#233. 'Killers of the Flower Moon'
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The main event is Killers of the Flower Moon (2023), Martin Scorsese's three-and-a-half-hour drama about the murders of the Osage people over their oil headrights, and only Sonny actually finished it: he calls it "great cinema" and a "suffocating accumulation of evil," arguing the punishing length is the whole point and that trapping an audience in a theater is precisely what movie theaters are for. JVL, despite having read the book and being friends with author David Grann, bailed at the one-hour-nineteen mark, saying the hour-plus he watched was fabulous — DiCaprio, Lily Gladstone, and De Niro (playing "the devil") are all terrific — but that the film force-feeds you like a goose being fattened for foie gras. Mike made it to one hour fifty-two, loved Gladstone but actively disliked Robert De Niro's wandering, uncommitted accent and found Leo's Ernest such a "dumb shit" that he resented the film centering on him rather than on the FBI/structural-racism story from Grann's book. JVL closes with Grann's origin story for the book: a torn panoramic photo hanging in the Osage museum, missing a section because it contained the face of "the devil," King Hale. Before any of that, the opening third runs long: Sonny confesses he's fully embraced old age, alternating evenings between Eichmann in Jerusalem and a large-print Sudoku book his wife bought at the dollar store; JVL recounts a Monster Jam pit-party trip to Newark, NJ, marveling that Grave Digger somehow wins every crowd-voted event and that half the drivers are now women; and Mike, riding a wave of Girl Scout cookies bought from Sonny's daughter, launches an extended cookie ranking (Thin Mints belong in the freezer, Do-si-dos are underrated, coconut and Samoas are garbage). They close with a Best Picture rundown, agreeing Oppenheimer and Killers are the year's two real contenders and that Barbie doesn't deserve the win.
From the show notes
AKA, The devil came down to Oklahoma.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00When this money started coming, we should have known it came with something else. They're like buzzards circling our people.
Sonny00:00:12We're still warriors.
Guest00:00:20I ought to kill these white men who killed my family.
Mike00:00:30Welcome to the Sub-Beacon Podcast. I am your co-host, Mike Warren. I'm joined, as always, by my two co-hosts who do love that money, sir. Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Join us over at Sub-Beacon.com where you can become a patron. Get episodes every Friday or, in some cases, Saturday, which is, I think, when this episode is posting. Get bonus episodes on Mondays. Join the conversation. Get involved in the comments. You can do all of that by becoming a patron. And you can do that by going to Sub-Beacon.com. We're going to be talking about killers of the flower moon in this episode. But first, let's see how everyone is doing. Sonny Bunch, let's start with you this week.
Sonny00:01:23I feel like I have truly accepted being an old man because let me tell you how I have spent my last couple of evenings.
Mike00:01:30This is a big stretch for you, by the way, to be an old man after after the kids have gone to bed.
Sonny00:01:35You know, usually when the kids go to bed, I watch I watch a movie. I catch up on, you know, something I have to watch for work. But there's there's like there's really just nothing out right now. It's very it's very frustrating for a movie person. I did watch I watched this thing on Netflix called 60 Minutes, which is basically like it's a it's it's almost a real time. A adventure of a MMA guy trying to get across the city to get to his kid's birthday, but he's got to fight a bunch of criminals. It's not very good, but it is like a perfect VOD action movie, which is what Netflix should be investing in. Neither here nor there.
JVL00:02:15Two of these movies like 15 years ago, there's like a Johnny Depp movie, The Nick of Time, where I think the conceit was kind of. Yeah, I think in real time there was another one like they both came out on the same similar similar.
Sonny00:02:28It doesn't matter. That's neither here nor. But so what I have found myself doing is alternating in the evenings between reading Eichmann in Jerusalem, which I had picked up after watching the Zone of Interest, which is the Holocaust movie that nominated for Best Picture. I can't imagine we'll be doing the Zone of Interest on this show unless you guys really want to. We could. It's fine. Anyway, I picked that back up. I read it back in college. I was reading it again. Bad people, the Nazis. Turns out. Oh, couldn't couldn't see that one coming. Real jerks, not real jerks, real jerks. And then when I'm when I get tired of being depressed by the Holocaust, I pick up a I'm going to show you what I pick up. My lovely wife was at the like the dollar store or something, buying something for a party. And she she got me a large print Sudoku puzzle book. And I've just been I've just been just been going through these one. After a very Vic Matus thing, it's it's very like it's it's not it's nice that it's large print because then I can write all the little numbers that I need to cross out in. But this is how I've been spending my evenings for the last four or five days. I read a little bit of World War Two slash Holocaust history and then I do a Sudoku. I think I'm officially 80 years old at this point. I think I have I have transcended. I have like skipped right past middle age and into old age. It's fantastic.
Mike00:03:57You really took like the. The express lane to to old age there, because like I do, I live on a cul-de-sac with a lot of retired people. And I figured out very quickly once sort of the last couple of them have retired in the last couple of years that like the reason that old people do these things is because they don't have anything else to do. And so like it becomes like books of. Either like reading like Lee Child type books, you know, by that, they just keep getting them by Amazon or doing these little puzzles. And it's like a little, you know, you're keeping your you're keeping your mind sharp, Sonny, and that's what's really important. So I'm proud of you.
Sonny00:04:43I do my best. I do my best.
Mike00:04:44All right. From old man Sonny JVL, what's going on with you?
JVL00:04:48I have a book club recommendation for you, fellas. My best buddy, Chris, gave me. Are you guys? Um, Richard Stark readers. Richard Stark is the pen name of Donald Westlake, Bill Crystal, big Donald Westlake.
Mike00:05:08Yes, that's right.
JVL00:05:09And I think the Westlake books, which I've never read, are kind of funny. And the Stark books are really hard boiled. And I believe there was a Mel Gibson adaptation of one of the Stark books, the Parker books payback. Yeah, that's right. And anyway, Chris found this for me. So Darwin. Cook, who Sonny, I assume, you know. Yeah, yeah. Mike, I don't know if you do.
Mike00:05:34He's a comic book guy.
JVL00:05:35Uh, he has like some sort of preexisting relationship with the Westlake estate and convinced them that he could do graphic novel adaptations of the Richard Stark novels. And, uh, it's sensational. It's so good and so much fun. And they're in collected paperbacks from IDW. Uh, if interested, people should read them. But what I want to tell you about was that I went to a monster truck rally. Monster Jam Sunday, Sunday, Monster Jam Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Yes.
Sonny00:06:13And, uh, the actual Monster Jam, the actual Monster Jam, the branded Monster Jam. It wasn't that is random.
JVL00:06:21OK, this was not the lepin Monster Jam. Uh, and I am afraid that we're going to have to talk politics and it would. We try to stay away from that on this show. We do. But we went to, uh, the Monster Jam and we got pit party passes. The pit party. I have either of you done the Monster Jam.
Sonny00:06:44No, I have been to, I have taken my kids to Monster Jam, but it is, uh, we have not done the, the like pit party.
Mike00:06:53So, uh, JVL, JVL, before you move on, where in the United States? States of America. Did you go to Monster Jam? Where was it held? Newark, New Jersey.
JVL00:07:05Got it. Okay. Continue. So here, here is something, uh, there are four Monster Jams always happening simultaneously. So this is not like professional wrestling where there's like two WWEs like traveling around like the raw and the smack. There are four of these happening in each region and it's like the circus. They just, you know, you do four days in a city. You move, you have three days to move the cars and you're in the next city and they're just constantly touring. And, uh, somehow it's all like a sport with a leaderboard and points it, whatever. Right. It is basically like wrestling in that way. Uh, what's, what's important is that, uh, if you ever have the chance to do this again, the pit party with young children is way, way better than the Monster Jam self. In fact, I would say you could skip the Monster Jam monster truck rally part and only do the pit party. Because what happens is for like 20 bucks a person, you get to go down onto the floor of the arena and walk around through the dirt and all the trucks are on display and their drivers are there and you get to, to touch the monster trucks and get pictures with them and meet the drivers and shake their hands and get autographs and pictures with them. And I would say for our boys who are seven years old, so Chris and I took our kids there and for them, that was far and away the best part. In fact, the Monster Jam itself was a little bit of a, I'm going to say a letdown, but wasn't, wasn't as awesome. But here's where we have to talk about some politics. Okay. Sonny.
Sonny00:08:57Yes. Are you there?
JVL00:08:59I'm sorry. With the camera off, it's hard to tell. Yeah. When we were at the pit party and we were going around and meeting the drivers, fully half, half of the drivers were lady drivers, lady monster truck drivers. Can you even believe that such thing exists?
Sonny00:09:23And well, yes, because I've been to the Monster Jam before.
JVL00:09:29I, I was looking around at all because, you know, we went to a matinee show, which is like all parents with their kids. Sure. And I would say that close to half of the kids there were little girls. And so it's almost like Monster Jam is doing their own woke radical DEI in order to make more money. They are going woke with their lady drivers. But are they going broke? No, no black drivers, of course, but, but with their lady driver. Anyway, I just, well, it's one of these moments where I was reminded that like, look, when you do a girl superhero movie, sometimes like girls really respond to it because they've been monster trucks. You put some lady drivers in it and, you know, give like seven year old girls something. They, they, they wind up liking monster trucks too.
Sonny00:10:18Uh, let me just say that it's not surprising though, that they have women drivers at these things because the whole point of the monster truck is to crash, to crush other cars. No accidents, you know, to flip it. They don't do flip it over, you know? So of course the, the lady drivers are going to be there. I mean, that's like their natural habitat.
JVL00:10:40Oh, Sonny. They, uh, they don't, so they don't crush other cars anymore. When I was a young'un in the original like Bigfoot, right? Remember Bigfoot, the original monster? The whole idea was like, yeah, he'd jump off of a berm and crush school buses and drive over the rest of the school buses. They were getting crunched up. Well, it's much more about acrobatics. It's, uh, you know, can you make your truck stand on its nose for 30 seconds and then immediately go into reverse and engineer a flip and then bounce off of one wheel? Uh, but, but so as for the WWE aspect of it, so in theory they have four events and these events are scored, but they are scored by you, the people. So everybody has their phones and the monster. Truck competitors do their thing and, uh, everybody is supposed to vote on how their performance was, you know, in their, the freestyle run or the big air challenge or whatnot. And the monster jam people who probably are being monitored by price waterhouse Coopers then tell you who won. And I mean, I was shocked. I was really shocked because at my monster jam, I would say a good 75 to 85% of the people there were wearing gravedigger gear and gravedigger one, every event. And I did think to myself, hold on now, hold on now. What do we really think about, uh, about the integrity of these results?
Mike00:12:17Yeah. I thought there was a silent majority of, uh, of, of non gravedigger fans, but yeah.
JVL00:12:24So anyway, I just wanted, I am slightly interested in how much of it is like WWE. How much of it is scripted versus not. And, uh, but it was, it was quick question. How loud was it so loud that I did the most ear protection I could. And I had a headache for hours afterwards. Okay. Yeah, that's crazy.
Sonny00:12:49It's crazy that we, we literally bought like ear muffler things for our kids. Uh, and I wore a little foam here.
JVL00:12:57Oh, the film things were. Are nearly enough. G money had foam, the foam in ear thing with then like a serious, like the, the steel noise canceling head, uh, not noise canceling, the steel headphones that I use for blowing leaves over top of that. I was wearing my noise canceling headphones with the noise canceling turned all the way up and it like it worked. But even so, uh, after three, God, this thing went on forever.
Sonny00:13:26Yeah, we went, we went last year. And, uh, or maybe, maybe it was even the year before that. And like the, we, we left at halftime. We left at the halftime because our, I, I, you know, our, our, our son was, was, I guess three at the time or a little older than that. So maybe it was four. Um, so he was like real antsy, uh, after like an hour and change of that. And it was like, I can't, I can't stay here for another.
JVL00:13:53Well, the thing is they padded out. They have these four events that they compete in, but only two of them are like the first event, which is the racing where they're racing around in a little circle. That's fun. And then the freestyle thing is fun. And the other two things, the middle are needless.
Mike00:14:08What are they? What are the middle events?
JVL00:14:11Ah, it's like, uh, a big air and then a reverse flip contest or something. I, the truth is I can barely tell you, uh, I can just tell you that it was boring watching like eight different trucks, you know, in a row attempt the these things, like just, just make this whole thing a 90 minute, um, a 90 minute thing where we do some racing, some, uh, motor cross bikes, jumping 80 feet in the air in the middle, and then the freestyle that's all, and then everybody leaves and
Mike00:14:43goes home, but you're missing something, which is bring back the crushing. I mean, that's, that's what's awesome about monster trucks, right? Like what, why have they gotten rid of the crushing? Is it a liability thing? Is it a, uh, is it too violent and they don't want to promote violence?
Sonny00:14:58It's probably expensive to crush cars these days, cars that's gold.
JVL00:15:04Well, I mean, so expensive, but also just think about the logistics of doing in an, in an arena, right? Yeah. How do you get the cars in and out? How do you mean just putting on a show? It's much, much easier to just build a bunch of ramps and tabletops
Mike00:15:20and let people jump and stuff.
JVL00:15:22So just kind of hope that the trucks themselves crash.
Mike00:15:25Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the only. Contribution I have having never been to monster truck in my life, uh, to this conversation is, uh, I don't know if you guys have ever done this because JVL, I know you guys go to a different part of the beach, um, or, or did go to a different part of the beach, but when we have driven down from Northern Virginia to the outer banks of North Carolina, you pass by a restaurant and, um, and tourist trap type place, it's the. Grave digger cafe, uh, because, because the grave digger originated in this, uh, rural part of, yeah, Northeast, North Carolina. Dennis Anderson is the original, the Anderson family.
JVL00:16:12And that's exactly right. The, that's right. So we met the kid, the kid who was driving our grave digger because of grave diggers is an Anderson. And he's like one of the grandkids or one of the younger, I don't, I don't know what it is. I think he's probably one of the older grandkids.
Mike00:16:25So they've got here. It's like, it's probably. Like an hour and a hour and a half, depending on traffic out from, from the outer banks. Um, and it's just, uh, you know, it's just a restaurant roadside, like restaurant, get hot dogs for the kids or whatever. And then it's got all of this, um, all of this grave digger stuff. So it's got like a mounted on top of a giant pole, grave digger truck. Um, you can go on like grave digger can like pull a trailer and you can ride. And it goes over these big Hills of, of, of, of dirt. And, uh, you can buy, we got, we still have the, from a few years ago. Now the, uh, the cup, the grave digger cafe cup commemorative cup.
JVL00:17:13So do you guys understand why is grave digger, the Hulk Hogan of monster trucks? Like, what is it about grave digger that just makes everybody flock to it?
Mike00:17:23It's all, it's all like marketing, right? I mean, it's all, um, so. I'm reading the Wikipedia page right now for grave digger. And what it says is that, uh, in the late eighties, um, the grave digger two was, was created and it said it was during this time that the reputation for wild passes was developed and the popularity of the truck increased. It was also during this time that bad to the bone began to be used as the truck's theme
JVL00:17:56song TNT.
Mike00:17:58TNT recognized his rising popularity and began promoting grave digger heavily, especially for races on the tough tracks syndicated TV series. So I do remember when TNT would show, uh, would show monster truck events like that was like between WCW wrestling and it was a great time to be a kid in the nineties. Um, and, uh, and so, yeah, so that's why it was like, it was like a perfect meshing of marketing and coming up through the televised monster truck era. So there's your, there's your little story about great, but how are you all started at this little corner of, uh, North, uh, Northeast, North Carolina, uh, motor sports do exactly. What's going on, man? Oh, not much. I mean, there's nothing really to speak of. I did want to say, I did want to talk a little bit and I don't know if the show, I can't remember if the show has ever discussed girl scout cookies, um, but I've got a lot of girl scout cookies on the mind because I have a lot of girl scout cookies and in large part, thanks to, uh, Sonny's daughter who, uh, we bought some girl scout cookies from and who sent us a very wonderful note in the mail thanking us for buying girl scout cookies. Um, and I don't know if we need to do a ranking of girl scout cookies or we just need to discuss them, but I, first of all, like I could like eat an entire sleeve. And one in one sitting, they're like, I just, whether it's thin mints or, uh, or the tag alongs, this is controversial. I know I, I'm not a huge fan of the Samoas. I just don't, I don't like garbage cookie. Yeah. I don't like, uh, coconut. So, um, but like the reason this occurred to me is because last night, uh, it right before I went to bed, I had a little, little rumble in the tummy and, uh, pulled out, went to see what was left. Of our stash. Um, and they had the tree foils, the shortbread, the tree foils. And, you know, damn it. If I didn't like house like five or six of those things, just standing over the, uh, the kitchen sink and it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's objectively like the worst of the Girl Scout cookies, like put some Samoas aside. I don't like them, but I know people like them. My wife loves them, but like shortbread cookies, about as basic as you get. And still, I'm just like, like, like there's some thing about these overpriced, like not that good cookies that just, just hit. Right. Am I wrong?
Sonny00:20:36No, no, no, they're, uh, at least with fentanyl. That's why they're, they're, they're just not good. No, I, I, uh, I am, uh, I, the only ones I regularly eat are thin mints and I will, I'll eat like if, if I wasn't like very actively watching what I was eating, I could easily just destroy it. I could destroy an entire sleeve in like three minutes. I would eat them all. Um, so I have to be, I have to be very careful around them. Uh, underrated, underrated cookie. The, uh, I think it's called the adventure full, which is kind of like a brownie sort of thing.
Mike00:21:12It's, uh, this is the newer premium.
Sonny00:21:15Yeah, that's right. I think, I don't know. I, but, and then the s'mores are pretty good too. I, I, I am with you on Samoa's. I hate coconut, hate coconut. Uh, coconut's a disgusting flavor and topping. I don't like that. I don't like the texture of it. I don't like the taste of it. I don't like anything about coconut.
?00:21:31Okay.
Mike00:21:31Well, more, more s'mores for, for my wife and for coconut lovers. Um, do-si-dos, right? The peanut butter cookies. Those are, those are terrific. Those are fantastic. Um, question Sonny, do you put thin mints as I do in the freezer?
Sonny00:21:46Absolutely.
Mike00:21:47Yeah, absolutely. It's the way to go. JVL, do you have any thoughts on Girl Scout cookies? You're not a.
JVL00:21:51No, we, uh, I'm just happy to have that. My girls are out of Girl Scouts that I don't have to do this anymore because I I, I get the idea that like, yeah, we're going to put our kids into a activity. That's a, an MLM and just getting them ready for, uh, for Lula road days, you know, 20 years hence.
Mike00:22:09Come on, man. But was it a burden on you? Was it a burden on you to get to sell?
JVL00:22:16It's always a burden. It's always a burden on the parents.
Sonny00:22:18Yeah, that's true.
JVL00:22:19But everything's a burden on the parents. So what? Everything's a burden.
Sonny00:22:23Do you remember having children as a burden on the parents?
JVL00:22:25Do you remember in high school when you're whatever, when you're banned or your chess club or your football team would have fundraisers and you'd have to like go sell candy bars? You remember this? Sure. And what this was, was really asking the parents to bail out your kid. Right. And to, to the parent is eventually going to pay $50 worth of the candy bars that the kid either ate by himself or gave out to friends or forgot to sell. And I, I just, the truth is. The school organization takes in so little of that money. Anyway, they're getting at most of 50, 50 split. Most of the time it's closer to like 30% split. Just, just tell the parents, Hey, could you give us $15 in this way? We won't all have to pretend that your kid is out there becoming the world's greatest vacuum salesman or something. We just do $15. Right.
Mike00:23:23Yes.
JVL00:23:24I mean, I'll just tell me how much money you need and I will write the check. I'll write the check for money to you. And none of us have to do this thing where we pretend that our children are salesmen.
Mike00:23:33Well, then, then, then why do anything JVL? Why, why, why even?
JVL00:23:36That's an excellent question.
Mike00:23:38Why are we doing anything? Okay. I don't know. I mean, I also grew up like my parents felt no need. And I, and so, and therefore I felt no need to compete on the fundraising things. Like, it was like, I just sell, like sell what you want. And then like, and, and like,
Sonny00:23:58you won't wait to do it.
Mike00:23:59Yeah. Like who cares if you're the number one seller, we wouldn't help.
JVL00:24:02Number one seller. We would be told you're responsible for selling at least 25 boxes of grapefruits.
Mike00:24:08Yeah. You know what my mom would say to that? We'll see. We'll see. And then when we didn't big deal, then she paid, then she, if there was ever, it was then pay the, the difference of what we owe. But like, but like it was, there was no pressure to do it. And, and like, it was like, yeah, just do what you can and move on.
JVL00:24:27As America's number one rule follower, I thought that a teacher telling me I had to sell 25 things of grapefruit meant that if I didn't, it would go on my permanent record and I wouldn't get into medical school.
Sonny00:24:37So I fucking hawked the shit out of those grapefruits.
JVL00:24:40And right now the idea of sending one of my children to like knock on the door of some neighbor that I may or may not know, asking like, would you like to buy them? So my cross country team is selling wrapping paper. Would you like to like, I would not, I would never inflict my children on some random adult. Because they're selling something for school. That's horrible. Who would do that?
Mike00:25:02You know, there was a time in this country where everybody was neighborly and everybody wanted to help out the, you know, the, the, the local basketball team.
JVL00:25:11Great. Then just give them money. That's all. Just give them money. If you would like to help out the local basketball team or the local, just, just give them money.
Sonny00:25:20That's all. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go door to door in New Jersey either. That is the land of degenerates up there.
Mike00:25:26In Texas, though, everybody's Texas. Everybody opens their door with a smile.
Sonny00:25:32You open that and people open up the door and they'd shoot their six shooters in there. Yeehaw. We're all here. Let's buy some cookies. You're selling wrapping tickets. We who some, some kid actually came to my door the other day and was selling things for some fundraiser. And I almost always partake just because I know what it's, you know, and he had like, he had like big giant sleeves of Kit Kats and Twizzlers. And I like Kit Kats. Twizzlers are disgusting, but, and he had like candles and I was like, I don't want, I don't want any candy in the house. I don't need any more candy. How much are the candles? And he was like, it's $18. And I saw this like big candle. I was like $18. All right. That's a pretty big candle, whatever that. And he was like, no, that's for the little one. The big one is 30. And I was like, I'm sorry, you got to go get, get away from my door. I'm not paying $18 for a little tiny candle. I don't know. He was probably 12, 13. I was like, he's like, I'm not, I'm not doing that.
JVL00:26:25Here's five bucks. Don't give me anything. Just take the five bucks, do whatever you want with it.
Mike00:26:30Which you can do. It's just fine. Some people, some people like to get something when they, uh, when they donate. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do think, however, there is a magazine feature story. And maybe this has already been written. I've just missed it. But in the whole industry of the public school fundraising, uh, uh, industry, um, where they, and I don't know if it still happens when I was a kid. These like, you'd have like an assembly and they would come and grow this whole thing. Charleston rap people come. Yeah. And, and it would be like, and for us it was magazines, sell magazine subscriptions. And, and it was like this whole big, and there was lollipops and you could get these little.
JVL00:27:15It was like the Lula row documentary where they show the Lula row gathering parties.
Mike00:27:20That's exactly what it was. But like the fact that this was allowed in, and what I have to say, it was like a. My public school system, a very well-funded high, like nationally recognized, high performing, high tax base school system. And then like, that is just, I think that's weird. I don't mind it for the extracurriculars, but for the school itself, weird.
Sonny00:27:43No, but that's, that's like, those are the best markets to get into because you know, those families, they got money.
Mike00:27:48That's right. No, no, no.
Sonny00:27:49You really got to, you got to get your.
Mike00:27:51Did the school need it? Did the school need it?
Sonny00:27:53Of course the school. Why wouldn't the school need money?
JVL00:27:56We pay taxes. Maybe, hold on, hold on. Maybe we ought to start one of these ourselves. Now you're thinking. But the, uh, the, the set, the incentives aren't like, uh, Hey, you get a slinky, but Hey, you get, and we have some sort of award that sounds like a big deal for college essays. So the. You can put on your car, you know, you get our, uh, volunteer of the millennium, right? The life-saving volunteer of the millennium trophy that you can then put on your college applications. And we take that around to these high performing, high, uh, high income suburban high schools.
Mike00:28:45That's right. That's where we're going. We're going to the collar counties of, uh, of Philadelphia. We're, we're going to Fairfax County. We're going to Dallas. That's where we're going. I love it. Hmm. All right. Let's talk a box office. Another miserable, miserable weekend.
Sonny00:29:03It is. It's really awful out there. I, the only semi-interesting thing is that the Oscars appear to be doing what the Oscars are supposed to do, which is to create interest in a lesser seen stuff, right? Like American fiction, zone of interest, uh, et cetera. Also a decent bumps, um, not amazing bumps, but decent bumps, uh, which is, which is good. Uh, Oppenheimer's back in theaters and, you know, people, people are going to show. It's funny. Oppenheimer has actually not left theaters. If you go look at the box office, mojo, uh, tracker weekend to weekend, it has just been, it's been hanging out in like 20 IMAX screens around the country. And so it's been, it's been, uh, what else is there to put in IMAX? You know, it's not been much. There's not been much.
JVL00:29:48I see somebody joke that Oppenheimer is actually, uh, the prequel to Godzilla year. Yeah. I think that was, uh, That was a golden globe show.
Sonny00:29:57No, no, I, the two movies are very interesting. We, you guys haven't seen, did we do Godzilla minus one? Yeah, we did Godzilla minus one. So I, I still think it's very interesting to look at these two movies in tandem because, uh, Oppenheimer really is like a, oh, sorry, we made this potentially civilization ending bomb. And the, and Godzilla minus one is like, ah, sorry, the Japanese government made you use it. Like that is really those, that's how I watched those two movies in tandem.
JVL00:30:25Anyway. Uh, but the.
Sonny00:30:26The, the, yeah, the box office is just, it's dead. I mean, I like the most exciting box office news this week was that the long range forecast for, uh, for dune two came online. Um, and you know, it's, it's looking like it's going to open to, I don't know, 50 or $60 million, 200 million domestic, which would be about double what the first one did. Um, and my theory on that movie has always been like the, what happened to the pandemic is the best thing that possibly could have happened to dune because it naturally. Like I always kind of figured that like the audience that showed up for dune in theaters was the audience that was always going to show up for dune in theaters, but it was also on HBO max at the same time. Remember this was part of the, we're, we're going to debut theaters and, and on HBO max simultaneously, which led to it getting a lot of, uh, you know, audiences who wouldn't necessarily have gone to see it in theaters. Those people saw it and the ones who liked it will show up for dune two. The people who showed up for dune one in theaters are definitely going to show up for dune two in theaters. Uh, and it's, it's, it will, it will do better. The question is how much better I, I, I mean, I could see a 50% bump, which would be a, you know, like that would put it at something like 600 million worldwide, which would be a big number for a franchise like dune, which is like, again, dune is one of those properties that people have been, they remake over and over and over again. And they're like, finally, we're going to, it's going to be a hit. I think this time is probably never going to be a hit. Well, I mean, I think the first one made, I think. $400 million in the pandemic, which is like a good number for a movie that cost a hundred million bucks. That's, that was a solid result.
JVL00:32:03That costs a hundred million dollars. And it looks like a million bucks for that. That's really, yeah, it was, how does that, so that cost less than red notice.
Sonny00:32:11Significantly less.
JVL00:32:14Yeah.
Sonny00:32:15Yeah. So we can talk about this more next week when we talk about Argyle. Cause I got a lot of thoughts about Argyle and the look of the modern streaming blockbuster and how they all look like fucking garbage, but.
Mike00:32:26Um, well, before we move on from Dune two, though, I mean, have it, it's gonna, there's gonna be a big, uh, a big surge in the, uh, in the pervert, uh, audience here. Have you seen the Dune two, uh, popcorn bucket that AMC is offering?
Sonny00:32:45Oh yeah. The one you put your dick in. Just Google it. Just Google it. That's all I'm saying. I'm going right now. It's a, it's a, it's a sandworm JBL. It's a sandworm.
JVL00:32:56Sandworm slash popcorn, uh, love sleeve or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
Sonny00:33:03Yeah. It's, uh, once again, it's like my favorite flashlight.
Mike00:33:09Oh, it's a flashlight. Yeah. Wow. You don't, you don't, you don't want to know what I'm doing to this popcorn bucket. That's the, all right. All right. Wow. Uh, any more box office thoughts? I mean, what, what, what do we got here? It's mean girls at the top. The beekeepers sticking around, you know, uh, Wonka migration. I did go take my kids last week to see migration.
Sonny00:33:32Did they like it?
Mike00:33:33Yeah, they liked it. It's like totally fine. It's fine. It's totally fine.
Sonny00:33:38It is. It's like the definition of replacement level.
Mike00:33:41Absolutely.
Sonny00:33:42Absolutely. Family entertainment. It's perfectly fine. I, I, I, it was neither inoffensive nor like, I mean, it was like, it's boring for me because it's a kid's movie, but like the kids, the kids were into it is fine. It's, it's in that movie. That, that movie is going to get to a hundred billion domestic cause there's nothing else.
Mike00:33:59It's already there. It's already there.
Sonny00:34:01Is it? It's over.
Mike00:34:02It's a hundred and $1 million domestic. Uh, we were the only people in our theater on a Friday afternoon.
Sonny00:34:08I feel so bad for the theater owners right now. They just have nothing. They got, they've got nothing to show the studios, like the strikes, the, the, the, uh, the actor, the greedy actors and the greedy writers and the, the blameless studios, you know?
Mike00:34:26Uh, all right. We'll pour one out for, uh, for the theater owners. Um, okay. Well, uh, everybody I think should like strap in for the next two and a half hours. Cause that's, we need to discuss the movie that we're discussing and three and a half. Yeah. Uh, all right. I know, but we won't go the entire length of the movie of killers of the flower moon.
Sonny00:34:45I want to, before we, well, all right, I'll do it. All right. So here I can actually summarize this movie very quickly. It's not, it's not it, but the, the, the, so this is the story. Uh, the flower moon killers of the flower moon is the story of, uh, the, the killing of the Osage people who, you know, they, they get moved to Oklahoma, they find oil on their land and, uh, over, over, over a course of, you know, 10 or 20 years or so, uh, lots of the Osage are dying and turns out that, you know, they were being killed more. They were being murdered, uh, by the, um, by, by white, uh, folks who wanted to get the rights to the, to the, uh, oil underneath it. And so the, the book, uh, JBL, you've read the book by David Grand, right?
JVL00:35:36By my friend, David, my friend, David Grand.
Sonny00:35:39Yes. Yes. Uh, and so the book, the book is essentially about the creation of the FBI, right? So like these people are getting murdered. The Osage go to Washington. They say, we need help. Nobody here is helping us. We need to figure out. And so they, they send the federal investigators there and it's kind of the story of figuring out who is. Is doing the killing, but also like watching the creation of this federal police force. The movie is not that at all. The movie is very focused on the actual killers, the actual killers of the flower moon, right? So it, and, and to, um, to drive home the lengthy, uh, process is the, the reason, the excuse that this movie is three and a half hours long. You know, I joked. I joked. I joked that Oppenheimer is a three hour movie that feels like it's a two hour movie. This is a three and a half hour movie that feels like it's a four hour movie. And it is, it is, it's very, very long, but it, it, the, the whole reason for it is it's this kind of piling accumulation of detail and indecency. And you just, you just watch, uh, you watch as this community becomes acclimated to, to doing crime, right? I wrote, I wrote about this in my review. But like when, when you are surrounded by crime, when crime is all you see, when life doesn't really matter, uh, you just thinking about enriching yourself, it's easy to accept that this is the natural way of doing things, uh, that this is fine. And, and there's a very, God, there's, there's, there's a, there's a very darkly comic moment. I don't know if you guys made it this far. We'll, we'll discuss that in a second, but there's this very dark, darkly comic moment kind of later on in the film where this guy, uh, who's played by the wonderfully named cancel me, um, who was on, uh, the murder at the murder, uh, at the end of the world show that we talked a little bit about. Um, he, uh, he is, he goes to a lawyer and he says, Hey, if these kids I've adopted died, do I get their head rights to the oil? And the lawyer says to them, says to him, you know, by asking this question, I am going to assume that you murdered them if they die. And he says, well, I'm not going to do it if I don't get the rights to the, to the lawyer. And like it, and that is the sort of thing that happens over and over again in this movie. It, it is like weird. It's again, it's, it's, this feels almost terrible to say, but it is weirdly funny, um, for how dour and, uh, you know, um, all that it is. Uh, I love, I love Leonardo DiCaprio's performance in this movie because he is playing a straight up goober. The, the word I would use to describe Leo in this movie is a goober. He has never played a character like this before. Um, and it is, it is unusual to see. Uh, look, I, so here is my question for you guys. I told you to start a timer and stop it when you, when you decided to stop watching it. How far did you make it?
JVL00:38:35JVL. I think I made an hour 19. Uh, Michael, you, you answer first though. And I'll, I'll give you my more complicated answer.
Sonny00:38:44Oh, I made an hour 52.
JVL00:38:47Ooh.
Sonny00:38:47So you guys both, you made it less, uh, about more than half.
JVL00:38:52I was halfway through.
Sonny00:38:53Michael made it halfway through JVL. You just gave up.
JVL00:38:56I, so I did not want to watch this going in purely because of the length, like just the idea of a three hour, 36 minute movie felt oppressive to me. I I've read the book. I've talked with David about the book. I actually think the book is more, much more straightforwardly about structural racism than it is about, uh, the creation of the FBI. And I think the, the reason for the killings is much more to do with. Dehumanization than desensitization to crime. Um, we can talk about that in a minute, but I, I was really pleasantly surprised by the movie. It was great. The hour 19 I was, I was watching was fabulous and I loved everything about it, but it was just too much of it. I felt, I felt like a, an animal in, you know, like the goose, how they fatten the geese. They just keep giving it good food to eat. And I, like, I just, I would love. A two hour, 20 minute version of this. And I know it wouldn't be, I know it wouldn't be a majesty. I, I feel bad saying this, right? This is, this is great cinema. It is great moviemaking. Scorsese can still get it done. DiCaprio. Everybody is fantastic. Lily, Lily Gladstone. Is that her name?
Sonny00:40:14Yes.
JVL00:40:14She's wonderful. DiCaprio's wonderful. Uh, everybody De Niro's great. De Niro is great. He's basically playing the devil in this. Uh, and, and yeah, there's. There's just, there's just too much of it.
Sonny00:40:27I want to, I want to, uh, take what you're saying and I totally understand it. And I even agree with it to a certain extent. I think there is a, there, there is an argument to be made that this should have been an hour shorter to make it more accessible for folks. Um, but I also think that this is, this is the actual case for movie theaters. The case for movie theaters is trapping people in a room and forcing them to sit with the thing and watch the whole thing. Not, do not give them a chance to pause and leave. And they'll come back to it. The case for movie theaters is you are, you have purchased a time. You are going to sit there and you're going to watch the whole thing because I think I, look, I, I, I am, uh, I am sympathetic to the arguments that people make that this sort of thing is too long that, you know, I, I don't want to watch it in a movie theater. I got to get up. I want to be able to move around. I want to go to the bathroom, blah, blah, blah. But like the point of the theater is to capture your attention. To, to have you in a cell phone free, computer free, distraction free space, and you can sit there and absorb it. And that is inherently going to limit the audience somewhat. I, I understand and accept that.
JVL00:41:38But, but what it also does is it, it, it, this is old person talking, but going to a theater sections off that block of time from the rest of your life and nothing else can impinge on it. Whereas watching when you're an old person and have responsibilities. You can turn on a movie, but if you're at home, like something else may come up that you just have to deal with, right? Like kid comes into the room or isn't sleeping or wants help with homework. And right. I mean, do you see what I'm saying? Like it just, it becomes very hard to access that level of time at the home. Yeah. All of which is saying, I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing with you. Funny. Michael, did you love it? What you were watching or were you just like me?
Mike00:42:21Me? Yeah. Uh, so let me say what I liked about it first. I really loved Lily Gladstone. I thought she was terrific. I thought she played this character really, uh, what I think would be a difficult character to play. Um, and granted I have not finished it, so I don't know how things end, um, for her, but I, I find like. The mystery behind her eyes and what she's thinking, how she is processing all of this. It's clear that she, you know, they, they make a point in the beginning about how, you know, uh, I think Robert De Niro says, you know, you know, the Osage don't, um, you know, they don't, they, they, they want you to talk.
JVL00:43:17They don't talk much. They don't talk much. You feel the silence.
Mike00:43:20Right. Um, and whether or not that is. You know, whether or not in the, in the movie, it's an actual, uh, true fact about the culture or whether it is a kind of imposition of, of the white man's view of that, like whatever, like she plays it very well, like whatever it is. And so I loved her.
JVL00:43:43Just the quality of her voice is really great too. Like that timber to it is just great.
Mike00:43:48Um, so really liked that. Um, I, I thought that the. I mean, it looks great. It's a great movie visually. So I really enjoyed that.
JVL00:44:02It's energetic too. Like the cutting from the old stuff to the music. Yeah. The framed.
Mike00:44:08Yeah.
JVL00:44:09Like it's not a stodgy movie.
Mike00:44:12Sure. For what it is. Yeah. I will say this though. I did not like Robert De Niro. Really? I did not like Leonardo DiCaprio. Tell me more. So I thought Robert De Niro, first of all, could not land on an accent. Like, who is he supposed to be? Is he supposed to be from the South? Is he supposed to be from Oklahoma? Is he supposed to be from Virginia? Like, you know, and I'm sure there's a historical record of this guy, King Hale, that I can like go look up. But like, I didn't, I felt like, I felt like the accent was phoned in and maybe that's part of the character. I don't know. I just, I didn't. I didn't care for it. And, and I found, I guess this is the character, right? He is playing the devil. So he's supposed to be slimy and make you feel gross, but it just didn't work for me. I was very annoyed by Leo's character. Not so much Leo's acting, but the character because of how, what a dumb shit he was. And like, I just, I didn't understand why the movie was so centered on him. Like he's a, he's an idiot.
JVL00:45:27I can tell you because he's Leonardo DiCaprio, but like, no, no, because, uh, because the idea is that, so King is the devil, but Leonardo DiCaprio's character, Ernest is, he's the banality of evil. Like he is the Hitler's willing executioner. Right. And so what David has always thought is the, the, the really interesting, the in more interesting question is not like. About King, but about the people who just were normal people who just like went along with it because, because.
Mike00:46:03Sure. And, and I'm sure that's, that I have not read, uh, the book. I, I think I would love the book. I think I would keep the book up. Um, and that's great for a book, uh, for a movie. I'm, I do not, this is going to sound harsh. I do not need to see all these fucking people dying who I don't know. Who the, you know, there's one point where kind of early in the movie where there's a guy walking in a white suit, uh, in like kind of twilight and he's like shot. And then we find out later that it's one, another Osage who's been killed. Like I get, I get what the movie's trying to do. Like show it's just everybody, everybody keeps getting, but like it, I don't know who this character is. I, you can't even tell because it's in twilight. You can't see anything. You can't even tell that he might be Osage. Like he just like, it's just a guy getting shot. And so I get what the movie's trying to do. I just found it boring. I was like, let's go, let's move. Come on, let's get to the, and, and, and instead it's like, everyone's kind of, it felt like I was watching in slow motion, like something that could have really narrative wise, just been sped up a little bit. Yeah. They're killing all these people. They're killing the sister and the sister here and the, and then, all right, let's go. Let's move to like the. From that to the resolution. And instead it was just like, and it keeps going. And all the characters are like, w like what somebody else is dead. And I just, I, we complain a lot about movies being too long and this movie is too fucking long.
Sonny00:47:47I don't, I don't really disagree with any of that precisely. I mean, I, I, again. This is, this goes back to my point about movie theaters. Like if I had, I, I saw, I saw the Irishman in a movie theater and the Irishman not in a movie theater. And it's two very different experiences when you can like stop and leave it and come back to it. You, when, when you are sitting there and again, getting that kind of crushing accumulation of detail that like suffocating accumulation of evil is the only way to, to describe what is happening. It, it, that is insane. In and of itself, the story that is the story. And like, if you don't, if you don't like that, then you're not going to like this movie. If you don't, if you can't, if you, if that is not what you were, what you are interested in, you, you are not going to like this movie. It is not like a Goodfellas or even like a casino, which is kind of a more discreet, um, specific story that is being told about a person and their life. This is about, this is the story of a town. It's the story of a country, right? Like that is, that is the, that is what is actually happening in this movie. Like, again, I am, this is why I wanted you guys to keep a timer timer. Cause I was, I am like curious to see what average, uh, no offense guys. Uh, but like what, what non-critic audiences are, how they make, how they, how they work through this movie. Cause I feel like your guys' experience is not at all unique. I do. I do not think that the two of you are, uh, outliers on this. I would love to see, I would love what I would pay an, an, an, a large sum of money to see is the, uh, is the start stop completion rates of, uh, killers of the flower moon on apple TV plus, because I bet a lot of people start it. I, if more than 50% of them finished in the course of like three days, let's say I would be surprised.
Mike00:49:43Let me tell you my experience. Here's a little anecdata for you, Sonny, uh, turn this on one evening after the kids are down and I watch. My one hour and 52 minutes of it. And then I was yawning because it was late and I had to get up and go to work the next morning. And so I paused it at a, at a, at a place that seemed natural and all week knowing I had to watch this movie for this show. I kept going tonight. I got to do, ah, yeah, you know what? I really, I really get it. It's been four or five days since I started it. And like, I can't. I can't bring myself to go. And maybe that's part of it as well. It's like, it's so depressing. It's so makes me feel terrible as a, as a, as an American to like, watch this thing that like, oh, I gotta, I, I really want to jump back into this one and, uh, and, and see where this one ends. Um, so I do think I would, yeah, I would have stuck it out if I had gone to see it in the theater, but like, uh, you know, it's just not possible. That's a big ask.
JVL00:50:51When you log into Apple TV plus, they're one of the. The lines that they give you across is like the shows you've watched recently. Right. And there's a little blue bar underneath that shows how far you got. And I have not finished a single one of the entertainment content pieces, which I have started from Apple TV aside from the family plan, which I did because we were doing it for the show. And, but this is not, some of these are very normal movies, right? Normal sized movies, not, it just, when you're watching stuff at home at a certain age and part of the thing, this is like, I bet if I was 25 years old, this movie would have been like boogie nights for me. Right. Like I would have watched this movie 15 times trying to like really figure out what, what the filmmakers were doing and watching for everything and trying to unpack it as a tour de force. But as you get older, you just don't have, you don't have the time and the luxury for stuff. Maybe your neighbors, your neighbors, Michael. Oh, oh, absolutely.
Mike00:51:59And in fact, I think the neighborhood book club for which I'm on the mailing list, even though I've never attended and I have no interest in attending because I don't have time for that. Like, I think they read this book in the last year or so. So I'm sure they would love to watch the movie.
JVL00:52:18So the, uh, the story, do you guys know the story of how David found this story? No, it's sensational. So, uh, a friend of his said something to him, like, have you ever heard the story of the Osage Indians? And he had never heard of it. And she gave him like, you know, like a, a one paragraph summary and, you know, Oh, is this, this clan of Indians that was like this tribe of Indians that was incredibly rich because they had oil. And then a bunch of them started dying under mysterious circumstances. And so, you know, I don't know. David just flew out to, you know, cause this is the kind of reporter he is with no prior just like, huh, that sounds interesting. Flew out to Oklahoma and started at the, uh, the museum that the Osage keep and was there. He's the only person in the museum and the docent was there. And up on the wall is one of these gigantic panoramic photos of, uh, like just the tribe plus people in and around the tribe from the community, except that on one end of the photo, a huge portion of it was ripped out. And he said, what's that? Why, why is the photo ripped? She said, oh, that was ripped out because, uh, that, that photo had the devil in it and we didn't want to display his face. It was like, what do you mean? And then she told him the story about King and took him in the back and showed him an unripped version of it. And, uh, he was just like off to the races. He dug in this thing for years because when it started, uh, you know, the FBI, I think convicted seven or 17. There were seven or 17 murders that the FBI tried people for, but the real number is in the hundreds. Right. And this is the, you know, whatever we, we don't have to, to get into it, but um, in the same way that, uh, this infrastructure can have reverberating effects through community for decades and hundreds of years, even, uh, right where a railroad is built determines the development, which happens around that railroad, right. Um, where a highway goes, like where there's an exit, right. So many things are determined just by like little choices like that. Uh, that is true for race in America as well. And so these things, which even though they don't exist anymore, right. The, the, when people talk about structural racism, what they're talking about is the structures, which once existed, those have reverberating consequences, which sort of just keep echoing in the same way that like putting the decision to put a, uh, an interstate there and an exit affects the development of that community. That's all. And that's, that's what this is largely about. Yeah.
Mike00:55:23And, and, and I think I, I would have enjoyed the movie telling that story a little more.
JVL00:55:29A documentary maybe, right.
Mike00:55:30Maybe, or, or just tell it in a way that maybe lessens the impact of the growing evil, the sort of novelistic approach that, that, that Scorsese is trying to, to do here and just cut to the chase a little bit.
JVL00:55:48I know that's like, that's like crude, but tell it to tell it as a true, to, to tell it as a drama. And rather than as a documentary is a really interesting choice. And Scorsese includes some documentary ish aspect to it as well. Um, anyway, I, Sonny, ultimately, are you, you're pro or anti I'm pro.
Sonny00:56:11I think this movie is very, this movie is great. It's a great movie. It is.
JVL00:56:15You just, I got that sense that it would be a great movie.
Sonny00:56:18Actually watch it.
JVL00:56:19Yeah.
Sonny00:56:19It's, you know, yeah, it feels like Mike does not agree. It feels.
Mike00:56:24It feels like me saying, yeah, war and peace is a, uh, is a great novel. I've never read it, but I like, I, I know that I've ever written.
Sonny00:56:32Well, I, I, I did watch the movie, believe it or not. It was, I went to a theater and everything. I know you did. Sat there the whole time.
Mike00:56:38I, I, I do actually want to finish it. It's just, uh, it's just finding the time. So, um, well, speaking of time, is there anything else we want to say about this? Cause I think.
JVL00:56:47Can't wait to talk about Jack Reacher.
Mike00:56:48Jack Reacher. Another Reacher round. That's right. Uh, so thanks. For, uh, for listening this week, go to sub beacon.com. Tell your friends and family, and we'll talk to you next time. Uh, yeah, I, I, I can appreciate that. If this is a great movie, I just couldn't get through it.
JVL00:57:15Is it nominated for best picture? Sonny? Yeah. Sonny. What are the best picture nominees? I haven't even seen any of this.
Sonny00:57:20Uh, let's see. So Oppenheimer, Barbie. Uh, Killers of the Flower Moon, Poor Things. Hold on. Let me pull up the actual list. Uh, uh, the Holdovers, American Fiction, The Zone of Interest, Barbie, Oppenheimer, Poor Things, Past Lives, Anatomy of a Fall, Maestro, and Killers of the Flower Moon. That's, that's the list of best picture nominees.
JVL00:57:45All right. I, I have not, I have not, uh, seen hardly any of these, but it strikes me that the best picture that Hollywood. Hollywood creates each year of that list has to be either Oppenheimer or Killers of the Flower Moon, because those are like huge cinema.
Sonny00:58:02Those would be number one and number two on my list. Right. That would be number one.
JVL00:58:06Just as a, again, just on the, on the merits of what were the most important movies to movies. Yeah. And it probably should be Oppenheimer, right? On that.
Sonny00:58:15I, uh, Oppenheimer is the best. I like, you know, every year.
JVL00:58:19I didn't love Oppenheimer, but like it was this big, serious piece of cinema that made a bazillion dollars.
Sonny00:58:23Yeah. It's, it's absolutely the best picture of the year. It's the movie that they should reward. And I think it will. I mean, I, you know, there, there is some, there's, there's an effort to turn the quote unquote snub of Greta Gerwig and director and Margot Robbie and actress, uh, into the case that this is why we have to give Barbie best picture. I don't think Barbie's going to win best picture.
Mike00:58:44Um, it's, uh, is there any, is there any merit sense of merit left? Cause like Barbie is not, Barbie's not that good. Barbie's not that good.
Sonny00:58:52And I'm tired of people saying it is.
JVL00:58:54I was not good of those of those. I'd take Barbie in the three hole.
Sonny00:58:58So to speak, I would not, I would not, I, it would be down toward the bottom of like Barbie maestro, uh, poor things are probably toward the bottom of my list. Holdovers in American fiction are better.
JVL00:59:11You missed your opportunity for, I'm sure it's fine.
Sonny00:59:15I'm sure that's fine. Fine. I'm sure it's fine.
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