#225. 'The Iron Claw'
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The main event is The Iron Claw, Sean Durkin's A24 film about the tragedy-riddled Von Erich wrestling dynasty, and the three hosts land in different places: Sonny loves it as a shameless "male weepy" precision-tuned to his interests, singling out the full-song "Tom Sawyer" by Rush needle drop and a revelatory, newly bulked-up Zac Efron performance, and says it may end up being the movie he most regrets leaving off his year-end top ten. JVL, who knows the real Von Erich story intimately, is even more overwhelmed — he argues the film is secretly a haunted-house movie in which the house is the family and the demons are the parents, especially patriarch Fritz, and says it's lodged inside him more than anything else he's seen this year. Mike went in cold, struggled to follow the pre-WWF territorial wrestling business the movie assumes viewers already understand, and came away more ambivalent than his co-hosts — genuinely moved by the brotherhood the film establishes and devastated by the closing scene of Kevin's young sons offering to "be his brothers," but reading that ending as more of a gut-punch downer than the cathartic crowd-pleaser Sonny and JVL describe. The episode opens with the usual sprawling new-year check-in: Sonny announces he's finally cut the cord for AT&T Fiber after years of paying for Spectrum's triple play, and JVL delivers an exhaustive, rabbit-hole denim tutorial, having discovered his beloved discontinued Prana Axiom jeans are no longer made and resorted to buying strangers' used pairs on eBay, which sends him deep into selvedge denim, shuttle looms, raw-denim break-in rituals, and the world of small-batch "micro-brew" jeanmakers, complete with a running debate with Sonny and Mike over how often (if ever) one should actually wash a pair of jeans. There's also a brief, reluctant detour into box-office numbers — Wonka holding at number one, Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom badly underperforming its predecessor — before the crew finally dives into the Von Erichs.
From the show notes
Plus: Denim Talk!
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Ever since I was a child, people said my family was cursed, mom tried to protect us with God, pop tried to protect us with wrestling, he said if we were the toughest, the strongest, nothing would ever hurt us, I believed him, we all did.
Mike00:00:29Welcome back to the Sub-Beacon podcast, I am your co-host, Mike Warren, I am joined as always by my two co-hosts from the top rope, Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch, happy new year to all of our listeners, happy new year guys, we are back and you can come join us over at Sub-Beacon.com, become a patron, join the Sub-Beacon community, you can get bonus episodes, we're talking about in the bonus episode series that we have, I guess, Reacher, season two, one episode at a time, just for a couple minutes, you can get those on Mondays, you can get regular episodes on Friday mornings, but you got to go to Sub-Beacon.com, tell your friends, tell your family, come comment and join us, we'll be talking about on this show, the Iron Claw later, but first, we got to do a new year check-in, how's everybody doing, Sonny Bunch, let's start with you.
Sonny00:01:29I'm good, I'm good, I made a big life choice, made a big life decision, you guys wanted to know.
JVL00:01:34That's very funny, you said that, and as you said that, you froze.
Sonny00:01:37Am I still here? You're still here. Now you're back. Am I still here?
JVL00:01:41But that's very funny, because of the life choice you're about to say.
Sonny00:01:46Well, no, it's interesting, well, I think this happened because I'm closing various things on my computer right now, I was closing Audition, which eats up a lot of bandwidth when it's saving files, but the, so a big, big life choice here. I have, I have got AT, I have newly acquired AT&T Fiber, apparently it was already in my house, when we moved here, there was like a, there was like an AT&T Junction box that wasn't doing anything, so I took it off the wall, and put it in a shelf, and I was like, I'll never need this, and then four years, four years later, here we are. Lo and behold. Kept, kept it, and plugged it back in. It's been four years. What's that?
JVL00:02:24It's been four years.
Sonny00:02:25We moved here in January of 2020. That's right.
JVL00:02:29That's right.
Sonny00:02:29Four years now, I've been here. Time flies. The, anyway, long, the short version here is, I'm doing this because I have finally just gotten, it's gotten to the point where it's ridiculous to be paying for Spectrum cable, Spectrum internet, and Spectrum phone as part of the triple play. Just in, I barely use the cable TV, almost never, I mean, frankly, maybe like once a month, and I was not really, I don't, I've literally don't own a landline. I have no, no need for that. So switching over to the AT&T just made financial sense. I'm going to save like 130 bucks a month, and I will just have to rely on Twitter for breaking news instead of CNN or MSNBC or anything like that. So you'll be happier.
Mike00:03:18Or, I mean, local news, right? I mean, are you able to?
Sonny00:03:22Well, no, I, so I got, before I did, before I embarked on this journey, I picked up a antenna, an AT&T antenna. An HD antenna, and I, I plugged it in and I'll tell you guys, it's basically the same image quality as the spectrum app, which is garbage. The spectrum cable app is just awful. The image is terrible. Um, so anyway, uh, I'm, I'm excited to go on this journey with you guys, uh, to, to become one of the cord cutters. I, of course, still subscribe to about 17 different video apps of varying, uh, qualities and services. But, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm entering the future now.
Mike00:04:02So, so you are no longer a cable subscriber and you're no longer a landline phone subscriber. JVL, do you have a landline in your house?
JVL00:04:11I mean, uh, we haven't had a landline in 17 years. Wow. So you were an early adopter or an adopter.
Sonny00:04:20And we haven't had cable.
JVL00:04:22I've literally since flash was born. I mean, it's been 15 years. We cut the cord very early.
Sonny00:04:28Yeah, I will say I, I have literally never lived in a place where I owned a landline and used it. It just never, never have never, not since I moved out of my, uh, like dorm room.
Mike00:04:43So, so we had, when I worked at CNN, uh, I did have, I had satellite. I didn't have cable. I had satellite because of, uh, of a very, very good deal. Um, because of, I was a part of the AT&T universe. I was able to get, uh, uh, direct TV. Oh, because they own for Warner discovery. Right. At that point, it was not Warner discovery at that point. Warner.
JVL00:05:09Right. Sorry. They own, they own Warner. Right. Right.
Mike00:05:11It was, yeah, it was in that old mess. Um, but other than that, I, I guess cable, the last time I had cable was in, in the flop house, uh, with John McCormick and, and, uh, you know, random lawyers and, and government people. So like, that's been a while, but I. We'll say we have a landline currently in our house. I have no idea why we have this land. Well, no, sorry, let me back up. I know why we have this landline. It's because my wife said we should have a landline. All it does is ring with robo calls, sales calls, nobody. Um, every once in a while, one of our, um, elderly neighbors will for some random reason, try to get in touch with us. On the landline. I'm not sure why it has something to do with the reasoning has something to do with emergencies, like maybe the cell phone towers are down and we, I don't know, but we have it and we pay for it. And I never use it.
JVL00:06:13A real landline though, or is it VOIP?
Mike00:06:18I have no idea.
JVL00:06:20Well, so, okay. Is your provider for the landline, the same person as your provider for your cable? So is it part of the bundle anymore? Okay. As the provider for your internet.
Mike00:06:31Oh, oh, yes. Correct. So it may be VOIP. I don't know. So if it's VOIP, you're screwed. But I don't think it is because I think we are down to, you know, because we're plugged into the phone jack. That's now that I think about it, we're plugged into the phone jack.
JVL00:06:46Right. But that phone jack probably goes into your cable modem. You think? Yes. They use the, it uses the same old phone jack cord, but it, it goes into the back of the cable. Unimportant that if it makes you feel better, it's probably $9 a month. Do it.
Mike00:07:04I mean, we already do it. We've been doing it for years. I there's no, there's no, it's not changing either. So, uh, but congratulations, Sonny. I'm glad you have graduated into 2024, 2024 and perfect timing. Really? Yes. It's now the future.
Sonny00:07:19Um, I'm actually, I'm actually gonna, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm, so this is interesting. We're doing, we're doing some live stuff. This is the first time this has happened. On any of the podcasts I've been doing, it's only with you guys. I want to, I want to, and I wonder if it's, I'm going to, I want to restart, uh, one thing on my end, just, uh, software wise. I'll be right back. I'm going to, I'm going to pause here for a second.
Mike00:07:47All right. JVL 2024. How are you doing my man?
JVL00:07:53I too am on a journey of self-discovery and I have been waiting to share this with you boys.
Mike00:08:00Oh boy. Oh boy.
JVL00:08:03So, uh, you guys know that I care an inordinate, an inordinate amount about good design, right? When design solves a product, it makes me very, very happy. And about 10 or 12 years ago, design solved jeans, blue jeans, blue jeans, and this was the vaunted prana axiom jeans, which was a long time running staple in our show in the early days. Yes. Culminating with me buying prana axioms for Sonny and Victorino for Christmas. And at the time I bought myself six pairs of prana axioms and that's what I have worn day and night for the last decade plus. That's it. That's why I wear my prana axioms.
Mike00:08:56What a run.
JVL00:08:57And. And one by one, those jeans have been giving up the ghost. Yeah. And.
Sonny00:09:04Question.
JVL00:09:05Yeah.
Sonny00:09:06Do you rotate? Do you have like a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday pair? Like, how does it work?
JVL00:09:12No, I just I wear a pair until I feel like I should probably put it in the wash. And then I put it in the wash and I grab another one off the shelf.
Sonny00:09:18No, you don't wash jeans. Don't wash jeans. What do you mean you don't wash jeans? Don't wash jeans.
JVL00:09:23We're going to get to that. OK, we're going to get to that. So I was not bothered by this. I thought this has been a great run. I'm just going to go over to the Prana website where I used to be a brand ambassador and just order myself six more pairs, except that they no longer make the Prana Axiom.
Sonny00:09:42Disaster.
JVL00:09:43They have the Badger and the Hildfigur or something, some fucking name, but they don't have the Axiom. And so I had to make some decisions. Did I want to try? A new design on what had been a perfected product? Question. Did I want to find a replacement? Yes. Michael question. And maybe you're getting into this.
Mike00:10:12Is the design difference between these different styles noticeable? So I not to you, but to me or to your average observer. I tried to find this out.
JVL00:10:27I contacted customer service and I said, hello, sir. I noticed that you no longer stock the Prana Axiom gene. Can you tell me the two new styles you have? The Badger and the Hill Fedger or whatever it is. How are they different from the Axiom? Have you just rebadged them as you know, or are there design differences in this guy who was probably just some dude in a Philippine call center? Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry, dude. Like, we don't have a model jeans clothes. Clothes change. Things change. It's fashion. It's never finished. That's what that's what Manuel said to me from the Philippines. Wow. So I had some choices to make and I chose to not experiment. So I went to eBay to buy used pants that other people have worn so that I could get my Prana Axiom.
Sonny00:11:25Sure. As one does.
JVL00:11:27And I ordered three pairs of Prana Axioms in my size, the size I've been wearing for 12 years from other people who had worn these pants, which is totally normal thing. Me just like wearing somebody else's pants. Totally fine.
Sonny00:11:43And I recommend would not recommend this, but OK.
JVL00:11:46And when I got them, they all fit ludicrously different, not only from my Prana Axioms, but from each other. And I did not understand this. I thought, is are these did I buy counterfeit goods? Did I buy some? Are these something like making knockoff Prana Axioms? I don't believe that could be a thing, right? I can imagine people counterfeiting Levi's 501s or Lucky Brand jeans or diesel or something like that. And so I began to do some research and I have delved deep into denim. Oh, that is no surprise.
Mike00:12:29Do you guys know anything about denim? I know Levi Strauss invented something like denim.
Sonny00:12:38I used to. So what? Once upon a time when I was like a subscriber to Esquire magazine as a 20 something gentleman about town, as one does, I probably I probably knew more about denim than any heterosexual male should. But I am not. I would not describe. Myself as an expert at denim at all. So I'm excited for this. I'm excited to get the denim tutorial.
JVL00:13:03So I, I am also not an expert at denim, but I have now spent some time in places where there are people who care very deeply about denim. And denim comes to us from mid 19th century France. It is a weave. It is a particular kind of weave of cotton. And there's. Something about like the number of times that the warp goes over the weft or something like that. I, the answer is I don't understand how looms work and I, I can't explain it to you, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So denim is, is out doing that thing. And it was, uh, the Levi Strauss company was then selling bolts of denim to a guy who was then turning them into, to jeans who created the gene. And then he wound up getting bought by Levi unimportant. Uh, what is important is. That there are all sorts of kinds of denim. Yeah, there are, there are now most of the pants you buy are loomless denim. They are made on looms or sorry, shuttle list denim. So made on looms without a shuttle. And, uh, this creates a lot of uniformity in how the, how the, the denim comes out and how it looks. It's much cheaper, uh, but among denim connoisseurs. They don't like it. They like either selvedge denim, selvedge denim, that's or raw denim or at the very pinnacle raw selvedge denim.
Sonny00:14:39Yeah.
JVL00:14:40Am I speaking your language, Sonny?
Sonny00:14:42These are the words I understand again from my mid two thousands period as a connoisseur of men's clothing. The selvedge denim was like the top and then like towards the end of it was like, Ross, it's like if you want to spend three hundred fifty dollars on a pair of jeans, but they're going to be real soft, you want this stuff.
JVL00:15:06So you if you want it soft, you don't want it raw. So this is I don't know if you guys remember when they first started advertising like stonewashed jeans. Yeah. What that means is washed, right? Acid wash all the different types of washes of jeans. What those were were ways of breaking in the denim when you bought it. The denim came sort of pre broken in. When you get raw denim jeans, you got to wear them for like months before like you can start to even bend your legs. They're very, very stiff, but it is enjoyed by connoisseurs. Selvedge is a portmanteau of self edging, which is a what? Oh, has to do with the edging edging of the the the denim as it is coming. Off the loom. And so if you ever see somebody wearing jeans with the cuffs turned up so that there is like a blue stripe from the underside that you can see, that is them showing off that they are wearing a self edging. It is sunny. This is something else you understand is the equivalent of when you see somebody wearing a blazer and the end button is unbuttoned because they're showing. Yeah, this has real working buttons. These aren't for decoration.
Sonny00:16:26You know who does that one matlabash loves loves unbuttoning one of his button me too.
JVL00:16:32Do you know this is such an old thing Tom Wolfe wrote an entire story about this and like the 90 late 1970s the first line of which is like real buttons that's it and it was about the the obsession with getting major will fly I have I have a I'm sorry short digression here I have a blazer in my in my closet that is missing one of the buttons is missing on it.
Sonny00:16:55So I need to get like I need essentially need to get a whole new set of buttons because you know they're all yeah you can't make some you can't just replace one unless you have like the little bag with the so I have to get a whole new set of buttons and I'm very strongly considering just going to a tailor and being like I need new buttons and also I want the jacket cuff buttons to work even though that will cost like an extra you know $80 or whatever per sleeve I'm sure some some insane amount of money at that point just get a new blazer made well that's the thing is it and then so then I start I start pricing this out I'm like well I might as well just go I got a guy and get a new get a whole new blazer I got a guy and he's amazing the same guy Leibash uses Leibash would never tell me who he was he hoarded that guy well I have him
JVL00:17:38and no no he what he does is he's from Hong Kong and he comes and does trunk shows so he like twice a year comes to the U.S. and he goes to like you know 10 or 12 major cities and just sets up in a hotel downtown and you make an appointment with him this is not at all like prostitution and you you show up and you tell him what you want you pick out fabrics he takes your measurements and then uh they send you they send you your garments it's amazing all right and it is the same price as buying something from Brooks Brothers which is the craziest fucking thing we
Sonny00:18:19gotta I after the show I'm gonna I'm gonna get get his info from you oh I will anyway so we have
JVL00:18:25the other thing I learned is that there is a reason that these jeans which were previously encasing the parts of other men fit differently and that is because like leather denim is constantly molding itself to you when you wash your denim it shrinks in measurable ways along each of the axes typically one possibly even two inches and then you put the clean denim back on and it begins to relax itself just sort of it lets go and stretches things out just sort of gets itself in the mood and and over time this contraction relaxing contraction relax push pull push pull acclimates the denim to you specifically so you got a pair of jeans that are a decade old you are never going to find another pair that fits that well because it took you a decade of work yeah god what are
Mike00:19:33these new eBay purchased Prada jeans let's say that you wear this pair for the next 10 years will it reshape itself to you rather than this previous owner will it rebel or will it stay loyal to the previous previous owner if there's a I mean this is a little bit like a Harry Potter wand yeah I was just saying we're like a dog you know the stray dog that runs and then does it find its old master and run back I think I have to kill the
JVL00:20:04the original owner of the jeans in order for the jeans to release their hold on it and become loyal
Mike00:20:08to me I believe that's how it works kill or fuck one or the other and so I I now have to make a
JVL00:20:17series of choices as to whether I am going to just commit to these jeans and there's only three pairs of them so I'd have to go and buy you know three more pairs from eBay of other people's pants and wear them for a few years so that they are what I want or do I start hunting around and trying to find other pairs of jeans that have perfect design to try which will like like I did this the last time like you know I had to buy like 10 pairs of jeans and try them on I found a brand because it's also not just it's also the mix of the materials which you don't want a hundred percent denim which you want is like 98 denim and two percent either elastocene or lycra because you wanted to have a little bit of a stretch to it sure a little bit of a stretch you don't want super stiff denim you want the gusseted crotch you have to have a gusseted crotch I I have a
Sonny00:21:18serious question have you ever gone to like just gone to the Levi's store and gone through all the different cuts of Levi's because I they make a lot of different kinds and shapes and sorts of pants there like I I can't I have a hard time believing exhausting and I don't think they make anything with a gusseted crotch I still am not I I still have the I still have the Prada axioms you sent me um and they I I ended up I I have I don't wear them I I don't really wear them anymore because I did eventually like wear out the uh the crotch area the crotch area is where is where the where happened a lot of stress down there well because because uh but anyway but I I like I I really think that you could find something something that will work for you oh I think
JVL00:22:06I can too but I'm just gonna have to try a lot because it turns out it turns out there's an entire industry of micro brew jeans oh no now we get to the real point out there in the world there are all these little companies that do their own jeans and some of them are like we have procured a loom from
Mike00:22:33France and we on this artisanal French loom in Louisville Kentucky are making
JVL00:22:41gusseted crotch jeans for only for less than you think once you amortize it out
Sonny00:22:46and uh well hold on when you say less than you think compare you don't have to give actual price but compared to the pair I'll give actual prices compared to a pair of Prana axioms what is the multiple that you are paying for a new pair of artisanal gusseted crotch jeans so it very very low so here you know
JVL00:23:12what let's play a game what would you expect 200 I would expect 200 250 dollars so you can find ways to spend 250 dollars but you got to be getting like the self-edge stuff and fancy fans the micro brew jeans are typically from like 120 to 150 I would say that's the comfortable range for the area is that what we would call those the small batch or micro small jeans and that's compared to the you know the Prana axioms I think
Sonny00:23:49what would be the Pappy of of jeans what is Pappy happy Van Winkle's the like the most expensive the Pappy Van Winkle is there there are multiple oh right I'm
JVL00:23:58sorry happy Van Winkle I thought you meant like the military surplus store Pappy um so I don't even know what the Pappy Van Winkle of jeans is I'm sure you can spend thousands of dollars if you just like get from a fashion house right if you want to spend I'm sure Hermes makes something in denim that's
Mike00:24:16nine thousand dollars as George Santos but the other thing is there is an
JVL00:24:24entire entire world of collectible jeans oh my gosh and the collectible jeans tend to be vintage collectible meaning like from gold miners in San Francisco in the 1850s so like you you know we found a pack of intact dungarees out in a you know in general store yes yes and put those things you can spend a lot of money on I don't think you wear them but they are all raw denim no elastocene there and I believe they're all self edge hmm so anyway this is just what I've been spending my time on and I don't know if you boys have any advice or any questions but I am I am now open for business as a denim concierge and well
Sonny00:25:20no so here's here's I want to get back to the washing question because this has always been my understanding is that you should wash your jeans no more than like once every six months what maybe once a year if you if you're worried about bacteria you can fold them up and put them in the freezer is my understanding and though the the freezer will kill anything you're worried about but for the most part you should just wear jeans never put them in the wash you have to wash them don't put them in the dryer for sure make sure you hang them up let them air dry but I so I the way I wear jeans let me just explain my so I wear like Levi five five eleven something's five elevens or so I know I've got I'll look I'll effort at this after I'm done here I'll take my pants off and look at the back label what could possibly go wrong but but I would say I would say Jeffrey Toobin was doing my my my understanding of how denim should work is again you just never wash unless you've got unless you have seriously spilled something on it or if you yeah if you I mean if you like if I if I poured a cup of coffee on my jeans then I would have to wash right I that would be understandable but just in day-to-day wear day-to-day wear if you're not out there in the mud pits or whatever as I am NOT I I wear a pair of jeans until they get holes in them and then I throw them away and I buy another pair of jeans and I and I never wash them I just never I never
JVL00:26:53wash them without giving away too much I would not say that I wash pairs of jeans once a year but I don't wash them all that much more than once a year I like you wear them until like the kids spill orange juice on them or something
Mike00:27:11no I'm probably I look I'm not the target audience for the denim deep dive or I was not you know what was it GQ that you were subscribing to Sonny Esquire Esquire sorry Esquire Esquire not fucking GQ what am I don't know clearly I wasn't subscribing to either so I am not the I I wash my jeans with the rest of my clothes every you know every you wash
Sonny00:27:40your dad how often do you wash your you wash your jeans like once every two
Mike00:27:44weeks at least if not once a week Jesus Christ and you know what I don't get married to a specific gene type I am just buying whatever I can find that seems reasonably priced and oh oh god Sonny is okay the camera is off and we're checking the the jeans here no I wash them whenever I need to and and
Sonny00:28:13like that's but that's the point you don't need to don't need don't actually
Mike00:28:16need to well that's the magic of denim but you're wearing but you're wearing clothes like out in the world and let me ask you something
JVL00:28:23let me ask you something it's getting real yeah they're biking in your jeans you're riding your bike scarf from air mass yeah but how often would you wash that would you wash it once a week after you cuz you know you wore it a scarf yeah silk scarf I would never wear a silk scarf okay let's see your wife had a silk scarf I don't know what she checked her how often would she wash
Mike00:28:47that I don't know I don't know all I do is never all I know is I'm wearing you can't wash silk I guess you can write silk but no I just look I I recognize fully I have come a long way in my appreciation for clothing and fashion because like as recently as like a year and a half ago I was just like wearing clothes that I've had for like the past 20 years sure and I've started to update my wardrobe a little bit to like so that I don't look like a high schooler from 2005 and I'm now looking like guys from eBay yeah exactly no so anyway I don't know all I'm saying is I'm happy with my wash schedule my jeans are fine they they they last me as long as I need them to and then I buy new jeans so I'm happy question though yeah I had a question you actually mentioned the word but I was already thinking of it to sort of you know get back to the beginning here of your research the history of denim what are dungarees and how are they different from blue jeans I don't know the answer to that are they different or is that like an old-fashioned like corn pone way like that's like what that's like what
JVL00:30:08dungarees buddy Epson called them is like Xerox right it's like what they called really I believe it was Levi Strauss's dungarees interesting could be wrong about that now what I have not found and what I fully expect to find as I continue my journey is denim fetishists because there must be in the same way that there are people have fetishes for latex and leather there
Mike00:30:31have to be people have fetish for JVL here JVL here's my advice the moment you come upon that it's time it's time to stop it's time to stop close my fetish
JVL00:30:41is for turn around that's my fetish in my world you get a porn hub and there's like a naked girl and she's showing you like the garlic press from Oxo and wearing an Omega right did you didn't and or you know she's holding up a Ticonderoga pencil and she's like look at this it's perfect you don't need to fucking do anything else to the pencil because the pencil has been designed perfectly that's what I would that's my fetish channel I so I I just I did turn
Sonny00:31:16off the camera so I could turn around and look at my so I wear 505s most of the time that's what I thought I wear I wear 505
JVL00:31:22they're great when the tape and I said are they 505 so fine let's see what do I
Sonny00:31:26wear I wear the 505 regular and then if I'm if I'm going out if I'm going out to an event that's not that doesn't call for a suit you know it calls for it calls for a jeans that you can wear with like maybe a maybe a stylish sport coat or something I tend to throw on 502s which are an everyday tapered jean with slightly roomy fit up top so I got yeah my waist is a little you know there's there's room to room to lose there but it's it's a that's that's a really nice one it's like kind of it's a more tailored fit down at the at the bottom of the leg but it's not skinny it's not like you know it's not like a you know a skinny jean it's like a it's just it just fits a little more a little more suit like which I which welcome to denim talk denim talk we've had so many talks well this is really your throwback to early early sub sub standard talk
JVL00:32:22honestly though truthfully I am at sea about what to do in this and the fact that I can't just what it you know what it does it's it's like how I I always order the same thing at a restaurant like every restaurant that I I frequent there's one dish that I know I like there and so that's what I order every damn time and the couple times in my life that I've been like you know why do I only ever order that that salad at chopped I'll try something new I get it and I fucking hate it and it just really reinforces my instinct to like never deviate well here one of the things I do in life is when I find something that I like I just go out and I buy a lot of them yeah stuck them up right there you find find running shoes I really like great buy four pairs just go stick them in the closet and you know as you run out you just so you don't have to I only bought six pairs of prana axioms and my problem the only reason I'm in this place right now because I didn't buy
Sonny00:33:17twelve the lesson as always is to buy twelve
Mike00:33:21there is a method to the madness I mean it's the same way I buy you know I buy Mateos salsa at Costco like as many as they'll let me right and I just keep it in my basement because it's the best the best jarred salsa there is if Mateo
JVL00:33:35started putting out something else another kind of salsa then it was like maybe it's the same maybe it's not but see but here's the thing but here's the
Mike00:33:43thing I don't mind trying something and saying I didn't like it or it wasn't for me but every once in a while because I was hey I was a pace picante guy forever pace picante no added sugar it was great and then I came across Mateos at Costco one day on a Costco run three or four or five years ago it changed my life because I was willing to give something a try it didn't look like something I would like a little cartoon you know jalapeno pepper on the label and yet what so I'm just telling you JVL new year knit well okay maybe not new you
JVL00:34:21but try I am wearing other people's pants yeah that's pretty new I just
Mike00:34:28think you got to follow your heart follow your nose on this thing and you'll find what you're seeking that's my message to you or I'll get the iron claw yes the iron claw well that would be a great transition but we got to talk because Sonny insists on it talk about the box office don't we I don't want to
Sonny00:34:49talk about the box office oh well then
Mike00:34:51let's move on then I'm happy to know hold on real quick Wonka is still number
Sonny00:34:56one in the last week movies got like it's it's the only real family movie in theaters during the portion of the year when families are sick and tired of talking to each other right as they've all been at home for two weeks and they want to go out and do something so it's a it's it's a hit to hit there you go Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom also doing it's doing better I think then people thought it might yeah it's going to it's going to outgross the Marvel's but it's still it's going to lose an enormous amount of money because that movie it's
JVL00:35:27not going to do 10 of the originals gross right no no no no no no no it's
Sonny00:35:33it's going to do about it'll probably do about 30 or 40 worldwide um not not 10 percent but no it's I mean like you have the there is an interesting history doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme right you have an interesting little rhyme here in that in 2000 the end of 2018 beginning of 2019 you have Aquaman and Captain Marvel come out and both of those movies gross more than a billion dollars and it's the absolute peak of the comic book bubble this is the X-Men number one era of of comic book uh times it is it's everything is everything is huge everything is doing huge numbers every piece of crap that you put out there is is is making a ton of money um and now just four years later you have it it almost almost again perfectly synchronous you have the Marvels come out and it grosses it grosses like nine hundred million dollars less and you have Aquaman 2 come out it's probably gonna grow seven to eight hundred million dollars less than its predecessor and like that's that's it this this the bubble is up this doesn't mean that you won't have comic book movies that make a lot of money they can still make you know spider-man across the spider-verse did a huge number for for its budget obviously you know as the Guardians of the Galaxy volume 3 did very well it's not it's not impossible to make money with comic book movies but they are much more execution dependent than they were it's not the
Mike00:37:08money-making button you press anymore automatically so anyway it's it's
Sonny00:37:14interesting but we don't want to talk about box office on the show anymore so let's not let's not waste everybody's time
Mike00:37:21this is raw this is kind of the JVL episode because not only have you if you dominated and I'm not complaining by the way dominated our dudes chatting conversation about denim but you are freakin stoked to talk about the movie that we're talking about this week the iron claw which was number 7 in the box office ranking but doing pretty well for a small movie a 24 movie the iron claw Sonny should we jump into it with a big boy review of the iron claw the iron claw it is from
Sonny00:37:58the studio a 24 which is kind of interesting in and of itself because in like two days this will be the 10th highest grossing a 24 movie of all time speaking of the box office it is about to the Vaughn Eric family the movie opens with almost a almost a tribute to Raging Bull the the father Fritz Von Erich is in the middle of the ring in slow motion it's all shot in black and white and we see him give his finishing move to his opponent and it's all like vaguely operatic and also kind of terrifying and he is an operatic and terrifying figure as this film forward progresses he is again the father of the Von Erich clan you have Zac Efron who stars as Kevin Von Erich Jeremy Allen White stars as Kevin Carey Von Erich Harris Dickinson most recently of a murder at the end of the world fame as David Von Erich as well as their brother their little brother Mike Von Erich who just wants he just wants to play music man just wants to play music he's played by talking about camera angles and he is what's that and talked about camera and talk about camera angles he wants to talk about he wants to talk about production values of the WWE shows I they look anyone who knows and JVL is gonna talk more about this I know but anyone who knows anything about the Von Erich is that it's it's a family that is steeped in tragedy there is a a the the supposed Von Erich curse which led to the deaths of all but one of the sons and this movie actually under one of the sons out of out of the movie because his his suicide was so similar to another of the characters suicide so these characters you know these brothers they die by disease they they die by suicide there is a a kind of running thing and the father Fritz Von Erich is played by Holt McAleny I can never pronounce his name Holt McAllen McAllen Macalene I don't hold let's just hold his hold he he he and his wife see this this is just God's plan to to burnish the greatness of the Von Erich name haven't needed a champion haven't needed again I'm gonna let JBL talk about the the history of the Von Erichs because it's it's interesting in and of itself and this movie does a good job but it also elides some stuff as I as I kind of hinted at what is what is what's what's really here's what I enjoyed about this movie I felt pandered to in a way that I very rarely feel pandered to at the movies in that there's a moment in this film where there's a needle drop it's it's Tom Sawyer by Rush and it plays I think in its entirety over us over a montage of 1980s wrestling in the midst of Jimmy Carter dashing the hopes of this hard-working you know American family by cancelling the Olympics one of the brothers was gonna be was I think a shot putter Harry Harry was just Harry was discus thank you Kerry was a discus champion he was gonna go to the Olympics and you know possibly win gold for the for the Von Erich household and and and this just this whole sequence of events is is so in tune with my weird upbringing and and I think a lot of I think JBL maybe you as well although you may not be as big of a rush fan as I am but like the whole thing is just it was deeply appealing to me and this in and as a as a picture qua picture it is a what we might describe as a male weepy it is it is very much designed to get the men in the audience emotional and it is it there's a scene towards the end and I don't I maybe I'll talk about it a little later but there's a scene towards the end that is it is not realistic as the rest of this movie has been realistic and should work in no way whatsoever and yet does it absolutely does and I was like this is this is ridiculous also I'm probably gonna cry here in a second this is this is this is absurd that's the sort of movie this is I am I am not surprised that it is hanging on at the box office and and picking up audience I think it is it is a it is both tragic and crowd-pleasing and that is a very hard mix to pull off with a picture of this sort I enjoyed it a great deal I loved all the performances Holt is great but Zac Efron is is so good in this Zac Efron is an underrated actor I vote I've liked Zac Efron for a long time and he is he is exceptionally good in this movie there's this moment where the brothers are all line dancing at a wedding and you just watch it and it's fascinating because Zac Efron has put on 60 pounds of muscle right it out she's enormous I mean like his I mean like shoulders arms chest like he he looks like a professional wrestler in the ultimate warrior yeah I mean he I mean it like he looks like a roided out 1980s professional wrestler and but there's this but it but it hasn't cost him any of his innate physicality like so there's this moment where the brothers are all line dancing and you can see the rest of the actors concentrating very hard on getting their moves right and when the camera slides over to Zac Efron he's just moving just moving his legs just just doing his little dance because he can because the he has that innate physicality that it that the innate liveness and has not lost any of it um I don't know I like this movie I like this movie a great deal I could see it winding up being the movie I'd most regret leaving off of my top 10 by the end of the year 10 what's that I could not believe this was not in your top 10 I I the thing that the the only reason it wasn't is because I watched it so late in the year that I always worry about recency bias I always worry about being like I'm just putting this on the top 10 because it's the movie I liked a lot that I saw most recently I don't I try to avoid doing that but it also ends up hurting movies like this or Ferrari which maybe we'll talk about I like I uh but I I liked it a great deal and I like everything about it it's it's very very good and again it's it is it is it is melodrama that is very keyed to my interests which makes it extremely appealing for me but I I don't know how that translates to everybody else what did
JVL00:44:53you think Mike because what I kept I I am so intimately familiar with the Von Ehrich story that I cannot possibly conceive of how anybody who isn't would feel the movie and so when I've talked to be like I talked to Shannon I've been like I really want you to see this movie but also I have no idea if it would mean anything to you or if it would hit or if you really have to know the story to
Mike00:45:19to appreciate it so I went in cold I knew nothing about the story I didn't read about the Von Ehrich's before I went in even I just was like I just want to see this movie as it is I found myself at times a little confused about for instance things like how old everybody was you know who was meaning like the birth order like who was the oh you know they at a certain point they explained you know that that Zac Efron's character is the oldest although he's not the real oldest but because the oldest brother had died as a child I was a little confused I found the the story of the families and the individual members of the families like rise in the wrestling world baffling I was so confused about what at what point they were in there like all of a sudden Carrie is like the big man and all the stuff and like I had no idea why I felt like it wasn't well-established unless you knew the story like I get that Rick flick like there was the fight with Rick like I get all of that stuff it just was it was opaque to me because I don't know all the different you know I grew up in the 90s and to the extent I watched wrestling it was like WWF and right yeah exactly so like this all of this world is a mystery to me and I don't get it and I found I also another thing I didn't quite understand was like in this is I know this is like touching the third rail of talking with wrestling fans but like so is it fucking real or is it not because like this whole thing about who's gonna win like but we know who's gonna win so why is there any tension or drama in who's gonna win in the fight because they've already explained how they've how they how these are all it's all work and yet like it's not and so that was very confusing to me and so I guess throughout the movie I didn't really like it I could appreciate what I was watching but I didn't like it and then the scene that you're talking about Sonny and really actually the
JVL00:47:40follow-on scene at the very final scene and come back yeah if you if you if you
Mike00:47:44want to go see what you should talk about what the scene is so well yeah and it's two scenes right it's the the the scene where after turn off everybody's off okay Carrie spoilers Carrie kills himself and dies in under the tree in their house kills himself by shooting himself in the chest and he emerges in the afterlife and all of the dead brothers including the little six-year old oldest brother who I don't even think Carrie was alive when the oldest brother was around anyway like that they're all together and they're all happy and they're all like back together as brothers that sequence has no purpose
Sonny00:48:28has has no has no business being in this movie has no totally realistic movie and it it is ridiculous when he takes the little like three-year-old boy's hand he's like I'm glad to meet you oldest brother it's absurd but that's what he's taking place in Niagara Falls Frankie Angel that so that sequence is taking place in
JVL00:48:48Kevin's mind so so what has happened is Kerry kills himself Kevin strangles his father nearly kills him and then he picks up Kerry's body carries him into the house and lays him on the dining room table and puts his hands on him and that is when we get that sequence which I don't think is a like we're showing you heaven we are showing you what Kevin is telling himself in that moment to get himself through it right this is Kevin's idealized version of like well they're all in heaven together now so it's okay
Mike00:49:22but regardless what as a regardless of sure I thought but it also it because the movie earns it the movie earns the the the camaraderie and brotherhood of
JVL00:49:37these brothers and establishing this this is what this told me my big question to you told the first half of the movie is these four brothers just kicking around together like you know eating at the table and working out and the David no not Dave Michael wants to be a musician and his parents say can't play a gig and he's like jock brothers instead of what you might expect in a movie like this like goofing on him for one to be a musician instead of being a tough guy wrestler instead they're the ones that help him sneak out of the house and they take him to the gig so he can play and when they go to pick him up from his garage band practice they're sitting outside listening to him and they think he's
Mike00:50:21great yes and did you buy all that stuff I think totally together and no no it that all that worked so well that you want to hang out with me because they feel like great guys yeah they felt cool and and I bought the Brotherhood and and I think that's the actors I mean it's all they're all you know I don't know who played Mike but you know the other three actors I know and Mike's a kid
JVL00:50:47from Mike is the kid from that we just watched murder of the no no no that's
Mike00:50:54that's that's David no no no Mike is the youngest Mike is the youngest and and that is some nobody actor I've never heard of oh I guess you're right David David is yeah David you're right David is yeah so Stanley Simmons is Mike thank you yeah okay so but the other the other scene the final final scene is to me what to me was more of the tearjerker Oh which is right dusting your theater - oh my gosh it was it got me right right in the right the core there so like that scene where he essentially is sitting there watching his sons act in the way that he and his brothers did and the the pain of being alone washing over him okay that's all sad that's all painful it's his son's coming to him and their little will like six and seven yeah yeah they're little boys yeah they're like they're like my kids age ages saying we'll be your friend like dad why are you sad and he
JVL00:52:05says yeah cuz I used to be a brother and now I'm not anymore his voice sorry
Mike00:52:11brother yeah we'll be your brother's dad we'll be your brothers now incredibly sad it's it's the the everything it works in that scene so well hits you right there and it's it's sad not just because they're having to say this it's sad because you know that like it's it can't be I mean even what they're saying like it will not be that way because your sons cannot be your brothers and nobody can ever undo the horror and the tragedy that has been done and it's interesting as you say that sunny it's a crowd-pleaser but
Sonny00:52:52man it ends on a downer so that's my end on a downer it ends on I'm sorry that is not a downer moment that's that is a that's the upbeat moment that sends them
Mike00:53:04out that sends them out happy crying yeah that's a cathartic moment for me I didn't I didn't take it that way I was - I was depressed after it I was like I was like oh man that's that's like that's interesting that's just it's just it's just so it's so it's it hits home and yes I know he smiles and they're playing and they're having a good time and there is yes he does sort of move beyond that but for me I was I was left with the feeling of man this tragedy like you can't you can't get rid of it it's you only have to you could only move on the curse yeah it's the curse so I don't know like I did not love it as much as you guys I really liked it I just have a lot of those questions oh and also like this is again I think this is why 80s wrestling that I wasn't I wasn't alive for most of the 80s so like I wasn't watching it but like I just did not need to see all of I'm sorry all of these like like beefy man walking around in underwear just not not for me not for me didn't appeal
JVL00:54:06to me maybe you guys are different man the fabulous free birds there's there's
Mike00:54:12so much so much all right JVL I wouldn't let's let her rip let's let
JVL00:54:16let's hear what you thought about this movie I mean I I loved it and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it I this movie has lived inside of me in a way that no movie in the last year or so has I don't think I'm dying to see it again it's it's an it's an amazing story and this is one of the cases in which the movie version of it is not overselling anything so this you know the the Sportatorium in Dallas and how big they care at the Von Erichs were that's how it actually was so they were you know was one of the first nationally televised wrestling shows it was the WCCW and they were absolute stars this is their their appeal was so cross-cultural that seventy percent of the gate on nights when they wrestled at the Sportatorium was female seventy percent yeah like you know girls came out it was and there was this thing where you know like grandmothers loved them right like the older women thought of them as their sons the younger girls thought him as their brothers or the boys they wanted to date and they what happens to them is so terrible and so I mean just to sketch out for anybody who who isn't gonna see it so the the second brother David is the one who's chosen to become the world champion a third counting Jack who is dead we got I'm sorry and and he dies shortly after be winning the world title as he is in Japan so he's wrestling in Japan he's on
Mike00:56:05the road he dies alone in his hotel room of a ruptured intestine
JVL00:56:09shortly after that Kerry von Erich you this so there's the scene where Kerry von Erich and Kevin are talking and nighttime Kerry's having a beer and he's like I can't sleep I'm gonna go out for a ride and so I know what happens here because what happens is that Kerry von Erich gets into a car crash while driving his motorcycle and he loses his foot and that whole time I'm just like
Mike00:56:38no no no no no no don't do it don't do it don't do it and so but they don't
JVL00:56:41show you the car crash what the movie does is it gives you this first-person POV driving the roads on the motorcycle at night and then it cuts to black and it comes back on Kerry von Erich just getting out of his bed in the morning and like everything's normalish except then he's reaching for a crutch and that's it's like okay well he's on crutches what's going on and the reveal as he walks into the kitchen they give you a full body shot and you see that he doesn't have his fucking foot and you know so I don't know how that hits for everybody else because for me the the hit isn't the reveal that he doesn't have his foot it's like when he takes the keys to leave the house is when I'm like god no don't do it.
Mike00:57:25This is the one yeah this is the moment yeah.
JVL00:57:27So the other you know there's just there's a lot going on in it and I think there's some great movie making for instance there is a scene where the the brothers are all in the ring following a match with the fabulous free birds who are their own whole thing and Fritz comes in with them and Fritz announces that David is going to get his title shot and after that Kevin will be a world champion and Kerry will be a world champion and Michael will be a world champion and you get these reactions these very subtle reactions on all of the brothers faces as they see what is happening and it's amazing work I mean that that is. It's just an astonishingly great scene but what I wanted to posit to you guys and this is what my big thought about this is that this is actually a haunted house movie but the haunted house is a family and the demons inside the house which are trying to kill the people who are trapped inside the haunted house are the parents. That's what this story really is and what makes it so interesting is that neither the parents nor the kids realize that this is what is happening. The parents think they're being good parents and the kids think that their parents love them and that's you know whereas normal observers look at this shit and seeing Fritz is a fucking monster like this is how can he be doing this to his children his children don't see it that way even today like when you all of this almost the entire movie is based on a like 25,000 word Texas Monthly article from 15 years ago called the last one Eric and I mean Kevin you know Kevin has slightly complicated feelings about his family but not really like he just loves them and loves his mom loves his dad thought there's dad was really trying his best even if he was misguided and stuff but Fritz Fritz did this the father did this to his kids and his children's his son's blood is on his head. In his hands uh and the extent to which he put them in positions to to be hurt in pursuit of his own like weird obsessions like he was obsessed with winning the world championship title right which which you have to understand so this is like a question right isn't like I wanted to win a Super Bowl and I never won a Super Bowl so you Tommy Brady you're gonna win a Super Bowl ring for me what it is is I always wanted to be cast in a Broadway show and I never got it because the casting directors were all mean to me and they screwed me so I'm gonna stage manage your career so that you can eventually be cast in a Broadway show that's that's what this is right he's like a stage mother but a stage mother who's killing
Sonny01:00:40his fucking boys yeah I I want to say hey Mike Mike raised a point about not understanding what was happening in the world of wrestling and I I think it is worth explaining that just a little bit for folks who see this and don't maybe don't so you know this is for me for explaining this is before the real rise of the WWF you know it's Vince McMahon is kind of consolidating power at this point but it's
Mike01:01:02it's really before that and all the regional wrestling so you had all these regional circuits
Sonny01:01:09but there was one heavyweight belt that kind of went through the circuit because the circuits
JVL01:01:15were all part of an alliance the NWA the National Wrestling Association right right right right
Sonny01:01:19so so there was there was one like in world heavyweight belt and there were real negotiations and there was like a you know a shadowy cabal who kind of picked who got to it so when when when Fritz is talking about you know getting kind of screwed out of this it's because he was never he was never picked to be the guy that held the one unified title for all that he you know. He was the local champion. He he did great stuff on the on the the local you know what the local Texas circuit whatever it was but the but it but there were there was an actual like world heavyweight title belt and that's what he wanted his kids to get and what he did was so this is you know
JVL01:02:06when Fritz was wrestling he was a wrestler and the wrestlers don't decide who's going to get to wear the belt right that that's right the owners of the promotion. So, so what Fritz was was bothered that he didn't you know wasn't picked and so his his strategy to redress this this brave insult against him was to buy the Texas promotion. So when he retired from wrestling he bought the Texas promotion which included the sport auditorium uh which by the way the eagles play the beatles played at the sport auditorium which is really funny and so he bought the venue and he bought the the property and so he. Became one of the guys who were in the shadowy cabal of the NWA and his plan from the beginning from the time they were like you know six and seven years old is that my boys will be the cornerstone of my promotion and now that I have a seat at the table to to make the decision on who to put the belt on. We'll put the but we'll get the belt on one of my boys and so what the belt is I mean the belt. The belt is an economic incentive because when you're the world champion you spend your time traveling to all the circuits because you bring the prestige with you right so that is that is what it is what it means to be the world champion is simply you are good
Mike01:03:31for the business and that when you go from territory to territory you can draw money.
JVL01:03:37Right that makes sense to me yes totally makes sense. And so actually I thought Kevin sort of explains that in the movie very well when he's says you know it's like getting a promotion at work.
Mike01:03:49Right that was explained in the in the dialogue I thought all of what you just described is explained well my my issue is like the I almost needed like a schematic diagram of a map.
Sonny01:04:05I think if you don't understand the pre WWF world where you had all of where you had competing circuits that were still kind of allied together. Yes, it's hard to understand what's happened. I I understand what Mike is saying it's yeah, it's it's hard to understand what was going on there without without a little bit of that's like wrestling is wrestling with people in
JVL01:04:24San Diego or watching the same thing as the people in Georgia or watch the same people as people in New York back today. That's not true. Like you know, you only saw Jerry the King Lawler if you were in Memphis, right? That's where he wrestled and when we saw the Von Erichs when the Von Erichs were in Texas until they unless there was like a special deal where they were going to go. To go to the Georgia Federation and wrestle there for two weeks and I guess I I got I
Mike01:04:51didn't get the sense from the movie that they became big enough to be big draws in the other circuits. Yeah, that was not that was not that was like subtext and it was not text enough for me
JVL01:05:04stadium. They filled Texas State like, you know, football stadium. They were such a big drop there. There is this insane lay bash and I because lay bash has been obsessed with the Von Erichs since he was, you know, 12 years old to sure. And he sent me a thing from the memorial service they held for David Erick in which this woman comes out and she has written her own song called Heaven Needed a Champion. And she sings this thing like in the middle of a wrestling ring and it's just the craziest fucking thing.
Mike01:05:37Yeah, it's. So I want to I want to ask you about this because I love this haunted house film theory. Your idea that you have posited JVL because the house does is such a central location in the movie and and by the end of it, right, like by the time of like Carrie's suicide, it is it is like haunting to be there. It's like it's like it's because it's empty, too. It's like a big house that you've seen throughout this movie filled with with boys with with young men. And there's like nobody there anymore. That's so creepy. I also want to ask about the mother. I mean, your tyrannies character, because she is low key evil in this movie, and if not evil through action, it's like evil by neglect or evil by inaction, repression, evil
JVL01:06:28by repression.
Mike01:06:29I think.
JVL01:06:30Yeah. Right. She's so fascinating. So, yeah. So she is like incredibly repressed. This is what you could read. This movie almost is like a how not to manual parenting, even when the parents love the kid. This is one thing, you know, like shitty parents who don't love their kids or who are evil. Like that's like, fine. You see that all the time, right? That's like a Dickensian thing, you know, or like the Cinderella with the wicked stepmother. Yeah. But this is not, these are parents who, who think they're doing the best for their kids and really do love them and wind up doing terrible, terrible things. Uh, you know, in the Texas monthly piece, like heaven, heaven loves his mother. And she talks a little bit about how the trauma of losing her eldest. Jack at seven, like warped her, which makes some sense. Right. So, or, I mean, her, her, the kid Jack drowns in a freak accident, um, and he's six years old and she's, she's like, you know, from that moment on, like I spent the rest of my life wondering, oh, is it going to happen again? And then it happens again and again and again, again, I mean, again, five of her six kids die. Yeah. I mean, she, you know, it's, uh. And, uh, and her reaction was to withdraw and pull inside. Right. I mean that scene where she, she is freaking out before going to Michael's funeral because she only has one black dress and that's the black dress that she wore to David's funeral. And she's afraid that people will, like, I don't know, think less of her or something. Right. And, you know, Kevin's Kevin's wife who, who knows the score and who's a great character, right? So if you think that Kevin's wife is gonna be like a girl who's on the make, but she's actually not, she's fabulous.
Mike01:08:18Uh, and she knows there's a reason that they are married and still married for years.
JVL01:08:23They've been, yeah. Still married today. Um, and, uh, you know, she's like, it's gonna be okay. You gotta put this on now though, you know, and it, I don't know, I thought more tyranny was great. The, the way they leaned into Catholicism, another like, you know, so they're, they're deeply Catholic family in Dallas and I don't know, but I think there aren't all that many. Are there Catholic? Are there a lot of Catholics in Texas?
Mike01:08:45I mean, Texas is a huge state and there's a lot of white, I'm sorry. Are there a lot of white Catholics in Texas? A lot of Germans, a lot of Germans who, you know, who, who came from the Catholic part of Germany who settled in the hill region. I think, I mean, I, I don't think that's, I don't think it's that unusual. It's just too big of a state, even in 1970s and eighties, like it, that, that did not surprise me. It was just, it's a different flavor than how. We normally see Catholicism in films, which is so concentrated in the Northeast and on Irish and Italians. Yeah.
JVL01:09:20It was, I, I love the crap out of it. I loved everything about it and, but I am, as I said, fully willing to if acknowledge that Mike, your verdict on it, like objectively as a movie, maybe the right one, like it's just for me, I'm so perfectly tuned to this and it's a story that I care about and never even knew that. I wanted to see as a film, I'll say one more thing. Zac Efron is miscast, um, Zac Efron just by all rights should have played David because
Mike01:09:53he is wildly charismatic, but he's not blonde and he's, he doesn't quite look like David.
JVL01:09:59Well, but the problem is that Zac Efron is a movie star and because Kevin is the one who lives and it all has to be told through his perspective. The movie star has to play Kevin and even miscast playing. This is very sort of quiet introspective thing. Zac Efron does amazing work when, again, I, I just think if you were looking at the von Eric family and saying, who should, who should, uh, Zac Efron play, you would've said, well, David, right? This guy who is larger than life and a great talker and funny and all, but Efron is fabulous.
Mike01:10:36He ought to be nominated for, for best actor, Sonny, will there be Oscar nominations from this movie for, for acting?
Sonny01:10:42Hard to say, uh, probably not for Zac Efron, even though he absolutely deserves it. I, I agree with that. Um, Holt for best supporting maybe, but that's a pack category this year. I, I don't know. I like the problem is the problem is it's been an amazing year for acting like all around.
JVL01:10:58Uh, yeah. I mean all the people in the best actor category are like hall of fame level.
Sonny01:11:05Yeah. So it's, it's, it's hard maybe I, I, I think he deserves it. Absolutely. But it, it would be. It's, it's a, it's a reach cause I mean, you're, you've got, you've got Killian Murphy who's, who has one spot and probably maybe the wind locked up. Um, I think you got Paul Giamatti for the holdovers, who is a academy favorite people. People like that movie a lot. Um, I think you got, I think Bradley Cooper probably gets a nomination for maestro, right? So that's 60% of the spots right there. I, uh, maybe, maybe he fits into, uh, but supporting actors even more loaded. I mean, there are like three different actors you could dominate from Oppenheimer. You got, uh, Ryan Gosling is gonna get one for Ken and Barbie. Um, uh, I don't know.
Mike01:11:53Interesting. Um, can I say two other things about the acting, um, one it's weird as, as somebody who really became obsessed and, and loved the bear, um, to see Jeremy Allen white sort of take a backseat as a supporting actor in this movie after, cause he is the lead in, in the bear and does a great job. I never, I never watched, um, uh, what's the show that he was on, uh, uh, shameless, shameless. I never watched that show. So he's sort of on my radar new. Um, I, I, I was almost sort of, I, I wish I, there had been more, uh, Carrie in, in the movie. Like it was, I sort of, I, I really like that actor.
Sonny01:12:32I'm just gonna throw this out there. Uh, several times when he was on the screen, I thought to myself, television actor.
Mike01:12:39Really?
Sonny01:12:40I mean, compared to everybody else.
JVL01:12:42Fair enough.
Sonny01:12:43I mean, compared to everybody else on the screen, he was the weakest presence.
JVL01:12:47Yeah. I liked him.
Sonny01:12:49I liked him. I mean, I thought he was good. Don't get me wrong. I thought he was good. Uh, but I, I definitely like, I thought he was, I thought I, I, I just like compared to Harris Dickinson. I see. And I disagree with JBL. Like I, I think actually Harris Dickinson is perfect for that role.
JVL01:13:02He did a great job of it.
Sonny01:13:03Um, and I think, I think Zac Efron is, is great too, as like the, as, as the, the quiet and disappointed brother. Yeah. I just, I, I thought it, I thought it, I thought it worked. I don't know.
Mike01:13:15So the other acting comment I'll say, or the other casting comment I'll say is I thought the guy who played Ric Flair did nothing. It did nothing for me. Okay.
JVL01:13:25So this is something I wanted to talk about. This is an, an example of how unbelievably great Ric Flair is. Every time you see somebody translated from real life into the movies, the movie version of them is a thousand times cooler. Yes. And it doesn't matter who that person is in real life. Like whether it's Neil Armstrong, a guy who walked on the fucking moon or John F. Kennedy Jr. or, or, or like the actual JFK, right? I mean, you make the movie version of them and it makes the real life version look small. They're better looking. They're yeah. Ric Flair is so good. And so just amazing that the movie version is tiny. The movie version looks like this pale shade. Of what Ric Flair actually is. You can't, you can't duplicate it. And I don't know how to explain to people that, like, I, I don't even know how to explain Ric Flair. Like it's just awesome.
Mike01:14:23He's amazing. I totally agree. I totally agree. So those are my final two thoughts. Uh, the movie has grown on me as I've thought about it. I will, I will also say that I've, I enjoy it more, um, as I, as I get away from it and think about it more. So those are my thoughts. Any final thoughts from you guys on the iron? Claw? I love the, I mean, it's all like on the nose, but it's great. Like, you know, what's the real iron claw who, who wields the iron claw in this movie. It's amazing. It's great.
Sonny01:14:53Love it. That first shot is that raging bull shot. It's like, ah, iron claw.
Mike01:14:58All right. Uh, well, I think that's all the time we are giving to this episode. Check us out at sub beacon.com. We went a lot along, but that's okay. We had a lot to talk about, uh, wishing everybody once again, a happy new year. And we will talk to you next time.
?01:15:14Yeah.
Sonny01:15:15So it was definitely a Google Chrome problem, not a, oh, good fiber.
Mike01:15:24Oh, so, so this is, this is boating well for your, I think this is going to be a big, big
Sonny01:15:31life change. I'm going to have so much more money to spend on four Ks going to be great or denim or denim.
Mike01:15:38I'm sure it's fine.
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