across, you know, like 10 or 12 hours of programming a week 52 weeks a year. Yeah
Sonny01:06:35No, I he's he's fascinating. It's funny You mentioned how like how well-spoken all these guys are and some of them are, you know Have got taken different paths to get there I think which is like, you know, Shawn Michaels was a addict who got clean and found God. That's that's literally what he did Yeah, got into yoga and stuff Triple H obviously is just like very kind of keenly intuitive The the biggest surprise me honestly a Shane McMahon who like comes across a like again I I only really know him from you know His character who was always kind of buffoonish and he's just like it's like kind of a normal smart guy
JVL01:07:16But I don't know interesting in the way like, you know He was basically thrown out of the family business in a very like Murdock Ian way. I don't know if You remember the the Burdock family succession drama. Yeah, but there was a time at which like Lachlan was kicked out because his sister or his sister was maybe was the sitter was kicked out but it was one of these like Rupert made a decision about who the who the air was gonna be and like two other kids like left and That happened when Vince basically chose Stephanie, right? Because he had Triple H And anyway, also Vince wanted the Triple H thing to happen is the other Thing like Vince is the one who was saying to Stephanie, you know, it's how you ought to get married It's time to settle down. You have a guy like Triple H The whole thing is crazy, I think Stephanie's fascinating too, I think Stephanie McMahon is again a very smart and interesting Person and like worth listening to and hearing but they're all you know, I I think He's the Vince is the only one who is a total sociopath in this like Most of their figures are interesting and flawed and some are good guys and some are bad guys, but none of them are like None of them are like neutral evil
Sonny01:08:35But Vince is is he neutral evil or chaotic evil, I feel like he's pretty close to chaotic evil I don't know or maybe he plays chaotic chaotic evil, but is actually neutral evil. I think that's probably it. Yeah
JVL01:08:49he's a Everything about this this documentary Is so much better than I thought it could possibly be
Sonny01:08:57yeah, I'm glad you're enjoying it because you were you were pretty skeptical and like I do think look I I think there has been a little bit of kayfabe in the You know like there's been stories about like Vince McMahon is unhappy with this documentary He wants to re-edit it to you know, I think I think there's a little bit of that there I can't imagine he actually although again. I haven't seen the last two episodes So who knows maybe maybe things really go off the rails for him in this in this these last couple hours here
JVL01:09:23Um, but what he looks like living death
Sonny01:09:27Well, he looks he looks old. He looks old and worked on
JVL01:09:32It's the work done. That's the thing. He looks like somebody who has tried desperately to resist aging and has finally lost
Sonny01:09:40Yeah, right and that's the worst kind of old I think now he looks he looks old and worked on is what he looks like
JVL01:09:47It's uh, you know, I gotta confess. I never liked the mr. McMahon character and I started tuning out of wrestling Basically after WWE won the Monday Night Wars Say because they win the Monday Night Wars. They collapse WCW and WWE into essentially the same the same promotion and It was just like shit at that point. I mean it wasn't but I didn't like it I preferred WCW during the Monday Night Wars for the most part at least during the NWO portions, you know, um Once once they fell together in the promotion got so focused on the mr. McMahon character Well, the NWO was the NWO was
Sonny01:10:33Catastrophically successful in the sense that like the NWO destroyed WCW WWE didn't destroy WCW
JVL01:10:40The NWO destroyed WCW which is funny because kayfabe. That's what the NWO came to do Yeah, and it succeeded non kayfabe. Yeah, right. This is again. It's the Grieving of reality and unreality. I was also very happy to see David Shoemaker show up in this documentary David Shoemaker who most people know as the masked man Which is what he write under when he wrote dead wrestler of the week, which is one of these early internet columns which became a sensation and He wrote a really really good history of wrestling and called life and death in the squared circle and I think he's become basically like pro-wrestling's Norman Mailer I mean, he's not like a misogynist asshole like Norman Mailer But he is like the most serious writer in the world of professional wrestling and he's great. Yeah
Sonny01:11:36And this is a this is a ringer co-production, right? So he is at the ringer Oh, is this a co-production? I don't think I realized that. Yeah, Bill Simmons is a executive producer on it
JVL01:11:46That's uh, that's really good. It's maybe that's why it's so good because they have Shoemaker helping to write it. Yeah Man What a what a cool thing. All right. Did you have any any favorite bits in it? Any any things that we didn't?
Sonny01:11:59No, no, I think it's the whole thing is just I mean, it's just it's just real interesting and it's it's like And it's it's funny too because again you can kind of see where they're Skipping over some things and like kind of getting to you know Either who they had access to or the story that the stories that they want to want to tell But it's you know, I I think it's I think it's really I think it's really well done. It's really interesting I think it is fairly damning of Vince McMahon in as in so far as anything like this can be damning To him or of him or you know, it could have been more damning
JVL01:12:39That's like the the worst you could say of it is that it could have been more than for instance They do not talk about how he kept a series of special dildos in his office that he used on his various Paramours isn't the right word for it like victims some of whom were willing some of whom seem to be unwilling but you know the the the number of women who he had Sex with variously and that these dildos were named after his wrestlers. Yeah
Sonny01:13:12There was a we might we might still get there there So, all right, I Don't know. That's it. That's it for this week's episode to go to the patreon Etc. Etc. We got we're running very long here. So
JVL01:13:34So who are they named after the name ever come all of the Ugandan a giant obviously the rock
Sonny01:13:40The the funniest I so this is again. It's one of the things that like that is kind of glossed over Maybe there's gonna be more of it in the next few episodes here But I remember I watching the watching the early part of the rocks career Was fascinating where he's like he's rocky my via look at he's friendly and he's running around his colorful He's like oh, I'm doing my dances and and then it's like oh now. He's a Black Panther now He's joined the Black Panthers. He's part of Farooq's nation of domination and like I remember that too I was like oh yeah the nation of domination boo those guys suck And then he become then he becomes the rock then he becomes like the guy And it was just it was and this is about the time that I stopped watching frankly it was like When he when the rock became the rock it not because it was the rock just because like that's when My interest started started to wane, but like it was it was again It was fascinating because they kept they really wanted this guy to work It was clear he had the skills and the talent and nothing was working and nothing was working And then he and then he does work, and this was the other interesting thing is I kept thinking while They were talking about the shift to the kind of attitude they never used this word, but the shift to the antihero era of Wrestling right where with guys where where it's not it's not you don't have just you know black hats face versus good and bad It's heel versus other heel right it's you have like antiheroes stone-cold Steve Austin as an antihero He is like but it's so funny because it's so perfectly mirrors the same exact thing that was happening in comic books at the same exact time from my culture and movies and like it was like this was this was 100% like every every every element of the culture that was designed to appeal to like 18 to 34 year old men from like 1994 to you know 2000 and whatever I mean we're still kind of in it frankly is like Good and bad passe concepts antiheroes the antihero is where it's at
JVL01:15:45That's where that's what the universe wants one of David Shoemaker's great insights is that professional wrestling is A mirror to American culture and always has been yeah Yep Sure, it's fine
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