#249. 'Challengers'
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The main event is Luca Guadagnino's tennis-threesome drama Challengers, and Sonny likes it a lot without loving it, praising it as the rare tennis movie to nail the sport's mental game and comparing Zendaya's Tashi to Lady Macbeth and Sharon Stone's Catherine Trammell from Basic Instinct. JVL loves it as much as The Iron Claw, reading it less as a tennis movie than a thriller about a figurative serial killer, and raves about Zendaya's subtle, shape-shifting performance and the film's meticulous Chekhov's-gun plotting — the cracked phone screen, the Into the Spider-Verse theme bleeding through a hotel-room speaker, the climactic serve. Mike calls it "the horniest movie ever made," zeroes in on the none-too-subtle gay tension between Art and Patrick, and pronounces the whole thing "a little much," while also grousing about loose threads like whether the daughter is actually Patrick's and who wins the deciding match. Before the review, the trio run through their usual long open: JVL recounts being recognized by a fan in a Philadelphia parking-garage elevator after a live show, Sonny relates a near-road-rage incident with a driver who illegally cut across a baffling four-way intersection near his house, and Mike tells an extended bachelor-party story about a friend's suitcase getting turned away at a Myrtle Beach movie theater until Mike heroically talked the manager into stashing it in a back room so his buddy could go watch Dune: Part Two while Mike caught Challengers. They also dig into the film's surprisingly large $55 million budget against a so-so $15 million opening weekend and debate whether its 1980s-to-2000s time jumps read as convincingly different eras. The episode wraps with an abortive attempt at a Nadal/Federer/Djokovic fuck-marry-kill.
From the show notes
Seriously, though, the tennis is sexy.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00What are you gonna do now? Unfortunately, my only skill in life is hitting a ball with a racket. I want you to be my coach. I want you to be my coach. How often does this happen? Going after the same girl? Come here. Which one of us?
Mike00:00:30Welcome to the Sub-Beacon Podcast. I'm your co-host Mike Warren. I'm joined as always by my two co-hosts who have been working on their backstrokes, knocking a few balls around and going deep. Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Join us over at Sub-Beacon.com where you can become a patron. Get new episodes every Friday afternoon. Comment, become a part of the Sub-Beacon community. Tell your friends and family. That they can only do that at Sub-Beacon.com. We are going to be talking about challengers later in the show. But first, JVL, what is going on with you, my man?
JVL00:01:13I barely anything. I got home from Philly last night at 12:30. And because we had a live show in Philly and I drove back and I'm going to somebody else.
Sonny00:01:24Sonny question. Question. Did you have to grease the poles outside of the venue? Before you guys started. So people didn't come thrashing out of the theater and start climbing them and tearing them down.
Mike00:01:37Whether they liked what you had to say or hated what you were going to climb poles.
JVL00:01:41It was, you know, so we got there. I brought flash and favorite with me and we got there at like three. And we parked in a parking garage and walk over the elevator in the parking garage. And there are two other people there. And this woman turns around. She goes. Oh, it's JVL. How are you? My kids looked at each other like what madness is this? And so that's about the size of it. Yeah. Our people are very our people are great.
Mike00:02:12All right. Sonny, what's going on with you since JVL has nothing but but but greasy poles and I.
Sonny00:02:19So I have this is this is going to be I'm going to try to keep this very short because it's it's dumb and reveals me to be a psychopath. Probably. But so I more Apple talk. No, no. But we could do. I say you guys the the price of app honey crisp apples for a dollar forty nine a pound. That's a steal. This is this is I'm living in paradise.
JVL00:02:44Mealy honey crisps. No, they were.
Sonny00:02:46They were Chris. They were really honey crisp. That's an oxymoron.
Mike00:02:50You get it.
Sonny00:02:51If you get a you get you can get a bad batch of apples. There's nothing worse than a mealy apple. Like you got to get a worst crisp apple. If I if I bite into a mealy apple, I die. I just spit it out and throw it away. I find that I find the target boy who sold it to me and I shove it in his face. I'm like, this is not a quality apple. Do it right. I know. But so I was I have to set the scene here a little bit. There's a four way intersection near my house where two of the two of the stops are like pretty big, busy road, like six lane, three lanes each way. And then one of the streets coming out is like a side. It's not quite a side street. It's slightly bigger than that. It's like two lanes each way. It's four lanes total. And then the fourth entry into this four way stop is out of a shopping center. It's out of a shopping center. Okay. Like, I mean, directly out of a shopping center, not like a little street out of a shopping center. It's like you pull out of the parking lot of the shopping center and you're in. But it's part of the four way stop.
Mike00:03:50It's a four way stop, meaning a stop sign.
Sonny00:03:52Four way stop light. Four way stop light.
Mike00:03:54Stop light.
Sonny00:03:55Okay. But the. All right. So the big main intersection is pretty straightforward. People understand, like, you know, the rules of stopping and going, you know, whatever. But the the other the other two lanes again, which is like it's an exit coming out of this little shopping center and like a four lane road get very complicated for people very quickly, in part because the way that the the main bigger road is set up is that there is the most bizarre traffic pattern I've ever seen. It's got it's two lanes that becomes three at the stoplight with a left hand turn lane. But from the middle lane, from the middle lane, you can turn left or go straight or go right. What? And the right hand lane is right turn only. So there's like a left lane that's left turn only right lane that's right turn only. And then the middle lane is got a fleur de lis in the middle. The middle lane is you go the middle lane is choose your own adventure. You go wherever the fuck you want from this middle lane. And I know that this is a complicated setup because I myself have been in this lane trying to make a left hand turn. And having to yield to the people coming out of the shopping center who are going straight. Right. So, like, if you're making a left and you don't have the left green arrow, you have to yield to the people coming straight. So I know that I know I know that this is complicated. Right. I understand. I just describing it to you. It sounds very complicated. Does it not?
Mike00:05:19I need a I need a visual.
Sonny00:05:20I'll send I'll send you guys I'll send you guys a picture after. So you can see you can see it. So I know that this is complicated. And when I am pulling out when I am going straight out of. The shopping center out of, again, the small the kind of like a nubbin part of this for for stop sequence for light sequence. I understand that even though I have the right of way because I have the green light to go straight, people will make a left hand turn. They're thinking they have the right of way because that's just how humanity operates. So when I am at the stoplight, I I often will enter it slowly because I know that somebody is going to. Illegally turn in front of me. And sure enough, I'm coming out of this intersection the other day and I see somebody coming to make the left turn and I just slow down ahead of time because this lady is in a fucking expedition or whatever. She's hitting this intersection at 25 miles an hour. She's not stopping. I'm just like, whatever, I'm going to stop. I'm just I'm just going to slow down as I enter the intersection because I know what's going to happen here. If I don't, I'm going to get fucking T-boned by this lady. Sure. So I slow down and sure enough. Insurance money. She. I got to be honest.
JVL00:06:31I'm like, since she's got the wrong way there and you have the right of way, I would never
Sonny00:06:37do this. Future listeners in the courts. However, if I ever decide that I need a new car, this is where I'm going to drive around
JVL00:06:46over and over in a circle to this intersection until somebody T-bones you loop around this
Sonny00:06:51intersection. But the but so I know I know what's going to happen here. I'm going to get fucking killed by this lady if I don't stop. So I I stop. I slow down and stop. Okay. And as she's barreling through it, she like kind of hits on her brakes like she's. Oh, and then like speeds up to go through it and gives me the universal. What are you doing? Look, and guys, I have never chased her down. I have never more wanted. I have never in my life been filled with this kind of road rage. I wanted to chase her down and like pull in front of her and turn my car sideways and pull her out of the car and drag her back and show her you see this for I have the fucking right of way here. You stupid cow. And like the thing is, I know. I know what's going to happen in that light. That's why I take that intersection extremely carefully. I know from experience that that left hand turns tricky for people. They don't understand that they don't have the right of way here. But there is nothing that drives me crazier than people getting incorrectly indignant about their driving. I am. I was. Guys, I was. I was up to here.
JVL00:07:56I was. Russell Crowe. Russell Crowe movie.
Sonny00:07:59Unhinged. Yes, that was me. I was unhinged. I was. I'm going to go put on my fat suit and I'm going to chase that woman down. Oh, God. I believe. Oh, man.
Mike00:08:10I believe, according to Texas law, you would have been well within your rights to shoot a chaser to do exactly that.
JVL00:08:16Isn't there a stand your grounds at least some sort of castle doctrine for your car in Texas? I would. The Alamo doctrine.
Sonny00:08:24I would assume so. If you have a come and take it sticker on your mola mola.
JVL00:08:28As long as you have the come and take it sticker.
Sonny00:08:29If you have the come and take it sticker on your bumper, you can do whatever you want. That's my that's my understanding. No, but I like it just it just it makes me like again, flames on the side of my face mad. I was I was so and again, it's not like I understand. I knew I knew she didn't have any idea what she was doing. I knew going into this, but it's the it's her reaction. It's her reaction to not knowing what she's doing that makes me angry.
Mike00:08:57It's it's bad.
JVL00:08:58Karen.
Mike00:08:59It's bad enough. No, I'm with Sonny on this. It's bad enough when when the driver does not have the self-awareness to know that she's doing wrong. And then you elevate it with the sort of the anti self-awareness to think that the person who just saved you is the asshole in the situation. No, it's great.
JVL00:09:22Especially because in my experience, my living experience, I'm a pretty good driver. Uh, but on the handful of occasions in which I have been thoroughly in the wrong and somebody is like, you know, lean on their horn because legally they've stopped us from getting to an accident. Like if I pull up next to him in a stoplight and I'm rolling down the window and I'm like, Hey, I'm so sorry about that. I, I just like, Hey, you know what the, the universal reaction is always the universal reaction is always, Hey, don't worry about it, man. Yeah. Like this is, people just want you to acknowledge that's all they want is for you to acknowledge that like, Hey, you made a mistake and that's fine. You spent thousands of hours of your life. You spent thousands of hours of your life driving in the car. You're going to make a couple of mistakes. Just, just acknowledge them.
Mike00:10:02That's all. This is the road version of when somebody angrily emails you for something that they didn't like that you wrote or said. And it's, uh, you know, expletive filled and angry and insulting. And if you respond with a kind of, um, thank you for reading. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I would say eight times out of 10. They were, oh my, I had no idea anybody was going to read this.
Sonny00:10:28I'm so sorry. 100%. Yeah. It's amazing. It's if it responding politely to people who are mad at you is like the biggest cheat code there is. It's a power move. But so I, in this, in this vein, so like I remember once a years ago, 10 to 15 years ago, I, my, my was driving a 1988 Volvo two 40 DL, uh, great car. Love that. Love that car last. But, uh, I was driving it and there was a weird thing happening. The brakes, I would hit the brakes and a warning light would come on about the, the, uh, whatever warning light says your, your lights aren't working would, would pop up on the dashboard. And then, but then I'd hit the brakes again and it would go away and I was like, oh, that's, that's weird. I don't understand what's, what's happening here. This, this doesn't make any sense to me. So I'm like driving, I'm driving on 95, you know, I'm driving on 95 and stop and go traffic. And like this light comes on, it goes off and it doesn't come on. For a while. Then it comes on again and goes off. And I'm just like, what is, what, what is happening here? And a guy, a guy comes up, uh, a guy comes up beside me on, on the road and like rolls his window down a, and he looks over at me and he says, get the fucking brake lights fixed on that piece of shit. And I was just like, oh, thanks man. Thanks. I actually didn't, I didn't realize they were out. I, I had no idea I, and I was like, I was like, oh, uh, thanks. I thank you for the information. Kind, sir. You're fucking welcome. He did not. He did not. He did not thank me. He drove away fast after that. He was not, he was not happy, but I like, don't blame him. I don't blame him for being mad. I'm like doing, I'm doing like stop and go traffic on nine 95 without brake lights. I'm lucky. I didn't get wow. I knew something was wrong. I did know something was wrong because that light was like, it was coming on, but I didn't understand. I didn't, I like, it wasn't staying on. So I didn't know what it meant.
Mike00:12:20It's a little odd. Like Volvo. This was a Volvo, right? I mean, this is the safest, the safest car. Yeah. Ever made. That doesn't have like a more explicit way of warning this.
Sonny00:12:30I mean, again, it said like break light out or something like it said something to that effect, but because it kept going off, I didn't, I couldn't see what it said.
JVL00:12:37You would need, if it was gotten the manual out and look to see where on the dashboard display. Oh, that's the break. It turned out.
Sonny00:12:44It actually turned out. It turned, it turned out not to yes. Brick and lighten, brick and lighten, no working. The, uh, it turns out it turns out it wasn't actually the light. It was the fuse. I had to replace.
JVL00:13:00Yeah.
Sonny00:13:01Anyway. So long story short, I, I, uh, had an interesting experience on the road this week and it filled me with blinding.
JVL00:13:08Well, listen, uh, for no reason, I would just say that, uh, if you ever do need a new car before you should get a dash cam, because if you have a dash cam, when you hop into this intersection and somebody who does not have the right of way, T-bones you, that's an open and shut case for insurance.
Mike00:13:26Yeah. It's also, also the, the, uh, uh, the beginning of that, I would ever do the beginning of an online, uh, you know, of a, of a YouTube channel, uh, you know, content farm, get that dash cam.
Sonny00:13:37Um, I should just, I should, I should actually, that would actually be a very funny, uh, uh, channel is just me driving through this intersection a hundred times a day, almost getting hit eventually getting hit. I'd have to buy some like really cheap cars.
JVL00:13:50I just get like a series of really expensive cars.
?00:13:55That's the other thing.
JVL00:13:56Right? You gotta make sure you break and let them go. If they're driving a Pinto and you gotta wait for the Acura, the Mercedes to, to, I gotta,
Sonny00:14:03I gotta wait for the, well, I gotta wait for the endless parade of enormous white SUVs in my neighborhood. Oh yeah. That's like the official, it's the official house mom car of Texas is like Karen's the, the enormous white Escalade or expedition or BMW like X six. Like these are, these are, this is what everyone around me drives. It's amazing.
Mike00:14:25I've taken all the kids to football practice. Um, Michael, how are you buddy? I am fine. I'm I've got a couple things. I don't know. I don't know what this is. Just give me scatter shots. So, so I was, I was telling Sonny before, uh, in the, in the green room, as it were, um, I spent the last weekend at a bachelor party and it's sort of the second to last one for my group of friends, um, all the rest of whom are married and had been married for awhile. And, um, and so. And so it was, uh, it was great. Uh, we were just all on the beach in South Carolina and, uh, it was very enjoyable. And when we're at the point and we're at the age where like it, you know, th there's not a lot of activity and the activity that there is, is like, you know, golfing, cuz this is, you know, this is South Carolina in, in April and, um, and that's what a lot of people want to do. Otherwise it's just sitting on the beach and drinking beer and all of that fun stuff. So it was a good time. And it was just, um, it. It, it, it was going at the speed that I've always kind of wanted for like a hangout. No, oh no, no, there were, there were no, there was, I thought this was going to take
JVL00:15:35a turn.
Sonny00:15:36All of a sudden I woke up and we were in Reno and there was a dead stripper guys ever seen that movie. Very bad things.
JVL00:15:45No, no, I haven't. No.
Sonny00:15:47Okay. All right. All right.
JVL00:15:50All right. Um, is that the Emma? That joke doesn't work.
Sonny00:15:53Emma, not Emma Watson, the Emma stone movie. No, it's the, it's the, I can't remember who the director is. Oh, I'm so glad you brought it up Sonny Christian, Christian Slater stars in and they, oh yeah,
Mike00:16:02yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Okay. No, no, none of that happened. But, um, but you know, it is like, like it's near Myrtle beach where we were and Myrtle dirty Myrtle is its own, its own, um, thing. So, but no, but what I was going to say is the, um, I had an interesting experience at the end on the last day as we are all, many are driving. Yeah. Back to where they live. Some are flying. Some flew out early. And, um, my friend and I, uh, my, my friend is drew, I've mentioned him before on the show. He's a listener to the show. Um, I drew, he asked for a shout out. So there you are drew, um, so we are, we have late later flights. And so we're going, what should we do? Like, Hey, let's go see a movie and I go, oh, I have, I have to see a movie for, for my show. So, uh, that I texted you guys on Sunday morning, just double checking. What we were going to be watching, saw that it was, there's a movie theater right next to the airport. Um, the timing works out perfectly so that I can watch the movie, get the Uber to the airport, walk on, uh, walk into the, uh, to the gate and on the plane. And, um, wanted to see if he wanted to, uh, watch this movie with me. Uh, and he said, well, what is challengers? And I showed him the trailer on my phone and he watched the whole trailer. And he, uh, he just said, I think I'm going to watch Dune two again. Um, so that was his reaction. But the thing I wanted to mention was that we go to this movie theater, which is in like a old shopping mall in Myrtle beach and we show up and I've just got a bag to get on the plane with, but he's got a suitcase and we get up to the box office. This place is like empty, by the way, it is like not in season yet.
JVL00:17:52Do they make him buy a ticket for his suitcase?
Mike00:17:54No, no, no. So listen, so we go up and we're, we're getting our tickets for our movies and the old lady at the box office goes, Oh, I'm sorry. You're not going to be able to bring that suitcase in. And he's like, do I need to buy? He thought the same thing you did. Should I buy it? He's like, I'll buy another ticket for it. So it can sit on the seat next to me. Exactly. And she goes, I'm so sorry.
Sonny00:18:22Sorry. It's just our corporate policy.
Mike00:18:25I just can't do it. Yeah. I was like, yeah, it's a chain. Oh, what chain was it? It was a Cinemark. And, and, and she had this kind of look of like, I'm really sorry. And she even said, we're so close to the airport. You know, it would make sense to bring for people to bring their bags here before they go. But, and so we're just sitting there and I'm like, Oh, Hey, let's just, let's go, let's go get something to eat. Let's go get a beer at the airport and for a few hours and just hang out. And he's like, no, you go see your movie. I'll figure out what to do. So, so I did. And I walked in and I just had a, like a weird feeling about the whole thing. It just doesn't make any sense. There are like more people who work there than actual moviegoers at this point in the, in the morning on a Sunday morning. And so I asked the lady at the concession counter, I said, do you have a, like, is your manager here? Can I ask a question? And the manager is like 10 years younger than me. And it's the Simpsons kid. Totally. Hi, there. What can I help you with a little movie theater? And I said, I said, listen, I got a buddy who's got a suitcase. And the old lady at the box office said, he can't bring it in. Is there a way he could buy it?
Sonny00:19:43That old bat.
Mike00:19:45Could he buy a ticket and, and bring the suitcase? He went, the manager said, yeah, sure. We'll do it. We'll just put it in one of our rooms. Yeah, exactly. So, so my question is, what kind of racket is this lady asking for consideration?
Sonny00:19:59No, no, no, no, no. What, what, what's happened here is very obvious. They have a blanket rule against this for two reasons. One is to stop people from sneaking in concessions. That's the big one. But also to stop people from recording the movie. They don't want people bringing in like a fucking B, BCR.
Mike00:20:15So I, I thought that too. I thought that too. But, but we emphasize, we're like, we just need to like. But to the, to the old lady, the box office is like, we could just, is there like a room? And what, what I think the actual issue is, it's the fire hazard. They don't want people bringing their roller board, uh, suitcases and putting them all in the lobby and then it causing, you know, chaos or people getting things stolen and holding the movie theater responsible. But it turns out when you just ask the manager and the manager's like, yeah, we'll put it in.
JVL00:20:45Probably on slow day, like on slow times, you can do it.
Mike00:20:48Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the, the moral.
JVL00:20:51Buddy already left.
Mike00:20:52No, no, no. So I immediately called it.
JVL00:20:54Oh, good.
Mike00:20:54Okay. Uh, he had been, you know, waiting for an Uber or something, there wasn't much going on, uh, at the Myrtle beach, uh, uh, gallery or wherever we were. Uh, he was just moseying around looking for something to do. And, um, I, I, sometimes people throw the word hero around, um, kind of loosely, but I, I really do think I was a hero that day. So he got to see dune too. Um, and I got to see challengers and the suitcase was secure and ready for him when he departed. Uh, to go to the airport.
JVL00:21:22Did you guys make out by accident?
Sonny00:21:24He was a dude too.
Mike00:21:26He was a dude too.
Sonny00:21:27You were both, you were, you, you're telling me there were two different guys. It was you two guys watching Zendaya. That's right. That's right.
Mike00:21:33But separate, very different Zendaya, uh, cinematic experience. Um, so anyway, so that's the story. I could tell you less interesting things at the bachelor party, but needs to say a fun time was had by all, um, the movie experience, however, was, was quite different. So should we roll into that or should. So we should talk about box office, I think before, before we talk about this movie. So challengers was number one last week at the box office, bringing in just over $15 million, uh, just, uh, behind it about half a little more than half, uh, uh, of the box office for unsung hero. What is this movie? Sonny? What?
Sonny00:22:10I never heard of this, uh, Christian Jesus movie. Jesus, Jesus movie. Okay.
Mike00:22:15All right. Well, uh, the, the heathens went to see challengers. Uh, so, uh, any thoughts? On this box office, uh, I mean, look, uh, $15 million.
Sonny00:22:26So it's an, it's an R rated movie for adults that opens number one at the box office. So like, you just say that and like, oh, that's good. $15 million is still not a lot of money. Uh, and this movie costs $55 million to make. Um, I, I'm kind of curious to see how it holds. Uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's an okay opening, but it's definitely not $35 million. I mean, I, I don't know what they spent the money on. I like. I guess there are a bunch of crowds, crowd scenes, but I don't know what they.
JVL00:22:56It does not look like $50 million.
Sonny00:22:59$55 million. It's an expensive movie. Jeez. Movies got, movies got real expensive because of COVID.
JVL00:23:04I blame COVID mostly.
Sonny00:23:05Um, but the, uh, but man, it was, uh, it, again, I think it's mostly the crowd stuff. They probably had to shoot for a bunch of days doing the tennis stuff. I don't know. But no, it does not look like a $55 million movie. This is a movie that should cost 20.
JVL00:23:19Yeah.
Sonny00:23:21Um, uh, but the, uh, but the.
Mike00:23:24Maybe it was that transparent court that they were playing on.
Sonny00:23:26She probably got, I bet she got between 10 and 15 million for this.
JVL00:23:31She should, because this movie can't, I both can't get made and can't work without her. No, totally. So.
Sonny00:23:38Totally. Um, so anyway, uh, Challengers.
Mike00:23:41Should we talk about Challengers? Let's do it. Challengers.
Sonny00:23:44Sonny. Challengers, directed by Luca Guadagnino, the director of the Suspiria remake and also call me by your name and bones and all that guy. Uh, it's a story of, uh, I like to call it my shorthand for this movie. My elevator pitch for this movie is I do just go up to somebody and I say tennis threesome movie and they either know exactly what I'm talking about or they, they don't. And I'm like, I'm not going to explain it to you. You're not going to be in or if you don't under, if I can't say tennis threesome movie to you and you're not like, oh, I'm into it, then you're, there's nothing that's going to get you into the movie theater. That's that's it. So, uh, Zendaya stars. As, uh, Tashi Donaldson. She is the wife of a ATP star art Donaldson who has somehow miraculously in the age of Rafael Nadal and Jocko Novavich and, uh, um, uh, or sorry, Novak Djokovic and, uh, Roger Federer won six, uh, slam titles. He's won, he's won six majors. Uh, he's trying to complete the career grand slam coming back from an injury to win the grand slam, which will be the capstone to a fine career. Um, and, uh, Tashi's trying to get him back on the, on the, on the ball by having him play at a minor league tournament, a challenger series tournament. And in this, uh, challenger series tournament stars, um, uh, his former doubles partner, Patrick Zweig. They were doubles partners on the juniors tour. Uh, they, uh, had a serious falling out because of Zendaya. Because of Zendaya got in between them. Uh, she was a star on the female juniors circuit and her, uh, career came to a crashing close after a terrible knee injury. So she, uh, moved into being a coach and moved from being a coach to arts, uh, wife. And now she's the lady MacBething this whole thing to like make, uh, his, his career be one of the great all time tennis careers. Uh, I, uh, that's, that's all. And the, the, the, the way the movie is set up, it's set up with kind of a, it's almost a Christopher Nolan structure in terms of time. We, we start in 2019 and then flashback 12 years to their, uh, to their doubles match where they meet Kashi at this, uh, at this party. And she, uh, tricks them into making out with each other tricks. That's cause that's what, that's what the, that's what the ladies do. They trick men into making out with each other. Um, but is there more, is there a latent attraction between these two doubles partners? Are they more than just a couple? Just doubles partners. Uh, the, uh, the, then we kind of skip it again. We skip ahead through time watching the whole career. Um, I, I, I enjoyed this movie quite a bit. I didn't love it, but I do, I do enjoy this movie quite a bit in large part. And JBL, you can, maybe you can talk a little bit about this because the one thing it really gets right that I've never seen quite captured in a tennis movie before though, there aren't a ton of those is the mental aspect of the game. This is, this is a movie that is entirely about. Getting art Donaldson into the mental headspace to win. It's about, it's about a bunch of things. It's about desire. It's about what we want out of life. It's about what we want out of partners, whatever desire would be like the overarching theme, but like the, the very specific thing it is about is about how you get to be not only one of the like 200 people, any, there, there are probably 200 guys who have the physical skills to win a major at any given time. Um, but there are probably 200 guys who have the physical skills to win a major at any There are like five who have the mental toughness to do it, who have the mental wherewithal to, to withstand it. And this movie is all about generating that mental toughness, generating that, what, what mixture of fear and, uh, willfulness and headstrongness and mental toughness do you need to, uh, be a champion at that level? And I thought it was, I thought, I think, I think it succeeds incredibly well at that. It really is extremely. Good. I think, I don't know, but maybe I'm just overstating. I'll say it's the first time watching this movie was the first time in a long time. I was like, I really want to go play some tennis. And, and, and I realized as the movie was going on, it's not so much that I want to play tennis. It said, I just want like 20 years of my life back. Like I want to be 20 years younger. I want to be, I want to like, I want to be like 20 years and one shoulder surgery and like 40 pounds lighter before in the before times in the long run.
JVL00:28:19I would like to be able to. Step an inside out forehand.
Sonny00:28:23Yeah. I want to be able to, I want to be able to, I, I, again, I was like watching these guys play and I was like, I used to be able to do that kind of, not really, not, not at that level, obviously, but I was like, I used to be able to stop and start on the court again like that. If I did that, I did, if I did that today, my hamstring, my, my groin would leap out of my body. My, like the muscles, the muscles in my legs would explode in 16 different directions.
JVL00:28:46Art's groin leaps out of his body at one point.
Sonny00:28:50Oh, I know. I know. Uh, so anyway, I, uh, I like this movie a lot. It's a good tennis movie, which is a rare thing. Um, and it's a good movie about, uh, adults and their bizarre behavior because this movie is about a bunch of people acting bizarrely, frankly, but JVL, JVL, JVL, what didn't like
JVL00:29:08it? Loved it.
Sonny00:29:11There we go. There it is.
JVL00:29:14I loved it so much. I have not been able to stop thinking about it. I liked it as. As much as I liked the iron claw, which is to say as much as I've liked a movie that we've seen in the last year and, uh, it's a bunch of things. It is superficially a tennis movie. What it really is, is Henry portrait of a serial killer. It's Zendaya portrait of a serial killer. Cause that's what she is. Um, and I, there are three different layers of reading that you can take in. But as, as a tennis movie, you are right. Sonny, this gets tennis more right than any other movie I've ever seen. Uh, and it gets not only the physicality of tennis, right? All three of them are believable looking tennis players in the way that it is shot and both just like what their bodies are.
Sonny00:30:15Well, I will say, can I just interject here? Cause I did, I didn't want to get into this in my actual review because there's, uh, there's always a chance that this comes off horrible and sexist and creepy, but Zendaya looks like a tennis player from like 20 years ago.
JVL00:30:27Yep.
Sonny00:30:28She, she does not, she is not built like a modern female tennis player.
JVL00:30:32Well, she's built like a modern junior player though. This is, so if you watch the junior, right? And so we never see her as a pro. We only see her through age 19, right? And this is what, if you, if you watch any of the juniors at the US Open or Wimbledon, this is what the girls all look like, right? They don't, they are, they are very tall. And they don't, they don't get to bulk up until later in life. Right? So they get the height first. Um, but the guys look like Wimbledon, which is my other favorite tennis movie, which gets some things right about tennis and what Wimbledon gets right about tennis is the life of the guy who never pops like it, it, there's this fantastic moment in Wimbledon where, uh, Paul Bettany and Kirsten Dunst are in the London eye and they're at the top of the London eye and, uh, he is only, he is at a party, it's a sponsor party. I think it's a Nike party and he is only there because he has inexplicably won his first two round matches. He was a qualifier and he and Kirsten Dunst get to the top of the eye and they're looking out over London and Paul Bettany says to her someday, none of this will be ours, which is such a fantastic line about the truth of what tennis is, I mean, tennis is there for you and your youth, and then it takes everything away from you, uh, which is what's cruel about it, it's a little less so now, but 20 years ago, uh, everybody's career was over by age 27 and a lot of women's careers were over by age 25, you know, back when tennis was really ruled by teenagers, uh, so this gets the, but the thing is Paul Bettany and Kirsten Dunst were not credible tennis players. Just on screen, like that was the one weakness of it here. The two guys both look and feel like tennis players and, and so does Zendaya. Um, and it gets the, the difference in. If you are the best player in the NBA, mm-hmm, the difference in your lifestyle between the best player and the 30th best player in the NBA is basically. Right. It's $18 million a year versus $28 million a year or something like that. If you are the 30th best player on the pro tennis store, like you are making a living. But that's about it. Yeah. If you are the 70th best player on the, the tennis store, you are barely scraping by week to week. You are trying to win enough money at a tournament to pay for your airfare and entry fee to the next tournament. That's the reality of it. And so if you are a 300 guy, you know, uh, which is, is, uh, what's the character's name? Zweig, right? If you are, are Zweig's character in this, you literally are. Living out of your car. I mean, that's, that's, you know, scraping by a challenger events and stuff. And I, you know, I've known guys like this. I've seen what their lives are like. Yeah. And this is why most of them leave the tour and just go pick up pro jobs. Yep. You know, they get a pro job at some country club and the higher your lifetime ranking, your best lifetime ranking was the better country club you can get, uh, you can get to. And so it gets all of that stuff, right? Uh, but then it. I, I, I just think the acting in this movie is off the charts and the three leads are all doing such incredibly subtle work. And so can I give you the, my, my three interpretations of the movie? I feel like I'm just monologuing and talking. I'm sorry about that. Um, go for it. At the most obvious level, uh, the read is that Tashi's and Daya's character is like a Michael Jordan obsessed, compulsive winner, right? And that she, she has to be. And when she can't be the best, she takes over, uh, you know, art's career. And then when art starts faltering, she's willing to do anything to make him get better. And this is like the whiplash version of like, oh, she's just, you know, she just needs to win. That's that's, you know, she's a demented addicted to winter. I think that's wrong. That's the, that's like the first layer you go down a level, you know, like, oh, she's actually a dominatrix, like what she does, she just gets off on dominating people. And this is why she forces the two of them. To kiss when she shows up, that whole scene in the hotel room is so great. I don't know if you, you noticed, but so she's, she is with these two boys and she does this thing where, which the look she gives them. When they're telling their story about how he met at basically Boletary, they met at the Boletary Academy. They call it something different. And she's in, you know, like, what did you do? And she's like, no, I was in homeschooling and my parents would never let me go to one of those tennis academies. And they're like, why not? And that look, she gives them like, are you is so perfect. Like it's such a subtle piece of work, like, because they didn't want me to get into places like this. And then about 90 seconds later, they're on the bed and she's got them making out with her so that she can pull back and get them to kiss each other and that look on her face, the satisfaction, like she's not doing it because she thinks it's hot. She's doing it because she was just interested to see if she could do it. Yeah. And this, this is, this is the dominance, right? And she, she hadn't been allowed to do those sorts of things because her parents kept us, but she always knew she wanted to do right. And so we see her trying to manipulate these guys throughout the course of, of their lives. And so the second layer of reading on this is that it's because she's a dominatrix and this is what she gets off on. But the one that I think that's real is that she's a serial killer and a figurative serial killer. Not a metaphorical serial killer, and that she's like Dexter. She is somebody who realized at a very young age, she was not like everybody else and that she had needs and desires that were different and she was biting her time and then once she got out and this is what we, when we first meet her chronologically, uh, she has, has been given free reign to exercise her powers to do the things that, that interest her. And those things include the winning. Those things include the dominating other people and, uh, torturing them psychologically, she has no emotional connections to other human beings, like in, in the, you know, like her connection to her child is barely there, but she puts a mask on, right? She's not like she is play acting at doing the things she knows that society expects a parent to do and feel with their child, but she doesn't feel like that. She doesn't feel any of that. And there's a scene where she comes back to the hotel after sneaking out to fuck his wife where, uh, in, and art has fallen asleep in bed with their little girl. And the look on her face is this, there's no disgust. It's not only it's, it's like just uninterest.
Mike00:37:38She, she doesn't know what it is.
JVL00:37:41She recognizes what it is. She rolls, she rolls her eyes, recognizes what it is. And she knows that that's a thing that people do. Right. But she doesn't know what that feels. Right. Because to her, they're all NPCs. And this is, this is where like, you know, like mass shooters and serial killers come from. They, they don't view the rest of the world as real people. They think they're the only real person. That's right. Yeah. And she has learned to put a mask on and work through it. And she, that's the thing. She knew it when she was younger and she understood it and understood that she had to keep all of that hidden until she got to a place where she could manipulate the world. And I. Just. Found all of that absolutely fascinating.
Sonny00:38:23So I, I'm, I'm largely with Mike. I come to you in one second. I just, I, I think this is, I think this last read is pretty close to right. In, in, again, in my written review, I described her as Lady Macbeth. We did an episode of this on across the movie aisle a couple of weeks or a couple of, couple of days ago. And the, the comp that came up there that I, I did not put in my review. Cause again, I, I have a tendency to get called sexist when I say things like this. But, but she reminds me of Catherine Trammell from basic instinct. She is Sharon Stone's character from basic instinct. That's like, that's what she's doing here. She's playing games and getting what she wants. And like, maybe, maybe she has good reasons for that. Maybe, maybe it's all for the greater good or whatever, but like she has, she has sociopath eyes.
JVL00:39:09She's an absolute sociopath. And Zendaya, I, I, I mean, if there is a better performance by a female actress this year, I'll be shocked. And I, I just feel like Zendaya should absolutely get a nomination for this. It's an amazing piece of actually work because again, it's so subtle and she, she changes speed so quickly, right? You can see her when she's being charming. The charm, the charm is there and you almost forget. And then when she turns to the sociopath, it's really Michael.
Sonny00:39:40Can I just, one, one, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. One more cinematic parallel here. I, and there was, so, uh, I don't know if you guys have ever seen Stranger on a Train, the Hitchcock movie, but that, so that movie is based in the world of tennis and the setup here is two guys meet on a train, one is a professional tennis player, one is, I can't remember what he does, but they, uh, they trade murders, they say, well, wouldn't it be crazy if I killed your mother and your wife, the person you want dead and you killed the person I wanted dead. And the tennis player is like, ha ha. He mostly wants this guy to go away. But the, the guy who is played by, I think, Farley Granger, right? Uh, he kills, he kills the person, the tennis player wants, and so he shows up at the tennis player's match later in the movie and there's, it's like it's, there's
JVL00:40:22the exact same shot, all the heads turning either way, but all the hands are staring straight ahead. They do that with Zendaya.
Sonny00:40:28Exactly. Right. And they do that with Zendaya. And it's like, it's like the it's, it is the purest visual cue that Luca Guadagnino is saying, this bitch is crazy.
JVL00:40:38And she, I mean, I would say that the subtleness of the first time we see her in a crowd, she's not there. She's not doing that, but she's watching different things than everybody else is watching. Correct. And that is like your first tip off that she is seeing the world differently than everybody else. She does not look at the universe in the way that normal humans do. Yeah. So I don't, Michael, tell, tell me what you think, man.
Sonny00:41:07Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Mike. Sorry, Mike. You can talk now.
Mike00:41:11Horniest movie ever. It was like.
JVL00:41:17Edging.
Mike00:41:17It was, it was, it was a little much, it was a little much for me.
JVL00:41:22I, I mean like. Little much in that, like you needed to button up the trench coat or a little much that it made you uncomfortable, but in a good way, or a little much uncomfortable in a bad way, here's a doll. Michael, show me where the movie touched you.
Mike00:41:37Uh, no comment on that. Um, no, but it was, it was, uh, it was so, I, I guess I didn't quite, I, I knew from the trailer. That it was gonna be, that it was gonna be horny, right? It was gonna be like the tennis threesome movie, but like, I guess I didn't pick up on, I didn't realize there was gonna be this like gay and I don't even call it subtext, right? It's like, it's like in the text of the movie.
JVL00:42:03Um, what's the thing about, yeah, it's like the super subtext, huh? I didn't think there was any gay subtext at all. Tell me more about that. It was, it was all text. Really? Are you kidding? Are you kidding JV?
Sonny00:42:16I can't even, I can't even tell.
JVL00:42:18No, I'm not, I'm not, I don't think there was any of that going along. I think she, she wanted to ruin their friendship. She saw, she saw that there was a two best friends. She says that she's like, I don't want to be a home wrecker. And the minute she says that you're like, oh, that's what she wants. She's desperate to just wreck this friendship.
Mike00:42:35Set, set Zendaya aside, set Tashi aside here. Okay. So they're, they're hanging out in the hotel room in their underwear. Um. They've been roommates for years. One of them taught the other how to masturbate and they talk about this. And he says, it's a sweet story. Uh, this is all in one scene, the churro, the churro. There's do you know, do you know how many foods are phallic shaped? All the best ones. Um, I guess there's a banana scene.
JVL00:43:11That's super, super bad. There's a banana at the end of our own court.
Mike00:43:15Um, and then, and then, I mean, all the way up to spoiler, all the way up to the end, because what happens at the end is they jump into each other's arms at the end.
Sonny00:43:27Collapse in a cuddle pile at the end.
Mike00:43:29So it's a, it's a little gay.
Sonny00:43:31I can't, I can't, I seriously, I still can't tell if you're doing a bit or not. I'll just say that, like, I, I, I, I joked with a friend, I joked with a friend earlier, but there's never been a movie that's more obviously been directed by a gay European man, because like, it's, it's not just all the, the, all of that. That Mike just mentioned. It's also the shot in the locker room where you have, you have the tennis, you have the, you have the tennis threesome. You have the tennis threesome movie with Zendaya and like, there's no female nudity. It's just a bunch of dicks later. And then also the like house techno music on top of the tennis. Like I was like, I was like, this movie could not possibly be any more European or any gayer.
JVL00:44:12Yeah. I guess, I guess I could see the gay stuff now that you mentioned it.
Mike00:44:16Okay, Jeff, this is a bit, uh, for real, for real. Okay. Um, so, so that was, that was interesting, but it was, I mean, it was compelling because one thing I was trying to figure out is how, how much of it was two ways and how much of it was Zweig's own, uh, kind of projection of something more onto Donaldson. Um, I think, I think he's the more, I mean, right. We see him as he's swiping through Tinder profiles, trying to find a hookup so we can have somewhere to sleep that night.
Sonny00:44:56Such a great sequence.
Mike00:44:56It is great. And then he, he pauses briefly on the one guy that shows up on his Tinder profile. And then he swipes right again, right? Like he keeps swiping, right? So like we are very, we are told very explicitly that at least he is.
Sonny00:45:12Well, I, so I have a question about that because I don't, I've never used a dating app. I don't know how Tinder works or anything, but do you have to have it set up to be like, I'm bi and that's why he's getting the, I'm sure it can be like an accident.
Mike00:45:26I'm sure it can be set up that way. Um, I don't know.
Sonny00:45:30This is, this is like my most, this is my most church lady school Marmish question. I don't, I literally just don't know how it works.
Mike00:45:38I just assumed that that was, that was the, I didn't think about it too much. But, um, so I feel like we're told pretty explicitly that he is, you know, like bisexual, but, but the, but, but Donaldson, like that's much less clear. And so, you know, part of the tension in the movie,
Sonny00:45:55Art Donaldson is the one who bites on the churro.
Mike00:45:57That's true. But that's, that's, that's, that's subtext. Um, I don't know. Um, so, so I, I do, I just, I thought, I, I thought that was kind of interesting. I actually thought what was more interesting to me and what I enjoyed the most was the way that the tennis was filmed in. In the movie. And I know Sonny, you wrote in your review, you, you thought some of the, the, some of the stuff was a little dizzy.
JVL00:46:21The very end, the final five minutes when you are, you are the ball and are being spun around.
Mike00:46:27That was, that was, that was a little much, but I did like, I did like the point of view from the players and the breathing that I, that, that was, I thought there's, there's
Sonny00:46:38one thing, there's one thing, there's one shot that works really well, which is, um, I forget, uh, I forget exactly how it's set up. It's from like mid court and you see the ball coming, coming at, uh, I, I, yeah, I wrote it down here.
Mike00:46:56Uh, there's a couple of shots where the ball comes right at the camera.
?00:47:00Yeah.
Sonny00:47:01Yeah. I, I, the shooting of the tennis matches I thought was fine except for that ball POV shot. It was more of the score that annoyed me. It was, it, it, I, I didn't, I, I, there are movies where I really like having that kind of driving techno thing. Like Nicholas. Finding Refn does it very well in the neon demon. There are some other, there are some others where I think it can work. I just thought it came across to me here as just when they were playing tennis.
JVL00:47:27Right. So this is, I mean, this is, this gets to the key, right? So you learn everything you need to learn about Tashi. You learn when she is talking about how tennis is relationships, right? And she, she's talking about how she had just beaten this girl at the junior, junior U S open. And, uh, she hates this girl. She's like, yeah, don't feel bad for her. She's a sore loser in her, in her race, the Austrian. Yeah. Yeah. The Austrian. But then she starts talking wistfully and she's like, yeah, but we played tennis there for about 15 seconds. There was that one rally where, you know, where we really saw into each other's souls. And this is like the Joker talking about how, when you kill somebody with a knife, you get to really see who they are, you know? And after she wins the, she's like, ah, and throughout the movie, whenever we are getting people. Doing that peer into their soul while you kill them. We also get the techno music.
Sonny00:48:21Yeah.
JVL00:48:22Which is like, like 10 of tennis is the Tashi's metaphor for murder. Yeah. And, and you get it both on the court and in all of the other scenes where she is murdering somebody emotionally. So, okay.
Sonny00:48:38Okay. So let's, let's say, let's say that tennis is her metaphor for murder. It's art metaphor for love. Yes. So what is it? What is it? Patrick's metaphor for sex, right?
JVL00:48:51I mean, is that not, is that not right? I think it might just be for sex. I think it might be. I'd have to think that a little bit more.
Sonny00:49:01So this is, so this is the F the FMK, the fuck. Yeah. Yes.
JVL00:49:04No, no, it really is.
Sonny00:49:06Yeah.
Mike00:49:07It really is. It's profound. Yes. All right.
Sonny00:49:10See, this is why you got to talk these things. Hold on.
Mike00:49:12I have some pedestrian questions about, about the plot. Yes. Is it possible that Zendaya's kid is, is Patrick's? Did I, did I misread that? I mean, there was, cause they, the, the, the, the time jumps made me think. Cause they hook up right in Atlanta, like seven years prior, eight years prior. And their kid is the same is roughly the same age. I thought they were going to do something with that and then they didn't do it. So, um, well,
Sonny00:49:45Well, Tashi is totally uninterested in that child. Totally.
Mike00:49:48Yeah, absolutely. Like we, um, and I thought, I thought the whole, there were, there were a couple of things that I thought in this movie, there were like dangling threads that never got pulled or, or like, like we were supposed to think something was going to be more made out of that. Like the, the, um, the woman who's at the signup for the challengers tournament, who's like, Oh, I saw you, uh, several years ago, Patrick at, you know, and we do see her in that flashback, but like nothing ever comes of that. And I, I thought that was a little odd. Like, I don't know why so much was made of this actor, you know, of this character. And then we, nothing ever happens. Um, I thought like, I felt like we were supposed to see more of Tashi's mom, um, because she's always taking care of the kid, but it's like, it just felt like they realized they needed like an adult around to take care of the kid. This is how it works in tennis. Yeah, totally.
JVL00:50:45When you have kids, this is, they travel with people who handle the show. Absolutely.
Mike00:50:49It just, it just felt like it felt squeezed into the movie. And then finally, so what actually happens at the end of the match at the end of the movie? Like, like who wins that point? Oh, that's what's so Tashi wins. Yeah.
Sonny00:51:04Tashi wins because she got what she, she wanted, which is them fighting each other.
Mike00:51:08Yes.
JVL00:51:09And, um, that's why, that's why the, she has the same reaction to that as she has when she, this is the movie. The movie's level of foreshadowing is done in such a way where it is never heavy handed, but always satisfyingly paid off, I think. And, and the movie does that over and over and over and over again where, you know, there is like, it's just endless Chekhov's gun. The ball and the racket. The ball and the racket at the end when he changes the serve in those final two minutes, I had a, I'm just like one of those mind blown moments where I was just like, holy fuck, this is happening. You know, it was, it was, uh, for people, I don't, again, spoilers. Uh, when Zweig first starts dating Tashi and he, you know, he can't talk about it because she's famous and he's a nobody. And so he's got to, and he tries to keep it secret, even from art, who is his childhood best friend. He comes out to Stanford to see art, uh, cause art has gone to Stanford as well before turning pro. And they're playing together and artists trying to get him to sound like, did you fuck her? Did you fuck her? Did you fuck her? And he says, okay, fine. You won't tell me, but, uh, serve normally instead of, cause he does a J, uh, what was the last name? Was it Jay Weber? Is that the guy? The last great American player to Jay Berger. Jay Berger was the last top ranked, you know, or top 50 American player to serve with his arms starting behind his head, um, made it to a U S open semifinal once in the late eighties. Uh, and he says, serve normally. And so after thinking about it for a minute, it's why it serves normally. And then at the end, when Zendaya has fucked swag to get him to throw the match so that art can win, uh, as they are at what, uh, match. It was deuce deuce in the third, the third it's the tie break deuce and swag goes and serves normally. And it's just like, Oh shit. And it's, it's just great. Yeah. And I think the ending, the, this movie sticks the ending as well as any movie since iron claw, right? Iron claw gives us at the end, the, the happiness, right? Iron claws is ultimately a happy, but they make it out of the horror, the heart, the haunted house. And we see the three brothers like in heaven together. Right, right, right. And we see him with his right. The movie ends with Kevin, Eric, uh, Kevin Von Eric and his son saying, I'll be your brother. Right. And it gives us what the audience needs and sticks the landing this movie by not doing anything other than showing us Tashi winning and her doing that. Oh, come on. Sticks that landing so hard. I mean, yeah, I think it works.
Sonny00:54:11I know there are people, I know there are people kind of like Mike who are like, but who won the match?
Mike00:54:15No, no, no. But I, I, I appreciate everything you just said, JVL about the ending. I also want to know who won the match, but that's, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's me. That's the man of the people here. Um, so, oh, a couple of other things. Um, the whole, a couple of things I didn't understand the windy day before the match. What was that supposed to be?
JVL00:54:36Like, what was that? That was pure Shakespeare. Right. So this is, that was the tempest. The tempest. Literally, this is the tempest. Okay. And the, the, and then with the, the gigantic. Poster of her, the Aston Martin ad of her and her husband watching down over the car where they're fucking totally like that. That whole thing was it's, it's the tempest. It's, it's, uh, you know, Dunstan woods marching on whatever, whatever.
Mike00:55:02Dunstan and wood. Yeah.
JVL00:55:04Right. Go ahead. More questions.
Mike00:55:06Um, there was one other question I had. Um, oh, it's not really a question, but a comment about, which I thought was funny. So the flashback sends them back. Cause these, these characters are supposed to be, even though they're younger than me, they're supposed to be my age in the, in the timeline that they outline. And so I did get a kick when they went back to 2006 and like the, the ways that they indicated in the movie that it was 2006, right. They had, um, Nellie's hot in here playing at the party and the Blackberry phones a couple of years later when they're at Stanford, um, just the whole thing at Stanford.
Sonny00:55:45Yeah.
Mike00:55:45Exactly. At Stanford. Um, and it just, it struck me that I was trying to think, okay, if there were a movie made in 2006 where, where the flashback was what, 14 years and 12, what would it be? Um, uh, 18 years earlier that would put it, that would put it in, in 1988. And I, and I feel like 1988 looks so much different. In a movie of like teenagers in a movie, uh, from 2006, then 2024 looks from 2006 or am I, is this just what aging looks like? I don't know, but like, it just seemed like they didn't have to change much. They just changed like some like window dressing and all of a sudden it's 2006 again. I'm sorry, old man. Okay.
JVL00:56:36I'm sorry, old man. This is from, from 2006, 88 looks pretty close in the same way that from 2020, 2006 looks pretty close. Pretty close.
Sonny00:56:46No, but I understand what, I understand what Mike is talking about. He's talking about essentially time collapse. Like there's, if you, if you, if you put, uh, if you lined up three people in front of us, you said this person is from 1988, this person is from 2006 and this person is from 2019. The person from 2006 and 2019 is going to look very frankly, like more similar than the person between 1988. Cause it's like, you know, 1988, you think like, what's the style of 1988? Clothes, style, hairstyle, suits, but like, but like 2006 to 2019, I, it's like 13 years.
JVL00:57:23I think we've done the math wrong on this. I mean, I was doing it for 2024. I was doing it for 2024, but you're right.
Mike00:57:29It does take place 2019. But, um, well, but I do think like there's been a, like, like things have just gotten more casual all over the place, I think in terms of fashion. So I think that has something to do with it.
Sonny00:57:42And also like all, and, and everybody dresses. It's from the, everybody dresses when they do. I don't know. There are throwback trends that are like, I'm dressing like the 1980s. I'm dressed like the 1970s. Like, I don't, I would have a hard time defining what a person in 2024 looks like versus a person in 2006. Like what the big differences would be like hip, hip, where, where jeans ride on hips was probably way. I don't know.
JVL00:58:08I don't know. Our friends would know. Uh, we could ask Hannah. Okay. I, did you have more? Cause I had a couple. I have no more JVL. So I, the level of detail, I really deeply appreciate the movie. And I'll just two examples. The first is when Swagg pulls out his phone to hop onto Tinder to find a date, the phone screen is cracked. Yep. And that is such a tiny little like, Oh, this is a guy who's really down on his luck. Right. And when we later learn that his family is rich and that this is all. Like an affect, like he's choosing to live like that. That's fascinating to me. And that little detail, the cracked screen really told, told me something. The second, there's a moment when we are in Tashi and arts hotel room. They're trying to talk and their daughter comes in and wants to watch a movie and the movie she wants to watch is into the spider verse. And, uh, Tashi does what all of us do when we're trying to have a conversation with our spouse says you, here's an iPad. You go start. Watching it and I'll join with you and the kid runs off. I don't know if you guys could pick this up in your theaters, but while they're having their discussion in the back rear right speaker, you can hear the opening music from into the spider verse, which is that it's like a very techno e distorted. It's fantastic. And it's really subtle, but it's right there. And this again, just, it was like, I, I have had a thousand of those moments where I'm trying to talk to Shannon and I can hear one of them doing the thing that I've just told them to do to give us three minutes to have a conversation. And it's just a small detail in the sound mix to add to the verisimilitude of the entire thing, which is why it all feels so real. And so lived in and thus, so Tashi is then so terrifying. And I guess this is what it is. I see this as a thriller to me, this is not a tennis movie. It's a thriller in the same way that iron claw is a haunted house movie, not a sports movie. And ultimately I find that fascinating. And the character of Tashi is engrossing to spend time with, even though in the same way as you, I think the, the callback to basic instinct is fantastic. Sonny, I can't believe you didn't put that in your review.
Sonny01:00:36Uh, I figured calling her lady Macbeth would get me in enough trouble. No, but I think that this is a strong female. She is a strong female.
JVL01:00:46You can see why Zendaya wanted this. And here's the other. So I remember us saying in the dune two show, I thought Zendaya did not, was not great in dune, uh, which surprised me. I thought she was weirdly inert in it. And, uh, she is a, she's a very good actress and she is a movie star. She's active. And she also has this weird ability to play anywhere from. Like 16 to 35, totally believably. And I don't know what it is about like either her body type or her face or what, but she is totally believable as like the 17 year old high school senior when we meet her and totally believable as a 35 year old mother at the end. What did they do by the way?
Mike01:01:37Cause that, that does remind me. What did they do to change how the, the, the, the guys looked?
JVL01:01:44Art has like frizzy, frizzy, like, you know, hair that's longish and they cut it and it becomes slicked back to the side.
Mike01:01:52Like, uh, but I also feel like he's, he wears like larger clothes as a teenager to like kind of hide the muscular. Yes, I think that's right. Yeah. So yeah, I was kind of like watching that. I was like, well, how are they doing this? Cause it is quite a big leap and he looks so much older as an adult as he should.
JVL01:02:09So the two guys are fantastic in this too.
Mike01:02:11So, so, so Zweig was in, I've, I've recognized him from the crown because he plays the, uh, the teenager, teenage Charles. Are they Brit actors? Are they both? He is. I, I think the Donaldson guy is an American, but, um,
Sonny01:02:27that's Mike Feist. He was, uh, in West side story, the Spielberg West side story.
Mike01:02:32I didn't see it. They're both fantastic. Um, yeah, but he was, it was, I was also amazed by that because of course my, having seen him as Charles where he, he plays Charles, this is kind of. Um, he plays Charles very realistically. He's kind of insufferable and, uh, and, uh, whiny, you know, teenager and, uh, or sort of young adult and, um, totally different character obviously from Zweig.
JVL01:02:59So, uh, yeah, very, one more thing about Zendaya. This is, this is a really interesting and brave choice of a project for her to do. She is America's sweetheart and she is a movie star and if all she cared about was being America's sweetheart and a movie star, she would not do things like this. She would stick to Spider-Man and Dune and big role model-y kind of, this is much more of a Sharon Stone, it's just a very, this is like something Anne Hathaway would choose to do.
Sonny01:03:34The thing she is most, the thing she was best known for before the Spider-Man movies was, uh, was Euphoria. I mean, she did some Disney TV shows after, but like Euphoria, the, like teen sex and drug show on HBO.
JVL01:03:46I don't think she was, I think that was a very much a niche, like an indie thing for her, which she was most known for was, uh, was, uh, the, the greatest showman.
Mike01:03:59No, I think for young people who watched her on Disney channel and then watched her on Euphoria, this actually makes a lot of sense, uh, in terms of, I think it's a great choice
JVL01:04:09and it's a choice of somebody who has decided they want to be a serious actress and not just a brand and producer. I think she had to have, right? I mean, this whole thing has, has her fingerprints around it. Great, great fucking movie.
Mike01:04:25All right. Yeah, it was, it was pretty good.
JVL01:04:27Uh, all right.
Mike01:04:29Again, again, a little too well. Okay.
JVL01:04:32Did we have the same breakdown on iron claw? Sonny and I loved it. And Mike, you were like, yeah, yeah, it was, you know, um, that's interesting.
Mike01:04:42I just, I'll, I'm gonna keep my thoughts inside.
Sonny01:04:44Were you a tennis player? Yeah, all three of us, all three of us are tennis players.
Mike01:04:48We all play tennis.
JVL01:04:49Um, I was, so it was Vic, like, this is a weirdly tennis obsessed show and always has been.
Sonny01:04:55Yeah, we do a lot. We do too much kind of tracks actually.
Mike01:04:59Um, but, uh, all right, well, that is all the time we were going to give it to this episode. Uh, check us out at sub beacon.com comment. What, uh, what you think about, um, uh, should we do an, well. Should we do an FMK? No. Okay. Well, no, get it out. Get the idea out. All right. Uh, check us out at sub beacon.com and we will talk to you next time.
JVL01:05:30Uh, are we doing fuck, marry, kill Nadal Federer? Djokovic? Is that what this is?
Mike01:05:35No, I was just, I started to think who could we do FMK? And then I realized I'm looking at three of us on the screen. I was like, I do not want to go down that road because it's obviously.
JVL01:05:44The doll, uh, Federer Djokovic, right?
?01:05:50Sure.
JVL01:05:51Fuck Rafa. You marry Federer. That's fine. Kill Joe.
Mike01:05:54I'm sure it's all right. I'm sure it's fine.
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