#198. Wes Anderson Draft!
Listen to this episode ↗on Substack, where the show lives now
This short bonus episode, taped immediately after the Asteroid City review, skips the usual opening banter and goes straight into a three-round snake draft of Wes Anderson's filmography. Sonny gets the top overall pick and, after some ribbing from JVL for supposedly poaching his favorite, takes The Royal Tenenbaums (which all three agree is the correct number one), then loops back for Bottle Rocket and The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou, the latter praised for peak-comeback Bill Murray and its Portuguese David Bowie needle-drops. Mike goes with Rushmore, the stop-motion Isle of Dogs, and Fantastic Mr. Fox, openly admitting he's "running out of options" since he doesn't much care for Moonrise Kingdom, Asteroid City, or Life Aquatic. JVL takes The French Dispatch and, by his own admission out of default rather than passion, The Grand Budapest Hotel, before closing the whole draft with a joke pick — Wes Anderson's self-directed American Express "My Life, My Card" commercial, which he calls the most knowingly self-aware Anderson has ever been about his own auteur mannerisms, distinguishing it from the more "precious" Stella Artois ad and comparing it to Michael Bay's self-parodying commercial. The post-draft chat digresses into Jason Schwartzman functioning as Anderson's personal "WPA program," and a longer riff on the Owen Wilson–Anderson creative split, with Sonny and JVL tracing how the class-conflict themes running through the trio's three co-written films — Bottle Rocket, Rushmore, and The Royal Tenenbaums — vanished once Wilson stopped writing with him, followed by JVL's tribute to Owen Wilson as the defining post-9/11 movie star.
From the show notes
I'll post a poll later today so you can vote on the winner.
Full transcript
Mike00:00:00Welcome to the Sub-Beacon bonus episode. We just finished talking about Asteroid City, the latest offering from modern auteur director Wes Anderson. So we thought we'd have a draft of Wes Anderson movies. We're going to do this as we always do, three rounds in a sneak style. Let's go through the list here. We're going to start with Sonny, who gets the first overall pick, then me, and then JVL. And then we'll go back through that backwards and then forward one more round. Let's just go ahead and get started here. Sonny, you're first. What are you picking for the first overall pick in the Wes Anderson draft?
Sonny00:00:51Boy, I don't like having to go first here. I really would have preferred to have a back of the first round here. This is an incredibly hard pick for me. This is an incredibly hard pick for me. And I'm just going to have to go with what I always go with when I'm like, what is my favorite Wes Anderson movie? And that's the Royal Tenenbaums, which is...
JVL00:01:15You just said moments ago that Grand Budapest Hotel was your favorite Wes Anderson movie.
Sonny00:01:20No, I did not.
JVL00:01:21You were doing this purely to take my favorite Wes Anderson movie from me.
Sonny00:01:26Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I did not say that. I did not say that. What I said was Grand Budapest Hotel is one of the best movies of the 2010s. I didn't follow that up with my second thought there, which is that the Royal Tenenbaums is arguably the best movie of the 2000s. He's greatness spanning multiple decades. That is not...
JVL00:01:48It's a perfect pick. Does anybody disagree that the Royal Tenenbaums is the best Wes Anderson movie? I mean, I guess, of course, people disagree about this. I've had this argument with Matt Labash. And Steve Hayes, who each have a different one that they like best.
Mike00:02:02Yeah, I mean, it is the most... It is the most... To me, it's the best overall. It's the right pick.
Sonny00:02:09I think it's the movie that perfectly melds his stylistic obsessions with storytelling prowess. I mean, I think it's just... It's perfect.
Mike00:02:19And it has something to say, too, right? I mean, it's... Right, right. I mean, would any of us have not... If JVL or I had gone, we would have both picked that first, right? 100%. Yeah. 100%. So there it is. That's how you know. That's how you know. All right, is it my turn? Yeah. I don't know.
Sonny00:02:36You're the one in charge of the order.
Mike00:02:37It is my turn. It was rhetorical, Sonny. You got your first pick. I have to go with Rushmore. And I know that it's not like the perfect second pick, but it, to me, is such a... You know, it is not Bottle Rocket. It is like Wes Anderson sort of like coming into his own. It's like the beginning of Jason Schwartzman. It's also the beginning of the Bill Murray-essence. Like, this is like Bill Murray's 2.0 debut. And I just, I love it. I love the sort of, like, it's a movie I saw when I was a teenager, and it's sort of, it kind of, it's very much a movie for teenagers, also a little, you know, a little satiric. You know, it's sort of like a self-aware of sort of the way that teenagers are, teenagers who are like Max Fisher are sort of, you know, sort of get a little out over their skis, and I just love it.
JVL00:03:47I don't think any of us had ever seen a movie like that when it came out. Do you think that's fair to say, a movie in which all of a sudden, we're within a play within a play, and it's got these detailed, again, like the dollhouse setup of it, which really comes into play, because it's a much more traditional movie until you are inside the school and inside the world of the play that Max Fisher is putting on. And that world suddenly feels a very great deal like a, what we will come to know as a real Wes Anderson picture.
Mike00:04:22Right. I mean, that's what I mean in many ways. Yeah, it's the first time it feels right. Correct. It's the first Wes Anderson feeling.
JVL00:04:30Wes Anderson. Yeah, so that's a great pick. I actually think that's the correct second pick with number three. I I will pick French Dispatch, which I just really, really love. Again, for reasons which are all entirely personal and I would not expect. I think if within our group, many of us might have picked French Dispatch three or four, but I would expect in a normal group of film and film watchers or not to even make the list of top ten. I just liked it that much. And for number four. So here's the problem. I only really have three Wes Anderson movies that I like. And now three, which were just picked. And so I'm going to pick Grand Budapest Hotel purely because Sonny says it's so great and I think it's OK. And so I so I am deferring my judgment to Sonny's and picking Grand Budapest Hotel because Sonny thinks it's one of the best movie of the 2010s. And so I think Sonny must be right. And so I'll just pick that. This is a weird draft pick out of last, but also is not.
Sonny00:05:35Last ism is the purest form of projection. That's what I have to say about that.
JVL00:05:39I'm just trying to accuse me.
Sonny00:05:41You accuse me of stealing your pick and then you actually steal my pick, even though we all agree that the Royal Tenenbaums is is number one.
JVL00:05:49Look, if I had another Wes Anderson movie that I truly enjoyed, I would have picked it, but I don't. And so I'm taking it not out of spite, but out of respect.
Sonny00:05:58All right. There. All right. OK.
Mike00:06:01All right. Well, there we go. So my second pick, the fifth pick overall, I am going with Isle of Dogs, which I just thought was charming and sort of unexpected. And I love I love the stop motion animation in general. I like that that Wes Anderson sort of appreciates that and and it fits in with his own sort of aesthetic. So I love dogs.
Sonny00:06:32I mean, that's that's a great pick. I, I, I enjoy the stop. That would have been your pick, right? It's a lot probably would have been my pick. Both of these picks would have been mine. My next. Yeah, I'm sorry to say that. Yeah. Yep. It's it's definitely.
JVL00:06:47It is funny that I three of us have consensus on the top. What is that six Wes Anderson movies? Top five.
Sonny00:06:54Five so far. Top five so far.
JVL00:06:56Yeah. Yeah. Five. Right. All right. That does not happen very often.
Sonny00:07:00No, it doesn't. No, no, it does not. Boy. OK, so I guess. After this, it gets like the the the obvious pick here is Bottle Rocket. And I guess I'll make it since I've got two picks in a row. Bottle Rocket is so first off, it's Martin Scorsese's favorite Wes Anderson movie, which, you know. Something has something to be said for it. The problem with Bottle Rocket is that it's one. The first third is a great little short film. And true enough, the the Bottle Rocket short was a was a submission at Sundance. It was it was a big hit. And when they tried to turn it into a feature, Sundance actually didn't take the movie. They did not take the feature length film because the the rest of the movie is not is not as good. The middle of the whole middle section drags the the the the last the last caper bit with James Caan is very good, I think. But it there is there is there is a real kind of drag in the middle of this movie. Yet that that said, two thirds of a very good movie is still pretty great. And then you get it. We get into some weird. There's a lot of idiosyncratic stuff here at the end. I guess most people would actually probably have picked Moonrise Kingdom by now. I'm not going to because I don't like that movie. Right. I just don't I don't care for it. I know a lot of people love that that picture. I does. I, I don't. Like it for a bunch of different reasons. I think that are dealing limited is a little bit underrated at this point. But people really hated that movie when it came out. I think it's but the one I'm actually going to go with here is the life aquatic, which is which is great for a couple of reasons. Among them, this is, I think, actually the the peak of the Murray songs. I think there's like there's something to be said for this as the the the best of the movies that he was making his comeback in. It's either this or lost in translation.
JVL00:09:01It's one of the two lost translation far and away.
Sonny00:09:05Well, he's he's very good, but he's he's also doing very interesting work here. And the other thing I love about this movie is the the the soundtrack, which I'm sure, you know, my ass. But it's like a bunch of it's like a bunch of Portuguese David Bowie covers.
JVL00:09:20Yeah, it was like a junior say who said
Mike00:09:23say you or say say you say say you, George, say you, George. Yeah, that's your say. I always say it was a was a. Oh, right.
JVL00:09:31Why? Yeah. For the Chargers, right? Chargers. Exactly. Say one of the sales.
Sonny00:09:39So that's my pick. That's I go with the life of water.
JVL00:09:41I got to say, I was super, super disappointed by Life Aquatic because my expectations for a bill. First of all, I was coming on the heels of Royal Tenenbaums, which I loved so much to, you know, love Rushmore, love Royal Tenenbaums even more. I was like the next Wes Anderson's got to be amazing. And then it's going to be starring Bill Murray, who in many ways is like the hidden gem of both of those two. And it's like Jacques Cousteau's like I was primed for amazing. And for me, it was just like meh. It just felt like unfulfilled promise.
Mike00:10:16Yeah, I I was going to say I really like that pick for you, Sonny, because I don't like that movie. So I'm glad you took it off as fair. So for my final pick, I'm going to take the other stop motion animation. Wow. Fantastic. Fantastic.
Sonny00:10:33Mr. Fox got a cartoon heavy one over here.
Mike00:10:36Yeah, I mean, and this is really it's because we're getting into a bunch of Wes Anderson movies that I don't really care for. I never actually saw the Darjeeling Limited. I think Life Aquatic really turned me off. I felt like I felt like as I often say I do on this show, I felt like an idiot after watching it because I was like, am I missing something? This is there something I don't get? I don't like Moonrise Kingdom as you as for many of the same reasons, Sonny. And as as listeners will know, I wasn't that thrilled with Astro City. So I'm sort of running out of options here. And and fantastic. Mr. Fox is charming in its own way. And, you know, there's something there's a there's a convergence is an interesting convergence with Roald Dahl. And Wes Anderson that I'm sort of surprised he's not done more in some ways. I'm not surprised. On the other hand, I'm surprised not done more adaptations of Roald Dahl.
Sonny00:11:35So yeah, well, no, I think I like this movie a lot. And I, I almost picked it. I, I, I just like Isle of Dogs so much more. I think Isle of Dogs is so much better. That couldn't couldn't pull the trigger. Yeah. All right. So JBL, I think for you, JBL, we are left with the Darjeeling Limited, Moonrise Kingdom and Asteroid City.
JVL00:11:57So I'm I'm actually glad that I got the last pick because I have the perfect last pick. And so it's fitting that I would be here. I choose his short American Express My Life, My Card in which which is a a commercial in which Wes Anderson is himself directing a Wes Anderson. He is the star of the commercial. He is the director of the commercial and in the commercial, he is Wes Anderson directing some other production. And it is the most self-aware that I think we've seen Wes Anderson be because he is it is almost a parody of, you know, people come to him with choices of set dressings, you know, and he has very, very fast judgments and very strong judgments. But that one, where's the boar's head? Where is it? You know, like with all of his little highly mannered thing and I love that. I think it is. I mean, there was a time when American Express did really cool auteur type ads. They were it's like a bunch of Jerry Seinfeld ads where they gave him the keys to the kingdom and just said, Do whatever you want, make us an ad. And this is my favorite of a set of cinematic ads. And I think one of my favorite expressions of Wes Anderson's understanding of himself as an auteur.
Mike00:13:19That seems like a real cop out JVL.
Sonny00:13:21What do you mean? No, it's a good pick. I like it. I like it. It's fine. I like it. I like it. It's a good pick. I think the Stella Artois ad is better, though. I did not like the Stella Artois.
JVL00:13:32Right. And that's why the Stella Artois ad feels like a precious Wes Anderson, as opposed to a knowing and winking at us, Wes Anderson, where we are not being asked to indulge him. But we're we're that is the American Express ad is him saying, Yeah, guys, I know. I know.
Sonny00:13:47You know why you like this ad is because it's the Wes Anderson version of the Michael Bay commercial where Michael Bay plays himself.
JVL00:13:54Yes. Yes. Except that in the Michael Bay commercial, I'm still not convinced that he understands that he's parodying himself. I part of me thinks that in that ad, Michael Bay is is doing a you know, it's it is true camp, which is to say that he doesn't realize that he's making camp. He thinks he's just making an awesome commercial meta.
Mike00:14:20I don't know. Meta.
Sonny00:14:23All right. So let's run through the list here. Sonny went first.
Mike00:14:27The Sonny got bombs. Yep. Bottle rocket. Yep.
Sonny00:14:30The Life Aquatic. Mike went second. He got Rushmore, Isle of Dogs, Fantastic Mr. Fox, JBL, French Dispatch, Grand Budapest Hotel and and the Amex ad that Wes Anderson did. I like that. I like. Yeah. I like all these lineups, frankly. These are all these are all good in their in their own ways.
JVL00:14:48Absolutely. I can't pick my winner here, honestly.
Sonny00:14:51I think I think what I maybe this is just true of most of his movies, but I do think that my movies have the best soundtrack. The Royal Tenenbaums, Bottle Rocket and the Life Aquatic. Maybe I've got the best score and soundtrack.
Mike00:15:04Oh, yeah, 100%. The Rushmore soundtrack is pretty great, though. I mean, I love all of that. Like, yeah, British Invasion.
Sonny00:15:12That's true. And that's a pretty good one.
Mike00:15:16What was the band that nobody the creation that does the the the song in the in the in the trailer making time? Like like nobody remembers from the sixties, but like got a revival.
JVL00:15:31Love that. Can I can I make a man? Just a quick thing that that didn't make it into the episode about Asteroid City. There is a seemingly unnecessary scene in Asteroid City in which the playwright, played by Edward Norton, meets his the actor who becomes his muse, which is Jason Schwartzman's character. And then the two become lovers, right? Jason Schwartzman is very clearly Wes Anderson's muse, and they are not lovers, but like Wes Anderson is a works progress administration program for Jason Schwartzman's career. Yes, like this is Jason Schwartzman will keep being paid so long as Wes Anderson keeps making movies in a way that like people have troops. But I don't know that I've ever seen any other auteur type director who leans on an obscure actor as much as. He does with leading parts over and over again. It's a little weird, but there's I don't think Jason Schwartzman's
Mike00:16:43all that great an actor. I mean, he's fine, but there's all kinds of very good.
JVL00:16:47I think there's all kinds of Western movies. Yeah, but there's all kinds of
Mike00:16:50crossover, right? Because isn't our Wes Anderson and like Roman Coppola friends and Schwartzman's Coppola's cousin.
Sonny00:16:57So it's like they're all kind of like, well, this this all this all gets to this all gets to the big Wes Anderson thing, which we didn't really discuss at all, which is his split from Owen Wilson in the I don't know. What is it? 2004, 2007.
JVL00:17:13Yes, as a writing partner, whenever they stop. Right.
Sonny00:17:15So they they they write together Bottle Rocket and Rushmore and the Royal Tenenbaums. And then after that, Anderson starts working more with Roman Coppola and going in a different direction that way. And it's interesting. It's really interesting to to watch the first to watch the first three of Wes Anderson's movies because they are they are they are movies that are kind of right below the surface, all deeply obsessed with class. Like Rushmore is more on the surface. That is very much a story about like a, you know, a less well-off kid trying to make it amongst the rich preppies, but like Bottle Rocket, like the whole the whole Owen Wilson's entire character is is based on like his feelings of inferiority about being around Luke Wilson's family. And then there's there's the Royal Tenenbaums. Again, Owen Wilson plays Eli Cash, who's the outsider to the you know, this kind of aristocratic New York Manhattan family, and then that that whole kind of idea of class conflict really goes away from his movies.
JVL00:18:28As do the Wilson brothers. Yep. Right.
Sonny00:18:30As do most as do the will largely the Wilson brothers. Luke Wilson in particular, like, has not really shown up in much stuff since then.
JVL00:18:40Why do you know why occasionally the Owen Wilson saw as an acting career? Why do we know why the split was?
Sonny00:18:49My the sense I don't I don't mean I don't know for sure. My sense was that Wes Anderson felt like Owen Wilson was getting too much credit. But also Owen Wilson's career blows up around this time. Remember, Owen Wilson is in like action movies. He's in behind enemy lines, like enemy lines.
JVL00:19:05Yep. Shanghai Noon.
Sonny00:19:06He's he yeah, he's he's in the Shanghai Noon movies and like he is. He has this like burgeoning action star career that kind of fizzles out. But then, you know, afterwards, Wes Anderson has like gone in his own direction, which is very much the opposite direction, which I always wondered if there was some kind of and Owen Wilson also had.
Mike00:19:27Remember, remember when he he attempted to kill himself and drug problems in 2007?
JVL00:19:31Yeah, yeah, he had a drug problem, much like Eli Cash. Yeah, I, I got to say, I, I have long believed that Owen Wilson was the leading the leading man for that moment in America, like right around post 9/11, Owen Wilson was the leading man that America needed, and we got like a good five or six years of it. And I could have taken even more. He's great in everything. Just one of my favorite screen presences. He's he's great in Starsky and Hutch. Starsky and Hutch is a disposable movie from that era. And and he's fantastic. He's great. He's great and everything. He's great in that stupid Night of the Museum movie. You know, the little tiny part he's got it and I didn't crashers great wedding crashers.
Sonny00:20:16I might go see
JVL00:20:18Haunted Haunted Mansion just just because it's got Owen Wilson.
Sonny00:20:22He's great in that stupid.
JVL00:20:25What was the Marvel thing that he was just in? Was he in Loki?
Mike00:20:29The Loki, right?
JVL00:20:30Well, it's fantastic in it. Owen Wilson can do no wrong as an actor. As far as I'm concerned, he is a Robert Downey Junior level talent.
Mike00:20:39Wow. I'm sure it's fine.
?00:20:49you
Spot something wrong in this episode? Suggest a correction →
Comments
Loading…