#240. 'Hail, Caesar!'
Listen to this episode ↗on Substack, where the show lives now
The main event is a discussion of the Coen Brothers' Hail, Caesar! (2016), joined by special guest Father Harrison Ayer, a longtime friend of the show who says he watches the film three or four times a year and counts it among his top ten. Sonny lays out his three-layer reading — a loving, technically dazzling parody of the classic Hollywood studio system, a noir-style kidnapping mystery built around Josh Brolin's fixer Eddie Mannix, and a genuinely Catholic theological allegory, per Ross Douthat's framing of the Coens' unofficial religious triptych of A Serious Man (Jewish), True Grit (Protestant), and Hail, Caesar! (Catholic) — and calls it one of his favorite Coen films. JVL, seeing it for the first time, loved it and singles out the "would that it t'were so simple" elocution scene between Ralph Fiennes and Alden Ehrenreich as a comedic peak, while Mike notices the quieter domestic holiness running through Mannix's marriage and confessional scenes. Father Harrison goes deepest of all, casting the movie as a meditation on vocation, sin, and resurrection, right down to a shot list gag reading "divine presence to be shot." Before any of that, the group spends a long opening stretch on banter: Sonny recaps a visit to JVL's house in New Jersey (card shops, chess with "G money," Father Harrison saying Mass and hearing confession in the living room) and a family rewatch of Barbie, which Father Harrison reads as a Genesis allegory with Ken standing in for Eve; Sonny also rants at length about rereading Dune and Dune Messiah and accidentally double-ordering the latter from Amazon, and Mike recounts his son's youth basketball team winning a lopsided 30–1 blowout. Box office chatter covers Bob Marley: One Love dropping 53% in its second weekend, an anime chart-topper nobody can identify, and a dismissive aside about the Christian film Ordinary Angels. The conversation wanders into Alden Ehrenreich's up-and-down career — breakout here, disaster in Solo, redemption in Oppenheimer — before trailing off with Sonny losing his own thread entirely.
From the show notes
Warning: There's a bit more crosstalk than usual, as we were having some mild connectivity issues. Apologies in advance for that, but it couldn't really be helped.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00Alright let's try this. Your line, just say it as I say it. Say your line exactly as I'm about to. Just as I'm about to do. Sure, okay.
Sonny00:00:11Would that it twere so simple.
Guest00:00:15Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple.
Sonny00:00:20My dear boy, why do you say that? Why do you say twere?
Guest00:00:22Will you just say it like I said it? Yes. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Watch my mouth. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Keep your head still. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple.
Sonny00:00:40I'm trying to say that, Mr. Lawrence.
Guest00:00:42Lawrence, hm? I thought a minute ago it was Lawrence.
Sonny00:00:48No, we can use Christian names, my good dear boy. Lawrence is fine, just as I call you, Hobie.
Guest00:00:51Okay. So, would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Trippingly.
?00:00:58Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Trippingly.
Guest00:00:58Would that it twere so simple. Trippingly. No, don't say trippingly, say the line trippingly. Would that it twere... Would... Would... Would that it... Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere... Would that it twere so simple. Rueful, rueful, rueful, hm? Would that it twere so simple. Rueful, would that it twere so simple. Rueful, simple. Would that it twere... Selfful, simple. Would that it twere so simple. Or selfful. You could say selfful. Rueful, selfful. Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere... Would that it twere so simple.
Sonny00:01:24Why are you doing this?
Guest00:01:25Would that it twere so simple. Would that it twere so simple. Just keep still.
Mike00:01:36Welcome to the Sub-Beacon Podcast. I am your co-host, Mike Warren. Joining me, as always, are my two co-hosts, who've actually figured out the laws that dictate everything. History, sociology, politics, morality. Everything. Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. And we've got a special guest for today's episode. Longtime friend of the show, Father Harrison Ayer. Join us over at subbeacon.com to become a patron. You can listen to new episodes every Friday morning, get bonus episodes when we make them on Mondays, and comment, become a part of the Sub-Beacon community. But you can only do that if you're a patron at subbeacon.com. Join us over there. We're going to be going back in time a few years to talk about Hail Caesar later in the show. But first, Father Harrison, welcome to the show. Let's start dudes chatting with you. What is going on with you and welcome.
Sonny00:02:43- Well, thanks for having me guys. So I figured since this is Sonny's first RCIA lesson, we should pull out the catechism and go over the four pillars of the catechism. Does that sound okay Sonny?
?00:02:52- Sure.
Sonny00:02:53- Well, I figured this is your first RCIA lesson. I also got you another book here called Catholicism for Dummies. - I know more about Catholicism than these two jokers. I like frequently am making points about their religion that are better than their own points. They know this. - I never make points. - Sad but true sometimes. Sad but true sometimes. No, it's a, it's great being here. Yeah. It's because it's been. Um, as I just hung out with JVL last week, uh, in Jersey had a few days with the family. I try to get out there at least once a year just to go visit them and hang out with them. So just got back from this, but this is when we, I, I exposed them to the greatness that is, uh, hail Caesar. And we exposed Shannon to the greatness that is, and some of the kids to the greatness that is, uh, uh, Barbie. And it was, it was amazing.
Mike00:03:46- Oh, the Barbie movie. They all, we all watched it.
Guest00:03:48- It's, it was like the seventh time I've seen it.
Sonny00:03:50So I love that movie so much.
Mike00:03:54- I, I don't know what to do with that information, except it now, it now makes me question whatever you're going to say about hail Caesar. And probably if I agree with it makes me question what I think of this movie, but, but would
JVL00:04:11you, would you lay onto Michael, the Greta Gerwig stuff about the book of Genesis?
Sonny00:04:18- Oh yeah. So, I mean, listen. When I first saw it, I noticed immediately a story of creation, redemption, fallen redemption. And it turns out actually that Barbie land as it, as it's meant at the beginning is actually meant to be kind of an allegory for a pre-fallen world where then when Ken comes back with the real world stuff, he brings sin with him and it disrupts the whole order of things. And, and she said that the book of Genesis was actually a strong influence on the whole of that movie.
Mike00:04:49- You know. - That is not crazy to me because I think, I mean, having seen Lady Bird and, and, and sort of followed her career a bit, like she's like a, a latent, almost like conservative Catholic. Like she doesn't know that she is, but.
Sonny00:05:08- She's a trad wife.
Mike00:05:09- She is kind of a trad wife, isn't she?
Sonny00:05:10- She's a trad wife in training. No, there's a, and she's doing, and she's doing the Narnia movie thing for a series or whatever that is for, for. - For Netflix. - I'm sorry. Isn't she Jewish? - No, she's Unitarian. - Oh, really? Okay. - Just because somebody works in the entertainment industry, that doesn't mean they're Jewish. - I'm sorry.
JVL00:05:32- Jonathan Glass. - I thought that Greta Gerwig married to Noah Baumbach might be of the Jewish.
Sonny00:05:39- He's definitely of the tribe. - The, the, it's funny, I've read this as well. And I like, I actually totally believe it doesn't make the movie good, certainly, but it, but I, but I, I mostly agree with it. It's also another point of proof in the movie that Ken is the actual woman of the whole movie is about Ken and his like move toward equality, you know, he brings, he brings sin back like Eve, that bitch and like, and, and that's, that's what destroys their whole little world. Except it makes it actually much better. Just like Eve made our world.
Mike00:06:16- Question though. - Yeah. - Who, who is, who is Satan? In this Genesis story, like who in Barbie is, is the snake, is the serpent?
Sonny00:06:26- Weird Barbie. - I don't, again, it's not like it's not a one.
Mike00:06:29- Weird Barbie. - I'm asking, I'm asking father Harrison.
Sonny00:06:31- Weird Barbie sends, sends, uh, her off to find the knowledge. - I mean, maybe. - That's an interpretation. - But like, it, it's not like a one for one allegory, you know, it's, it's like. - We lost father Harrison. - You know, maybe because like in the, in the end, like sin already exists in the real world. So the devil's already done his deed.
?00:06:51- Okay.
Mike00:06:52All right. Okay. Um, all right. Well, uh, that, uh, that's a nice, that's a nice little jaunt over to New Jersey, uh, for you, uh, any, any insight into JVL that you can give us having, uh, having seen him in his natural habitat.
Sonny00:07:11- Well, I feel like if I told you this information, I'd have to kill you.
?00:07:14- Okay.
Mike00:07:15Just checking.
Sonny00:07:16- I feel like, no, um, great host. Just totally. They're always very welcome. I always look forward to, and we get to bond over Marvel cards and all things collectible. It's his excuse to find.
JVL00:07:30- We went to a lot of, we went to a lot of card shops while he was here. - Yeah. - Yeah. We go to card shops. We, uh, we, we, uh, what? We watch good movies. We hang out. He was, uh, playing some chess with G money. - That's right. - It was great. It's just great.
Sonny00:07:47- Yeah. - Good times, good friends. Two weights with flash. Cause he was very eager. - Yeah.
Guest00:07:52Flash is like, come on, let's go lift. How much do you bench? How much do you even squat? It's definitely the flash show. - Can you, do you do confession there at the house?
?00:07:57Is that, is that a thing that happens?
Sonny00:07:58- It's possible. It's possible. I can't say whether I've done that or not because that would break the seal, but one could hear confessions in someone's house. Yes. - He says mass at the house.
JVL00:08:19It's great. - Yeah. Nothing like having mass in your, mass in your living room.
Sonny00:08:23- Isn't it great that on a Sunday morning, you don't have to leave the house to go to mass. So you don't have to get the kids into the van and all the battles that that ensues and that you hit a sick one.
Mike00:08:32- See, see, but I did that during COVID and it's still, it like, it was still a battle just to get my kids to go down to the basement and turn on the TV to watch the 30 minute, you know, from the Basilica mass on TV. Like it's, it's like six and one half dozen the other, as far as I'm concerned. But no, that would be nice. That would be nice. All right. Well, welcome again to the show JVL. What's going on with you?
JVL00:09:00Anything, anything to add? - No, that was it. I get to hang with Father Earth. That's why this show exists because there was nothing that we were seeing in the, like, you know, nothing in theaters right now, the, the really good Coen Brother movie is not really out wide yet, which looks quite good. Driveaway dolls.
Sonny00:09:17Is that. I think that's out wide. Maybe it's not playing, maybe it's not playing in New Jersey because they're, they don't, they don't wanna, you know, the, the, they don't want, they don't want hate crimes to happen. It wasn't here yet.
JVL00:09:31It wasn't here yet. And, uh, and I want to see it, you know, looks good. Love Margaret Qualley. Margaret Qualley's great. Um, anyway, so we, you know, Father Harrison said, oh, you guys gotta watch Hale Caesar. Gotta watch Hale Caesar. Cause we're talking about movies. And we watched it. I thought it was great. And I thought we could have a lot to talk about with it and we'd bring him on the show. Since he's seen it a bazillion times and, uh, it'd be good times. All right. How are you boys doing? Sonny, what's up?
Sonny00:09:54I couldn't, I, I was shocked that we didn't do this when it came out originally, but I guess this show hadn't quite started yet. I think this show started.
Mike00:10:03It was in, we started in 2016.
Sonny00:10:052016. Well, no, we started when it, when did, uh, yeah, I guess it was 2016, right?
Mike00:10:12It was about, it was, it was 2016. It was like, it was like spring of 2016, if I recall correctly.
Sonny00:10:18So may, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe I would've sworn we had done it, but, uh, uh, and I looked through the archive.
Mike00:10:25I couldn't find it. Well, I remember you reviewed it at the time. So I, and I remember reading that review at the time, but, um, so, okay, but well, before we get to the movie, Sonny, what, what is going on with you? What's uh, what's happened?
Sonny00:10:35Uh, not much. I have, I, I, I'm running a, I'm running a experiment with Amazon running an experiment. So I, uh, I reread the first Dune book this week, you know, after having. I've seen, I've now seen Dune part one and part two, which I, I assume we'll do that next week. Um, but I, I was rereading, I was rereading the book cause I haven't read the book in a long time. And frankly, I still don't think very much of the book. I, it's baffling to me how this became a, a huge, enormous cultural phenomenon. I've, I've never thought it was particularly good or interesting. And the, and like the book, the book drives home many of the problems with the film, which is that Paul is this actually like the movie improves on certain aspects. Of this. But in, in the book, Paul is this total Mary Sue character, like he just like, he's just like, he's, he's a great fighter and he's a master tactician and he has the loyalty of all of his men and he's, and he's a great lover and like, and it's just like, this is, this is ridiculous. Of course, every fucking 14 year old boy in the universe loved this book and they get so the Dune fanatics get so mad when you talk about how this is a book for children. This is a book for like precocious teenagers. Teenage boys who like feel underappreciated. I mean like even the, the description of Paul in the book, he's like undersized for his age and like, I'm just, I'm sorry. The whole thing is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Adolescent male wish fulfillment. I'm sorry.
JVL00:12:02This is Sonny. You just described 90% of all sci-fi of course, of course.
Sonny00:12:07Of course. Of course. 100, 100%. Absolutely. 100%. But like people there, there are people in our orbit who will tell you, no, this is a great work. It's a work of political intrigue and both like fuck off. It's a, it's a, it's a movie. It's a movie about boys who want to be appreciated by girls. Adolescent wish fulfillment. Yes.
Mike00:12:27That's all it is. That's all it is. And I, I find the structure of the book very confusing. Like there's like jumps in time that don't always make sense. And like having, you know, the princess Irulan's, you know, uh, uh, uh, diary entry. Like it's, it's.
Sonny00:12:44I don't know. I don't mind any of that. That stuff's all fine. That stuff's all fine. And that, that actually is, that's the, that's the most interesting thing about it. It's how it's structured. It's structured as essentially prophecy being revealed, which is like, whatever, kind of interesting. Um, uh, I wonder if we've, uh, anyway, uh, I'm running, I'm running an experiment here because I, so, uh, I w I'm reading Dune and I, I, I am gonna, I'm gonna treat myself to Dune Messiah, which is the second of the books in the series. And I'm, uh, even though I, I, I don't think this book is particularly good. I am curious to see what, what happens next to Paul Atreides and his band of fellows. Uh, mostly I wanna see the galactic jihad. That's what I'm excited about. The movie's very, very, very funny about this. The movie's absolutely refused to use the word jihad. It's all holy war. It's like, we are gonna embark on a holy war. We this band of desert fundamentalist radicals who are following our, our profit. We're gonna wage the holy war, not jihad. Definitely not doing that. Uh, but the, um, uh, I think that's the right choice, whatever I w it's, it's, but that's, I, I get, it's, it's a very marked change from the book.
JVL00:13:57It's like in the book, but it's a word change and why bother, whatever, why bother having
Sonny00:14:03that fight? Why use Muad'Dib?
Mike00:14:05Why use the other Arabic sort of, it's fine.
Sonny00:14:07It's, it's fine. It's just funny as all. It's very funny. Uh, that this movie about cocaine and Muslims has now, uh, been, you know, LSD and Muslims, either way. Um, there's also a very funny part in the book, which is kind of, uh, glossed over in the, in the, in the second part of the movie where Paul is talking about how he, like he, he's gotten so used to the spice that he doesn't really do anything for him anymore. So he has to take like, he has to like free base the spice and, and that sends him into a coma. Um, anyway, uh, neither here nor there. I am. I want to read Dune Messiah. So I ordered a, this is a very long way to get to my point. So I ordered a copy of Dune Messiah. From amazon.com where I get most of my books. Uh, they, if I, if I, if I need it shortly, if I need it quickly, usually I actually just get, get it used from Abe books. But if I want it in a, in a short timeframe, I ordered from Amazon, I ordered it and it's in stock and it was supposed to be coming, you know, it's supposed to get here on Monday or Tuesday. Sure. Uh, and it did not come. It was delayed. It was, they were like, oh, we're delayed a day. It'll be here on Tuesday. So I was like, all right, whatever. I'm done with, with Dune. I'm still reading it. And then, uh, there's a message that says, uh, shipment delayed, no new delivery date. And like, and, and so I went to cancel it and wouldn't let me cancel it. It was like your, your book is being ready for shipment. How dare you try to cancel it? So I'm like, I'm like, okay, this is weird. I went to the site. I thought, okay, maybe they sold out because so many people are buying Dune Messiah because they've all reread Dune. They got to get Dune Messiah. They got to, they got to pick it back up to get, to get ready for Dune three coming in 2030. Uh, so, uh, so I went to the website and I looked, says it's still in stock. It says, if I ordered one today, today being Wednesday, we're taping this on Wednesday. It says, if I order it today, uh, within the next two hours and 10 minutes, it'll be here by Thursday at 10:00 PM. And I was like, ah, all right, let's bet. So I ordered it again. I ordered a second copy of Dune Messiah just to see, just to see if it'll get here before the first one. I don't even know what's gonna happen here. I like, I feel like I've created a temporal paradox. I feel like I'm doing Tenet in my house. I think there's, I think there's a decent chance I destroy the world. If both of these books get here at the same time, like matter and anti-matter touching
Mike00:16:29each other. This is like Schrodinger's book. Yeah. It's it's, uh, which one will it be though?
Sonny00:16:34I mean, so, so that's, that's the, that's the question, right? So if I get the second book first, isn't it just the first book? The other thing is if I get both of these books, I now have to return one of them. It's a real pain. I, I like, I'm really the effort of actually returning it. Yeah, of course I will. I, I mean the Amazon has made returning things very easy. I just go to the seven 11 down the street for me. There's like, they got a little box that I put things in when I don't want them anymore. When I've, when I've tired, when I've grown tired of them, it's like here, return, return this here.
JVL00:17:05Don't try to understand it, Sonny. Just feel it.
Sonny00:17:10Everyone's going to see Tenet again. Cause it's got the re-release 70, 70 millimeter define everyone. I'm actually, everyone, everyone in, in the world is going back to rewatch Tenet. I might do it myself this week. I have it on Blu-ray. I have it on Blu-ray. What else am I going to do with my life?
Mike00:17:27I might do that. Um, you could, you got to get ready to read Dune Messiah.
Sonny00:17:31I mean, I got to read Dune Messiah. I got to, I'll, I'll watch Tenet and then read, well, the thing is I'm not going to need to read Dune Messiah for another, like again, like five or six years, because there's, this movie is going to make so much money guys, by the way, it's like, I really think part two is going to be an enormous hit, like 800 to 900 million dollars worldwide. Big, big, big number for this movie.
Mike00:17:53We should talk about this next week, but I'm curious if it would have been as big or bigger had they kept it, you know, at its original release date.
Sonny00:18:03Um, I don't know, uh, hard to say. Okay.
Mike00:18:08Hard to say. All right. Okay. Well, um, shall we, uh, shall we move on to, uh, to box office? What about you, Mike? Oh, um, nothing, um, just youth sports is all that's happening.
Sonny00:18:23So did the guy listen to our episode where you said you wanted him dead?
Mike00:18:28I never said that. I never said that. I never said that. I may have thought it, I never said that. Um, no, um, although I did find out that, uh, lo and behold, the, uh, the, the coach that we like, um, did in fact get a team. So we shall see how that plays out on baseball. But, uh, no basketball. Oh, oh, that's right. I did want to talk about this. So basketball has been an interesting season. Um, we've got a really stacked team in a, in like literally in the numbers, like there are 12 kids on our team. So, um, I, maybe there's one other team in the league that has as many as the kids and not only are there 12 kids, but like 11 or 12 of them show up every single game. So our bench Is just full of, of players. Um, and, but I will say there have been like some setbacks, like there've been two games that they've lost despite having some pretty good talent, uh, uh, relative to the rest of the league. Um, they just kind of weren't playing well together. Uh, and then the previous weekend they won and it was a good against pretty good team and they really hustled and they won and they looked as good as they, as they, uh, as they are. Um, Then we played a team this past weekend and our boys ended up scoring, I think like 30 points, something along those lines. Uh, the other team scored one point. I didn't say one basket, one point, one free throw shot. And it was, it was bad, but I also was very glad that our coaches neither. Uh, like neither told the kids to let up or like, certainly they weren't going like, ah, that's like, really? Like it was literally just, it was literally just, the kids were just playing and every single shot that our team took, they, uh, they made and every single shot the other team took, they missed every single one, obviously they only made one, one free throw. Um, but it was that point where all of the parents from our team, every time the other team had the ball, we were just like all like. Fingers crossed praying that this other team would score and they like, couldn't do it. And I just felt so bad. Um, so that's, that's, that's the, uh, but have you ever seen that? Like one point in a basketball game? It's bad.
JVL00:20:56Yes, I have. I've seen zero, zero flashbacks to last winter when I coached that awful fucking team.
Mike00:21:05Well, I felt bad for these kids, um, and, uh, and I will say my son and I did like in the car. We had a ride home. Like we had, we sort of were like, what would we tell the other team, uh, to do better? And so we had some fun with that, you know, like don't stop drive all the way to the basket. Like if you've got the ball or you've got the momentum, don't stop and then look around and try to find somebody open. Like the, like the big man that my son was guarding the whole time, he would just get that. He would cross over the half court line and then stop.
JVL00:21:40So Michael, Michael, if I could, somebody who's been to this rodeo before. When a team scores one point, that's an organizational failure. That's not like the kids on the team did something wrong or the coach did something wrong. It's the parents, the league, the, the facilities, people, the trainers, the nutritionists, everybody contributes to a failure of that magnitude.
Mike00:22:09There are no nutritionists or trainers, and I think maybe that's the problem. All right. Anyway. Okay. Well, let's move on. And now we can, I think, talk about the box office, which is, uh, dismal once again, number one at the box office this past weekend, Bob Marley, one love, uh, down 53% made what made $13 million total $71 million. Number two, it's the black illness. Yeah, I guess it is the black elbows, uh, demon slayer Kimetsu no Yaiba to the highest high. She are training. What the hell is this? I've never heard of this. Is it, is it anime? That's just anime.
Sonny00:22:50Oh, uh, it's, it's part of the, the crunchy roll domination of, uh, the, the world of, of Japanese animation in the United States. These things happen. These things happen every six months or so you get a, you get a anime movie. That's like number one or number two at the box office for a weekend. And then, and then that's it.
Mike00:23:12But is it, is it like for kids? For adults? Like what is it?
Sonny00:23:16Yes. Kids. Kids. Teens.
Mike00:23:20That doesn't answer my question. All right. Uh, I will say Madam Web, uh, pretty, pretty abysmal, uh, drop there.
Sonny00:23:2961% wasn't really falling for, it could have been worse, but like 61% is not, is not that ridiculous.
Mike00:23:36Uh, but only made like it made less than $6 million. Yeah.
Sonny00:23:40It's, it's, it's not gonna, it's, it's gonna lose a lot of money. Yeah. Migration continues to, you know, chug along again.
Mike00:23:48I think I, did I say this last week that my six-year-old like brings up migration that we saw like a month ago, like brings it up all the time. It's like, like the thing that he, uh, it's like the middle of this middling kids movie and he loves it.
Guest00:24:00So.
Mike00:24:01Yeah. Uh, any other box office thoughts are we about to, we're about to emerge as we've talked about from this desert of bad movies or no movies.
Sonny00:24:12Uh, no, the, the only other. Mildly interesting thing is this ordinary angels movie, which is, uh, Christian, Christian cinema with like, um, uh, Alan Richardson, uh, the reacher reacher himself is the, the star of ordinary angels.
JVL00:24:27Does he gouge anybody's eyes out with his thumbs?
Sonny00:24:31Unclear. Unclear.
JVL00:24:33Extraordinary angel. It's not, not, not clear to me if the Weber grills at people, if the power of Christ compels him to do these things, because if not, I am not interested in watching whatever he has to do in this movie.
Sonny00:24:45Obviously not. No, we're not. We're not.
Mike00:24:48Nobody. Nobody cares. I'm sure. I'm sure our, our resident man of the cloth father Harrison has seen ordinary angels. Have you even heard of it? And the second you said, no, this has gotta be a Protestant film.
JVL00:24:57I rolled my eyes. Yeah, this is you want a Christian film hail Caesar. That's a Christian film by which I mean a Catholic film.
Sonny00:25:08Listen, like anytime someone says Christian film, I just turn off immediately cuz it's automatically. Gonna be bad art.
Mike00:25:15Yeah, I think that's right. Probably. Am I wrong? No. I mean, I, uh, I will say that like it is, it is to me what like, uh, Christian rock was in the nineties, which is just like, you just knew, like it was making both Christianity and rock worse, you know, like, like sometimes it's good.
Sonny00:25:43There's an episode where Monica says, uh, you know, think of a rock band and then think of a Christian rock band and he goes, oh, sometimes it's good though. Sometimes it's good. Like, uh, apocalypto.
Guest00:25:54That's not a Christian movie.
Sonny00:25:57Oh, isn't it? Oh, I mean, it's, it is, it's a movie where, uh, you see a bunch of human sacrifice and awful pagan behavior. And then at the end of it, you know, who shows up to save the day, the conquistadors. Bringing their crosses on shore, literally from, I don't, do you remember who directed apocalypto? Mike?
Mike00:26:22I do. I do. Um, it was fair enough.
Sonny00:26:25I'll give everybody out there a hint. It was the first movie he made after the passion of the Christ, Jim Caviezel, um, aren't they doing a part two of that now, a part two, a passion to passion, passion, direction about the resurrection. Well, I, it's like through the, it's the journey through hell. Isn't it? That's an, isn't that what the, uh, the story was supposed to be? I think that was this, you know, you are, you are, you're exercising your Christian muscles there. Your theological muscles there. This is good. This is good. You don't need our shade. We can just throw water on you right away. I think it would burn me. Um, that's the point. It's like, uh, devil's advocate. Exactly. Speaking of Christian film.
Mike00:27:13All right. Well, should we, uh, should we move on then and talk about hail Caesar? Do we need a big boy reveal? Why don't we have a big boy reviews? It's whatever did the show, uh, contemporaneously Sonny, give us a review of hail Caesar.
Sonny00:27:27Hail Caesar. Uh, the 2016 motion picture from the Cohen brothers, uh, is, is, is like three different films in one. The, the first and, uh, kind of triptych one might say, sure, sure. Yeah. Well, kind of. All right. So, so the, the first, the first version of this movie is, uh, you could, you look at it as a loving parody of the, uh, studio system of the, um, early 1950s late the studio system is in decline, but they're still making Westerns. They're making costume period dramas. They're making, uh, musical numbers. They're making big, uh, big water spectacles, right And the fascinating thing about this movie is that it does all of these better than like any, it does all of these vignettes better than any Hollywood movie has done the full thing in, in recent, recent memory. Um, like the, there's a, there's a, a song and dance number star with Channing Tatum playing a, a sailor who's, uh, you know, on shore leave. And it's like the best musical number that a, uh, a film out of Hollywood has done in the last 30 years, probably, uh, it's, it's like that throughout the second way to look at this as, as a kind of new Irish, uh, mystery type film. So the, the meat, the meat of the plot is that Josh Brolin is a fixer. He plays Eddie Mannix, uh, for a capital pictures, um, capital studios, whatever capital picture studios, whatever it's called. Uh, and he, he is, he spends his, his days, you know, wrangling starlets and making sure they're not getting into trouble and arranging marriages for, uh, women who were pregnant out of, out of wedlock and, uh, uh, uh, trying to track down. The person who has kidnapped his star, and this is the mystery. So George Clooney plays a, uh, plays Baird Whitlock, who's a, um, in, in this movie, he is playing, uh, a role in the movie within a movie, uh, hail Caesar story of the Christ. I think, is that the subtitle?
Mike00:29:28I think a story of the Christ, a story, which I believe is the Ben Hur, uh, which is a subtitle
Sonny00:29:34as well, which is also the subtitle of this movie, really. It's like this, it's, it's, again, it's a movie within a movie, but kind of anyway. Um, we'll get to that. Uh, and, uh, he has been kidnapped by who, for what reason, that is what we learn as we go along. Turns out it's a homosexual communist conspiracy, uh, of, of only of like the most fevered imagination of conservative dreams, uh, which is, which is just one, one, the, the level of seriousness with which we want to take that as one kind of, I've, I'm like fascinated by this because it is, it is so it's, it's, it's, it's so. It's so funny.
JVL00:30:13And so well done. So funny. Um, oh my gosh, that's so funny.
Sonny00:30:16The stuff, the stuff with the, the stuff with the writers, you know, talking about the, the slower.
JVL00:30:21Can I say that this moment, so the, the vignette that is done where George Clooney is woken up in this house after being kidnapped, the closest approximation I can think of this is in the movie go the Doug Lyman movie, which was like a teen version of Pulp Fiction where Scott Wolf's character and his buddy are in this house. Like there's something weird and nefarious is going on with Bill Fichtner. It turns out that they're selling Amway and that's what this, you feel like, oh, something weird. And then you find out it's a bunch of commie Hollywood writers looking to seize the means of production. And it is, I just, I burst out laughing. It was so funny.
Sonny00:30:59Uh, it's, it's, it's so great. Um, uh, and then there's, there's the third level, which is the theological element here. And this is, you know, as, as our good friend, as the very intelligent. Uh, an entertaining film critic, don't you, don't you do it? Ross Douthit has argued on numerous occasions, hail Caesar, hail Caesar is the, the Catholic, uh, version of the Cohen brothers religious, uh, uh, um, point of view. Uh, they have also made, uh, a very Jewish, uh, religious man, a serious man is, uh, is there, is there old Testament? Uh, Yeah. Hollywood movie or their old Testament, you know, movie. Um, and then, God, there was a, there was a Protestant when I forget what the, maybe it was Fargo. I can't remember there, but there's like another, there's another, there's another layer to this that you can, you can go into, but I, I choose to focus on a serious man and hail Caesar cause they are maybe my two, my two of my favorite Cohen brothers movies. Uh, it's hard to pick precisely which one I like more or like more than like bird after reading. You know, uh, Fargo or big Lebowski or the rest raising Arizona, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, and I like it's, it is, it is, it is. The movie is very explicitly set up to create this idea of the Hollywood studio system as the Catholic church. Like, you know, the, the, the characters are constantly, there's a, there's a moment at the end of the film when Mannix slaps Baird Whitlock, who was spouting all this commie gobbledygook. And says, you, you're gonna go out there and you're gonna give the performance of your life and you're gonna mean it because you serve the picture and the picture has worth. And like, that is, that is the, it's, it's the whole thing. It's that's it right there. It's not. Um, but there are also other, there are other like things throughout, like Mannix is constantly going to confession, much to the annoyance of his, uh, of his priest. Um, he is, uh, there's, there's a great scene where Mannix is, has gathered a, uh, Russian, uh, Russian Orthodox. Uh, priest, uh, a Protestant, uh, father, uh, a, uh, a Catholic and a, and a rabbi to discuss the, the depiction of the Godhead in, uh, in hail Caesar story of the Christ. And they have this just wonderful, like two minute theological debate amongst all of them about the name. I, the whole thing is so the whole thing is the whole thing is just wonderful and perfect. It works on all of these levels. It works. It works on the Hollywood parody level. It works on the mystery noir level and it works on the religious allegory level. I, I, you know, I am not a Catholic myself as long time listeners of this show now. Yes. Uh, but, but I, I, I find it, I find this all very entertaining and amusing and like pretty, pretty well spot on again. I frankly, I empathize a little bit more with the worldview presented in a serious man where everything is just bad. And then you make one mistake and you get destroyed for it. Your whole family gets destroyed. That, that I, I get, I grok to the, I caught into that a little bit better, but, uh, but this is very good as well. This is nice. This is nice.
Mike00:34:19Yeah. By the way, before we move on, uh, the, the, the Protestant, uh, movie in the Cohen brothers religious triptych is, uh, according to Ross doubt that is true.
Sonny00:34:32Is true. Great. Oh yeah. True.
Mike00:34:36Great. That's right. Which is my least favorite of them by far. He suggests, he suggested this on Twitter, uh, eight years ago. Uh, basically true great hail Caesar, a serious manner, Coen brothers, version of Protestant Catholic Jew or Calvinist Catholic Jew to get more frost outfit, set it up.
JVL00:34:50Must be worthwhile. Uh, tell us, tell us about the movie. Did not mention what I was sure would have been your favorite scene in the movie, which is the first time that Mannix, uh, goes out to be a fixer and it feels a little bit like a scene from Ellie confidential where he's, he rolls up on this house where there's clearly some photography going on and you are prepared for something incredibly lewd. And he goes in to find a starlet who is getting pictures taken of her, but she's using a costume and he immediately yells at her about the, the intellectual property because she is playing
Sonny00:35:25a character, the studio owns, she, she owns, well, no, it's not, it's not the character. It's the actress. Cause the actress is under, under contract. So they own, they own the likeness rights to the actress, not the, not the. I'm also surprised Sonny didn't pick up on the whole capitalism versus communism theme of the film. Well, I mean, that is, that's, that's the, that is included in the, the, the murder mystery, you know, a lot of it. Again, the funniest thing about this movie is that it is like, if you ask, if you asked a, if you asked bill Buckley to make a movie about the, the commie infiltration of Hollywood, it would not look unlike this. I don't think.
Mike00:36:10I mean, there was literally a scene where, where the commie actor takes a boat out into the ocean and gets onto a Soviet submarine to defect.
Sonny00:36:22And, and like, but the, the best part is when the best part is that after they've explained all this to Baird Whitlock, the idiot, the idiot, George Clooney character, he's spouting it back to Herbert Marc Dessa and like has rendered him silent because he is, he is like absorbed all of their nonsense. Just like applied it immediately applied it to his own life, like, like, like a Hollywood actor would do. Yes.
JVL00:36:48Like what is what the, the idea that a, that Channing Tatum's character is gay and this is why he's part of the commie movement, but also then be that it's the actor and not the writers who gets picked up and like elevated to glory by the Soviets. Just kill. I was like, of course, of course the actor is the one who gets to go to back to mother Russia. Yes. He's left like, yeah, you know, we're going to struggle on and get them as their money sinks to the bottom of the, that was amazing.
Mike00:37:18That's terrific. Uh, JBL, any other thoughts that you had on, I'll just, I mean, as a first time viewer,
JVL00:37:23it's a weird movie and that it goes from beat to beat and Mannix is really the only through line. I mean, you get a little bit of it, uh, so much of it is just the joy of watching incredible actors. It's just doing, so there is a scene in which Alden Ehrenreich and, uh, Rafe finds are Alden Ehrenreich is a hayseed Western star who has been shoehorned into a sophisticated costume drama by this British director Lawrence Lawrence Lawrence Lawrence. And everything about this scene gets progressively funnier until the Rafe finds character. The director is trying to get Alden Ehrenreich to say, what did it was so simple and the two of them back and I mean, I, I can't under, I, I'm, I'm curious if you know more about this movie than, than I do, obviously, how much of that was on the page and how much of it was the two actors on the page don't wow.
Sonny00:38:34So I mean, to be able to write a scene like this, it's like, it's, it's stunning. You, you date. It phonetically spell out how they want him to pronounce each sentence. It's, it's, it's impressive.
JVL00:38:45And were you guys on the floor during that? Because I just couldn't stop the falling.
Sonny00:38:50I've watched, I've watched this movie five times and every single time, uh, it cracks me up. Like it just, it's, it's, it's a masterclass scene, but the best, but the best thing about that scene is that the payoff really comes like 15 minutes later in the editing room. Yes. When, when, when Francis McDormand is doing the editing and just showing, she's showing the scene cut together and she like almost chokes on her scarf and they pull it back. And then, and then it's like, God, what, oh God, what's the line? It's a, it's a, it's complicated.
JVL00:39:21But also, so with that moment, one of the things I love about that moment. So we've seen the, what that looks like from the sound stage and we saw how preposterous it was and how Alden Ehrenreich's character is so ill at ease and out of, but then once we're seeing the actual filmed version of it, you look at it and you're like, oh, they've made him look like a movie star and it all works here because this is what, this is what they can do in that business. They can just take a hazy, like on there or Alden Ehrenreich and just the way they shoot him and the effect of the film on the face and everything. And he looks like a million bucks and you kind of buy it, right?
Sonny00:40:02Because the picture has worth and you have worth for serving the picture.
Mike00:40:06Yes. All right. So father, okay. Give us, tell us what, this is a movie you've seen, what, nine times, 10 times? No, more than that.
Sonny00:40:14I watch it three or four times a year. Okay. It's, it's my, it's in my top 10 movie list. I remember seeing it in theaters.
Mike00:40:21So what more can be said from your perspective on this?
Sonny00:40:23I mean, I see, I remember seeing it in theaters and that, that whole, the priest rabbi and Protestant minister and patriarch scene. I was like, I was howling in the theater so hard and no one else is laughing. They don't get the joke that this is like a, a priest, a rabbi. And a minister walk into a bar joke is what this is. And, and they pull out the absurdities of certain theological language. And that scene just, like, it all makes sense. It fits the world that they're talking about. And that it also kind of plays fun with us. I mean, and the way the punchline of the whole scene is when the rabbi says, I haven't an opinion, which rabbi doesn't have an opinion, right? It's just, it's so perfect. It's just so perfect. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, there's all these different levels of, of, to the film, right? There's also the, the side plot of a kind of quasi virgin birth, right? Right. Deanna Moran. There's no father. Has a child. This is the Scarlett Johansson. Yeah. Uh, she, she has a child. She's not quite sure who the husband, who the father is. And then she married, marries an honorable man named Joseph who becomes the foster father of this child. Like this little, this little, like, it's not a perfect allegory. Again, but it's just this little fun little thing on the side that is so perfect. And, and there's these other themes too, and that's why I thought it was such a Catholic film in the end was not because of like the, the aesthetics of the thing or anything like that. And I think they do a great job of portraying, um, 1950s Catholicism in general. They just, and it's poking fun of it, but not in like a, but in like a, in a, in a, in a loving way. It's like that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's see something work, see something honorable still in this. It's even though it's a little twisted in times, but the thing that makes it, it's a, it's a film about vocation and identity, right? Cause Eddie Mannix, right? Eddie Mannix is the man, right? I mean, um, Mr. Sachs, the guy from New York, he's almost like a God, like you see this little play between God, the father and God, the son between Mr. S skanks and Mr. and Eddie Mannix. And, um, and Eddie Mannix is meant to be the image of, of, of the true man of what, what a good man is. And he's struggling. He's almost like this devil figure in the film, tempting him away through a pox lips and Armageddon, uh, through the offering the kingdoms of the world, essentially, if you would leave his current kingdom and come into his domain. Um, and that's the temptation it's it's the whole film really is, uh, um, it's entering into the good Friday, holy Saturday, Easter Sunday theme, right? It starts in the darkness. It starts with almost like a starts in the confessional with the confession of sin, but then it ends with this light moment, right? Where he sees he. He comes to this realization, going to confession at like 3:00 AM or something like that, which, I mean, which priest hears confessions at 3:00 AM, but that's, um, but he, he. He's asking father, like, if there's something easy to do, is it okay to do that? Or should I do the right thing? And, and he comes to this like inner realization and of course that's when the priest is getting all into it and like being way too talkative and, um, and, uh, but that's the whole point of the film. It's like that his vocation is the fixer, which is a form of salvation, right? He's the one who sets things in right order, makes things work well. And so he's entering into this world where there's chaos and division and he comes in to make it right. I mean, even, um, and, and that's, and it's just in this moment that he realizes that his vocation, his calling in life is to be this fixer. And it's through that, that he kind of comes to this resurrection moment, the end of the film, where you see on the water tower, behold, and this kind of glory in the sky. Because throughout the rest of the film, God's meant to be absent, right? I mean, there's that great scene when they're doing like an overview of some of the opening shots to hit to the film of the film, um, where it says divine presence to be shot. And I think that's a great image of the absence of God in the film, right? It's it's, it's, it's, that's the, my God, my God, why are you forsaken me? And Eddie max entering into this kind of hell until he kind of comes out through his accepting vocation. And I think that that's a very Catholic notion of identity. So vocation is where you find your, your fulfillment and, and that's what he does. And he finds, finds us redemption. I mean, there's just, there's also the goddess split man is split theme to the film, like this, this dialectic, but that's a whole other thing. It's just, it's, I could go on about this movie forever. I love it so much.
Mike00:45:02Well, not really having read or, or, or thought much. About it before I rewatched it for this show, but knowing that we were gonna talk about the sort of Catholic themes of this, I was paying attention to see what jumped out at me. And, and many of the things that, that you mentioned there, father, that, that, that jumped out at me. I also thought the, um, speaking of vocation, like the relationship that Maddox has with his wife and with his family is very interestingly, uh, uh, demonstrated, right? He, he, he takes a phone call from her. At one point, he seems, you know, I guess we first find out that he feels ashamed and that he has sinned against her in the confessional in the very beginning, because he's lied to her about smoking. He's said he's quit, but he's had three or four cigarettes and then he takes a call. He's a little annoyed, but, but he sort of like immediately is, uh, you know, it's something about his, his son and, and, and, and baseball or something like that. And he's concerned. And then, and then he goes home. And, uh, he goes home late to eat dinner. And yeah, I think even on my second re you know, watch, I was like, I can't remember what the relationship is like with the wife and, um, he goes home and there's this kind of, uh, very, uh, almost sacred or, or, or, but simple kind of relationship that they have where she's understanding of his, all, all the work that he's doing. And he is very apologetic. About what he's been doing. And then they have this exchange that's, uh, about what, what he should do, uh, with this job offer. And I don't know, it's, it was sort of, I was reminded, oh yeah, that's a very, it's very different than like what you normally expect, like a, this movie to do to depict this hard charging, you know, man about the studio is his home life. But there's, um, there's a kind of holiness in, in his home life. Um, I don't know if you have, I don't know if that's true. If that's, that's not very sophisticated, but that's, that was sort of my observation.
Sonny00:47:11Well, it's, I mean, look what you're, what you're kind of getting at here is it, it's, it's a profoundly conservative film. Like this is like, unless, unless we are taking all of this to be mockery of, of the family and the church and like the idea of the communist conspiracy and like, I wouldn't put it past the Coen's precisely to be, to be having a bit of fun at the expense of, but like it just, if you just take it like straight forward. Straight faced on the text on the screen, it's like, this is, this is like, it is, it is a, it is a profoundly like almost reactionary movie. It's their own searching for faith too, I think in some ways, I mean, the whole climactic scene with George Clooney where this, I mean, and Clooney plays the idiot actor so well, like it's, he, he plays the role so perfectly, but then suddenly, and then that's almost almost, it's almost comedic that suddenly he's delivering this monologue perfectly and you get drawn into the drama of the monologue and, and, but he misses that last word. If I had, but if I had, but cut, say, say, and then they go, oh, son of a bitch, right? You know, it's just like, it's almost had it, man, Clancy Brown, Clancy Brown and the great, great bit rolling, you know, but it's like, I found that that was kind of a personal testimony on their part. Like it's this thing they see very, it's very beautiful, but they can't quite make that last step.
Mike00:48:46Other thoughts. Okay. So that musical, that, that, that the song in the, in the, with the, with the Navy, no dames, like, like you have to rewatch it to like pick up on all of the joke. Like it, it is, it is like a Simpsons episode in terms of just like all the little jokes and the lyrics and, and, and the. And the, and the, and the choreography it's, it's so funny.
Sonny00:49:12I, I, Mike, I just want to, I want to be clear on something that you, the, the musical number in the, the musical movie where the sailors are dancing with each other and singing about how there's no dames and they're, it took you, it took you a few minutes to get the layers there. No, no, no, no, no. Is that the, is that what you're saying?
Mike00:49:30That's the, that's the, but it, the, the lyrics of the song or like the little things going on in the background and all that. There's a lot, there's a lot of extra stuff going on as well.
JVL00:49:42It's a great sequence. It's also a, it's also a parody of South Pacific. Yeah. So it's, I mean, on top of all, like you said, it's working multiple layers, right? It works as a parody of an existing thing, plus a parody of the way these movies, these movies and these scenes were shot, but then it's better than all of them. And then it's got all this funny stuff going on just on its own.
Sonny00:50:07So, yeah, there's, there's a fun parlor game to be played with trying to pair up all of the, uh, the, the various, you know, movies and actors to their real life counterparts. And, you know, I, I, can I ask you about Tilda Swinton?
JVL00:50:22Yeah. So the, the only part that seemed kind of unconnected from everything else was the Tilda Swinton's two characters. And it was, they were enjoyable. Like it was, it was nice bits of business, but I didn't quite understand. And what they were doing there, father Harrison, do you have thoughts?
Sonny00:50:45I mean, I think they, they become essential pieces that move the plot along. Right. Because like without them there, Aaron Aaron's character would not, or, um, um, Alden's character would not notice her who she's talking to, which turns out to be Channing Tatum, who is the communist. Like, I think that they are pieces that move and also bring in this whole theme of this, this risque rumor around as we, uh, on as wings as Eagles. And so I think that it's an essential character as a connecting piece more than anything else. And probably, I mean, I don't know much about it, but it's probably also a bit of a spoof again on even like the gossip columnists of the age and stuff like this as well. Right. Right. I mean, I, this is like just within, within the, the world of like parodying 1951 Hollywood, right?
JVL00:51:37Yeah.
Sonny00:51:38Yeah. Right. Exactly. You need, you need the, you need the, the gossip columnist who is there, who can like, who can be spun to whichever way you need. You need somebody. There's a reason Tilda Swinton plays both these characters. Do you need a journalist who's gonna hype, uh, up that this, this guy is, uh, uh, you know, is a secretly, uh, homosexual who slept his way into stardom. Do you need a gossip columnist who's going to, uh, go after the red? And like a, like, it just depends on what, what you, what you need.
Mike00:52:11Um, I have a question about all of the actors, all of the like terrific actors that this, uh, that this movie has, because like I was thinking about, so I guess Scarlett Johansson does have like more than one scene and, uh, and, and Channing Tatum does have more than one scene, but like all these like little bit parts, like David Krumholz plays one, like this, one of the communist writers.
JVL00:52:36So sitting in the back wall, exactly. He's like five words.
Mike00:52:40Exactly. And it's in, in, in, in a weird way, it remind the whole movie, not just the Krumholz connection, but like, it did remind me of the way that like Oppenheimer has like all of these terrific actors in it. Um, and even if they just get like one part, I don't know. I don't know if there's a reason for that, that they were able to, to get all that. Everybody wanted to be in a Coen brothers movie, I suppose.
JVL00:53:02But, um, it's like watching an all-star team, right? I mean, it is. Part of this feels like, like watching an all-star game versus like a normal regular season NBA game, right?
Mike00:53:15That's yeah. That's good.
Sonny00:53:18Did you guys, uh, did you guys see that the Highlander himself? Yes. Christopher Lambert is there. The director, of course, who enjoys physical, like, you know, he played Raiden in mortal combat. Yeah.
Mike00:53:33That's so funny. Um, all right. Well, like what, what else? Any, any other thoughts on this, on this, uh, on this terrific movie?
Sonny00:53:41I'm curious if you guys like, go ahead, go ahead.
JVL00:53:45JBL. No, I just, something I said of other, somebody who's down here. I do think that we only really have two legitimately intellectual filmmakers and it's the Coen's and Nolan.
Mike00:54:03And what they're doing movies together.
JVL00:54:06Okay, well, um, you know, up until they split, right? I mean the, the two of them and maybe Greta Gerwig will become like that after she's done more than three movies, but, uh, like they're just operating and, and Nolan is operating at an entirely different valence than everybody else who currently directs in film. And that is as much an accident of history, like as anything else, because they, they actually say this, what they share is that both the Coen's and Nolan, they are intellectual filmmakers, but they are interested in making films. Whereas a lot of, you know, they're, they're very smart guys in the indie circuit who make movies that are seen by 15 people who are interested in doing like intellectual exercises, right? But they're just using film as a medium.
Sonny00:55:02And, uh, no, this is, this is an actual. This is a film.
JVL00:55:07And I mean, like even the way they film that and the initial scene where we see able to
Sonny00:55:11handle, yeah, that makes sense. The Alden scene. It's like, it just, it looks so Western. It's even though like, you're not actually seeing it filmed as a Western right now. It's just, but like the way they change the coloring of the screen and everything, it's, it's just, it makes you, um, it draws you into that and it draws you into this idea that we're giving you something high quality. We want you to experience this deeply. We want you to think about this deep. Because we've actually, we're not going to talk down to our audience. And I think it succeeds at that in such a way because, because there's all those different levels, you might not catch all the levels all the time, but because of those levels, you're able to, you can find something that resonates with you as a person or whatever. And there are some people who will probably will not notice a lot of the Catholic themes of the film and just love it as an homage to 1950s Hollywood and that's fine. And that's great. Right. But it's, uh, it's just such a, it's such a perfect film in my books. It really, it just does everything.
Mike00:56:06So, well, does it, does it remind me how many more movies to the Coen's make together? After, after this, what came after this?
Sonny00:56:17It was after this one, they made Ballad of Buster Scruggs and that was it. I mean, it's, it's, it is interesting that their last, the last three movies they made together, uh, it was inside Llewyn Davis, uh, hail Caesar and Ballad of Buster Scruggs were all at least in part. About the difficulties of making art within the systems that they're the, the artists in question we're, we're working within, uh, why do you know, Caesar's the least of them.
JVL00:56:50Why did they split?
Sonny00:56:53I think they look, they, I mean, I, I couldn't, I would not, I would not feel comfortable saying definitively why they split. Cause I don't think they have said definitively why they split. But I do think part of it, I do, I think, I mean, I think part of it is just, you know, they want, they, they have very different interests as somebody. And I will say as somebody who has seen both drive away dolls and the tragedy of Macbeth, you can, you can, you see the component parts of the Cohen brothers split apart. And it's like, it's the way I I'm writing about it for this week, driveway dolls. I'm writing about it for this week. And the way I describe it in my review is like, it's like one of those old comic book stories where like a. Villain splits a hero into two separate characters and they both have like defining traits of that character. And you can see them. Yeah, that's what it's like watching these two movies. It's, it's like, oh, you got the one guy with the kind of high toned. Visual sensibility. And then you got the guy who makes the dildo jokes and like those two, those two things, they come together and they're great and they're different. And they separately, they're a little atomized and not, not quite as. Successful as they are together. I, word is though, is Rupert rumor has it that they are working on something together here in the next.
Mike00:58:13Oh, that would be great. Yeah.
Sonny00:58:15You great here. So we'll, we'll see. We'll see. It would be, it'd be nice to have them back. I was trying to TV. I was thinking about your point about the intellectual directors and it is interesting. I mean, I think there's a, there's a case to be made for Denny Villeneuve, who is doing some interesting stuff. Um, uh, or like a guy, like, I mean, his, his time is gone, but like Ed's wick, like made a bunch of, you know, kind of, uh, high toned, uh, but also big budget, epicky sort of things, you know, movies like glory or the last samurai or blood diamond. Um, yeah, but I don't know. It's interesting.
JVL00:58:52These are, well, it's different. I mean, the person I would say maybe you could put in that would be Wes Anderson, but. Yeah. The, the interesting question for me is how the economics of film worked out. So that, uh, a director is able to make an, uh, make multiple intellectual films with big ideas because that, I mean, you do have to make money, right? I mean, you can't, you can't just do micro budgets the way they, I mean,
Mike00:59:21they, they, well, is it, I mean, isn't it like a, I mean, is there something similar going on with the old, like, uh, you know, actors like one for you, one for me kind of thing where, because the, the, the, the Cohen's first big hit was raising. Arizona, right? And, uh, I mean, I know they had made, they had made, uh, you know, Miller's crossing and blood simple before that, but.
Sonny00:59:44Well, they made blood simple before that Miller's crossing came later.
Mike00:59:47Did Miller's crossing come after, uh, okay. Um, Miller's crossing came after, uh, after raising Arizona, but, but bottom line is they, that was a big hit, right? Raising Arizona. I mean, relative, relative. Then they make, uh, Fargo. Yeah.
JVL00:59:59Fargo was the thing that really put them on the map.
Mike01:00:02Right. And then, and then, and then big Lebowski, right? So like it's. It's sort of like it grows a little bit and they probably bank some. Goodwill in.
Sonny01:00:11Hey, uh, you guys want to guess what the, uh, cinema score on hail Caesar was?
Mike01:00:15It wasn't like a C C read this.
Sonny01:00:18Yeah. It's either, either a C or a C minus.
JVL01:00:20I'm not surprised at that because I thought the trailers and the job that was done selling that movie were terrible at the time. Yeah. All you do is like show cavalcade of stars.
Mike01:00:30You like, I seem to remember like the end of the trailer or like the, the punchline of the trailer is. Like George Clooney, like collapsing from, from being, uh, from being, you know, drugged and like, that's kind of what, that has nothing really to do
JVL01:00:47with greenlit by a studio. I mean, there, there, there is no world in which hail Caesar could have been a financial success.
Sonny01:00:54Well, there's, I, this is another reason why I get, I get the sense that they have, why again, they, they made three movies to end their run together as three movies that are about like getting art made in the system and how hard that is. Uh, and again, the Ballad of Buster Scruggs segment is the one with Liam Neeson and the, um, the guy would know arms or legs who he trades in for the pecking chicken. Uh, and like that, and that's basically what happened to the Coen's. They got traded in for the pecking chicken. The chicken is the, you know, the comic book movies and the big, big tentpole spectacles and that sort of thing.
Mike01:01:32I would love to see an essay or something, maybe some somebody's done this, like comparing. Hail Caesar to Barton Fink, you know, which is sort of like, uh, sure.
Sonny01:01:41Somebody somewhere, I'm sure. So, and I don't care for Barton Fink.
Mike01:01:44It's a weird movie. It's a weird movie. I actually don't like it either, but it's, it's like, it's one of the
Sonny01:01:49few Cohen movies I simply just don't like it's that, and, uh, the lady killers, even intolerable cruelty has, has, has its moments.
Mike01:02:00All right. Uh, any final thoughts on hail Caesar? No, sir. If you haven't watched it, please watch it. Go watch it. Absolutely.
Sonny01:02:10Um, did you guys, is it streaming? Did you watch it on, uh, you have to rent it on Amazon. I, I have it on a Blu-ray. Yeah, me too. I mean, obviously as you know, men of men of taste and good character, exactly. Father Harrison and I own the things that we, yes, exactly.
Mike01:02:29Uh, all right. Well, uh, that is, that is all the time we are giving to this episode. Go to sub beacon.com to join us. Uh, and father Harrison, thank you so much for joining us. We will talk to you next time. Um, what is the, who is Scarlett Johansson's like real life counterpart in this? Okay. Cause like, obviously Alden Eric Reich is. Uh, is like, um, uh, Roy Rogers, I guess. Like, yeah. So nobody knows.
Sonny01:03:11He's so good in this too. Like we didn't really talk about how good all, all the Nairn. Like it's, it's funny because he, his career, he has had a very weird career where like he has breakout in hail Caesar. Then he gets cast in solo and that's a disaster, but he's very good level, not for reasons that are unrelated to him, but like his agent should never have let him, let him take that role.
JVL01:03:35Just because like you, how do you say no to it?
Sonny01:03:39That was, that was never going to, it was never going to work. That's how you say no to it.
JVL01:03:42It's never going to work being asked by Disney to star as Han Solo. And this is your chance to become your generation's Harrison Ford and make a bazillion dollars.
Sonny01:03:52You can't live up to it. You can't live.
JVL01:03:54I cannot understand why you cannot live up to that performance. You are offered that part. You have to take it. You can't.
Sonny01:04:00There's no universe in which that's, that's a successful role for him, even if the movie had been a hit, people still would have been like, Hey, he's no Harrison Ford. However, uh, then, and then this year or last year, he's in Oppenheimer. He's got the great role as the, uh, the, the guy walking Robert Downey Jr. Through his Senate hearing. He's wonderful. Yeah. No, he's, he's so good. This is something it is. And he's like, I think he's actually meant he's like, he, well, well, Josh Bolin's character, the one who is the main thread, I would say Alden's character is kind of a thread through the film too, because he's very essential to the plot and without him, nothing, none of this would come together.
Mike01:04:39And he's got kind of like a hero complex or, you know, like, like voice. He's a great man. Yes. Yes.
Sonny01:04:46What you see is what you get with him. Like, like that. I mean, that's the thing. It, the film is about image and reality and his character brings the two together. That's yeah. Yeah. Like there's, there's this, there's this moment where he and Carlotta are being like set up by, by the church. The, the studio, I mean, and the, and the, and, and like, there's a way that you could look at it cynically, like, oh, look at this kind of sham, but they're just like decent, nice people having fun together and they get along and it's like, oh, this is, this is so charming. It's not cynical at all. They're just fixing to be friendly. It's great. Well, I think that's, that's it. It is actually kind of an uplifting film, even though it's got struggle and everything, it gives you a sense of hope about humanity and life and that there are, you know, if that there, there is some decency in the world and we need that once in a while.
?01:05:36Yeah.
Sonny01:05:37Yeah. I don't know. Lost you a bit there at the end. That's okay. I'm sure it's fine.
Spot something wrong in this episode? Suggest a correction →
Comments
Loading…