#173. JVLsplaining D&D to S&M
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This short bonus episode is not a movie review at all but a pure tangent: JVL spends the whole runtime "splaining" Dungeons & Dragons to a skeptical Sonny and Mike (the "S&M" of the title), walking them step by step through rolling a character — race (elves are secretly overpowered, dwarves are stout but slow), class (paladin, cleric, mage, ranger, berserker), alignment (lawful/chaotic good/evil), and gear — before getting into the role of the dungeon master, published TSR modules like Castle Ravenloft versus freestyle homebrew campaigns, and the tactile joys of owning cool dice. Sonny opens by recounting the time he and a friend got a D&D set for Christmas, immediately gave up, and went to watch The Goonies instead, and needles JVL throughout about why anyone would want to be the party's healer instead of something "cool" like a mage. Mike, professing genuine curiosity as a fellow Tolkien nerd who nonetheless never got into the game, presses JVL on why the freeform, rules-light structure appeals to anyone and asks whether he's seen Stranger Things' portrayal of D&D-playing kids (he hasn't — he doesn't watch TV), prompting Sonny to say he'd sympathize with the show's bullies. JVL frames the whole hobby as a product of being a socially unsuccessful, presports-specialization 1980s tween with time to kill, and by the end even Mike concedes he understands the appeal a bit better, closing out the episode.
From the show notes
In which JVL tries to explain the appeal of Dungeons & Dragons to two novices.
Full transcript
Mike00:00:00Welcome to the Sub-Beacon bonus episode. JVL, we're going to talk about Dungeons and Dragons and Sonny and I don't really understand the game very well. But let me say this as a way of preface, at least about my own understanding of these kinds of games. I love games. I love board games. I love complicated board games. This is like one thing my father-in-law and I really bond over is like every time I go to see him, he's got some new, you know, published in Germany or Denmark or something like complicated board game. So I'm not opposed to games, but Dungeons and Dragons. I mean, like, where's the board? What pieces do you move?
Sonny00:00:55This is this is what I did to dragons. I've told this story before on this show, but like once a friend, a friend of and I were trying, we he like got Dungeons and Dragons. He got a Dungeons and Dragons, you know, thing for Christmas. I was like, all right, yeah, let's play. This is a fun game that lots of people seem to be playing. Let's do that. And he sat down and we started like writing things on sheets and we're like, what idiotic? What are we doing? Let's go watch the Goonies. Then we went and watched the Goonies.
JVL00:01:24So I'm I'm not surprised that this doesn't appeal to you. Michael, if I can ask a personal question. Go ahead. How old were you when you first kissed a girl?
Mike00:01:37First kissed a girl. I got to go to.
Sonny00:01:39Don't have to answer that.
Mike00:01:41No, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm I'm not ashamed. I'd say probably 12.
JVL00:01:47Yeah. So this is why you never got into Dungeons and Dragons. Right. You were you were way more advanced. No, but I had so many.
Mike00:01:56I had so many nerdy things about my about my childhood and teenagehood. Like this is.
JVL00:02:01You were probably sitting there with your Fender Stratcaster just like playing the kinks waiting for the girls to come on. You pointed to one of them. You're like, hey, yeah, you Madison. Let's go up to my bedroom.
Mike00:02:15Right. It was wonderful. OK, it was wonderful.
Sonny00:02:17Fact check. I don't think girls were named Madison back then. Yeah, that's true.
Mike00:02:21That's younger than we are. No, no, no. Younger than we were named Madison. It would have been named Amanda or not. Not Madison.
JVL00:02:28Madison was so for those of us who did not have that sort of experience in the tween years, we had the theater of the mind, dungeons and dragons. And so you would get together with your buddies and you would roll a tune. That's a that's slang for create a character and drugs roll a tune that sounds like that sounds like slang for marijuana pull the plug on this bonus episode was not it was not rolling a tune was was creating yourself a character and the joys of creating a character. Oh, because when you sit down to create a new character, the world is your oyster.
Sonny00:03:15Yes, when you say you create a character. So does like everybody. In the party have to create their own character today or or is the character created by somebody else and then assign no you create your own character and creating characters of very, very important process questions are yeah God what if I want to create a paladin and you've already created a paladin we could have two paladins that are two paladins in a part.
Mike00:03:47Okay, go ahead. Two paladins in a cup. That's all. I need.
JVL00:03:50To know so we look what you do is first you pick yourself a race and the races all come with pluses and minuses right if you choose dwarf you were going to get a little bit of extra dexterity but you're going to lose some speed right that's them and if you choose if you choose a human you're really sort of you know kind of average at everything which is not bad but a little boring you could be an elf you could be. Well I like the elves you know what I mean yeah because the elves had lots of extra dexterity and a little bit of extra wisdom good constitution and charisma with the elves if you ask me we're overpowered as a race but then once you have that you pick your class what are the drawbacks of being an elf why wouldn't I think strength I think because I think elves elves are a little light on the strength and the truth is what everybody wants is strength right yeah whatever he wants. So then you pick your class right what are you going to be are you going to be a thief or an assassin are you going to be a mage or a druid or a paladin or a ranger or a warrior or a berserker and the world is your a cleric could be a cleric if you want and this is important because once you pick your class you start again you get a bunch of ups and downs right plus plus whatever intelligence or whatever. Or minus whatever and wisdom wisdom and intelligence are two separate separate classes right and what is your constitution like is your constitution a hardy or what and so you you put this all out and you have to understand that different classes have to wipe that look off your face Michael Warren hold on hold on a question so I can be an elf thief I can be a human berserker I can be a dwarf paladin. That doesn't even make any how could how could a dwarf they're so small and grimy be a paladin you could do it okay okay I just want to make sure I understood that all of these types were they're all available to you every race could have that okay so races are better at certain classes right so you could right you know like the elves are better Rangers got it because because of how like their little their little elf feet are yeah they dance over the snow I've seen I've seen. So so you have all that and you understand the different characters are going to have different roles within a party right somebody will be your tank the tank is a person who goes and like gives and takes a lot of damage you're going to have your your ranged damage dealers who are people who can inflict lots and lots of damage but they need to stay at a distance because they're kind of weak that's what your your wizards will be and then you'll have healers right this is the weird thing is are the healer is always the class where. They can restore hit points to people and add buffs so you you cast a spell which will increase your whole party's dexterity for five turns and that's really critical to a party but you kind of feel like the biggest fucking loser like yeah. My priest just cast a spell to raise your dexterity oh wait this is what makes people feel like a fucking loser while they're playing.
Mike00:07:19You're feeling like you're the biggest loser at the Dungeons and Dragons party imagine you're you go to Dungeons and Dragons you're like I want to be something cool like a mage you're a cleric you're a healer hold on hold on hold on hold on I've got a question question question yeah you've just described creating a character you haven't actually described what these characters actually do although you've been describing what they can do we're not done yet okay hold on there.
JVL00:07:49Okay okay slowly my role slowly my role so the next thing you do is you have to roll for your character so you're rolling for your character attributes and so as you're creating the character depending on what race and class you have chosen when you go through your 12 basic character attributes which I don't make me remember them but it's like constitution wisdom intelligence dexterity charisma speed. I forget there's like a couple more that but then depending on you look at the little chart and if you're an elf druid then you will roll like one d20 which means a single roll on a 20 sided die and that if you roll an 18 that means all my intelligence is 18 and you might then get a three d6 for three rolls on a six sided die to add up. And that's and that's what my charisma will be and I do have to tell you in all honesty a lot of times when I was a kid I'd cheat what you're right here and I would be I'd be rolling up a tune and if I got a really bad roll then I'd be like oh let's toss that one aside I think I can do a mulligan on my wisdom score here I can't believe I know I know and really what that does is it cheapens it cheapens the the game the cheapens the sport which the game does actually get played at some point right I mean that's I mean sure but the the I mean we're talking about we're talking about like two hours of prep here oh I love it because the prep is the best part it's like organizing your comic book collection it's even better than reading them right sorting through your comic books and filing them away is even better than reading the oh yeah the pieces of the puzzle are coming together here okay so the next thing you have to do is you have to discover you have to figure out your alignment and so you have to understand so what what sort of character is this person going to be is this person going to be good or evil or neutral and further will this person be chaotic or lawful and so for instance this is where the grid comes this is where the meme the meme comes from like the chaotic evil versus lawful evil I think so Sonny this is this is as permeable permeated into broader internet culture this part of Dungeons and Dragons yes don't look at me like that JBL I just assumed it was like a sociology term like I this is like uh you know something from social 101 that that I spaced out on next you have a set of character attribute points which you can spend and so uh for instance you start out with a certain number of gold and you can then go through and figure out how am I going to equip my character am I going to buy uh stud leather armor or am I going to go chain mail and depending on what you what you wear for armor that can increase your speed or decrease your dexterity give you and and how many hit points are and if I'm if I'm a wizard I'm allowed to choose five spells from the first level from level one spells as my and then then after you have have just tugged it and tugged it
Sonny00:11:17until it's raw you've got yourself a great character then you're finally ready to play D&D well I have a I have a question to go over to George Wentz's basement so I have a question about the all right so you mentioned spells there's five spells that the wizards I don't want to I don't want to know what the spells were I don't care but where do the spells come from well you have your books now
JVL00:11:47nobody can play Dungeons and Dragons without purchasing from TSR and Gary Gygax incorporated the essential books which are you you need the the player's manual and you need the monster manual the monster man there were essentially like six books you had to buy and the dungeon master needed to have a dungeon master's manual and these things had all of the information that you could possibly need for the game they had they had the creatures you would find and what it was is again it's presenting an entire all of the brick and mortar for building a world and this is what it what you finally get to is when you go to play Dungeons and Dragons find you you settle down there when you go to play Dungeons and Dragons and Chris we're Chauvin's mom brings you down like cans of coke which is amazing to have while you're with your Cheetos and you can't imagine why Suzanne Hinsky doesn't like you back and you know like and you're down there playing it and so so Mike McIntosh is your dungeon master and he sits there and you can do two ways you could do freestyle where your dungeon master is essentially the master tour storyteller who is created spinning you you walk into a dark cave and then it's got to figure out what you're gonna do and you know when the dungeon master knows that there is gonna be I don't
Sonny00:13:11know the the a fat dragon so this is so this is this is my big question this is the thing I've never understood about about Dungeons and Dragons right you have this guy who is the dungeon master he's the he's the head of the game basically he's like god of this game master that's right he's god of this world and this person can do basically anything they want yeah and oftentimes
JVL00:13:38that's not a game that's not a game takes your crew takes takes turns being dungeon masters right so you get together every Saturday and you know drew walk oh we'll be dungeon master one one week and Mike McIntosh is a dungeon master another now Haru self master the other week so
Sonny00:13:56they're not like following it's not they don't get the dungeon master journal book and then just follow what happens in that they're making it up as they go
JVL00:14:06well that is the freestyle version now and there were modules so you could also buy modules which were essentially pre packaged adventures and which point the dungeon master is really just guiding you through it because Gary Gygax and TSR incorporated have created Castle Ravenstein I think Raven Castle Ravenstein I think was it or Ravenloft Castle Ravenloft now maybe it was Castle Ravenloft which was our favorite and then so then the adventure is all right there the dungeon master sort of just guiding you through and said well you know there are three vampires here what are you gonna do they attack for roll to see who attacks first and everybody gets out their gem dice
Sonny00:14:46do you guys do you guys bring your own dice is is it like a is it like a chef with his own set of knives you roll in yeah you're like and and are there
JVL00:14:57cooler dice than other dice and do you look down on the people who have like the lame cheap dice of course it's like in your own pogs to the game yeah did you have a lot of slammer dice that's what I would have had did you was it amazing when somebody got the hundred-sided die and you guys couldn't believe how big it was
Sonny00:15:16that's not even a lot hundred yeah yeah sure is what if you have a hundred-sided dice why don't you just roll that all the time for I want a hundred different rolls
JVL00:15:26because because different things get different roll rates you have the four-sided die obviously which is a pyramid then the six eight twelve there might have been a 12 the 20 the 20 is the right the granddaddy of them all and then maybe it was a 50-sided die not a hundred it's probably a 50 so die so so JBL give you and I haven't played in like three or four years so so take this
Mike00:15:59question in the spirit with which it's intended which is a spirit of inquiry a spirit of 19 ignorance girl no no no kidding I'm kidding a spirit of genuinely wanting to know what this is about what is fun about Dungeons and Dragons I mean for a
JVL00:16:23certain type of tween who doesn't have any hope of getting up Sharon Hinsky's shirt mm-hmm second time Dungeons Dungeons and Dragons is like a thing you can do with your buddies who also can't get up like Suzanne gel shirt and you can have fun without going to the mall I think you can do wins without going to the mall and it it merges like the collectors impulse yeah because they're all sorts of like collecting on the collectors impulse you know oh I could get a good you've I'm putting my character sheet I'm finally it with all my other character sheets along with the cool just like all the fantasy stuff was cool once right time right swords and I got a plus six ice sword ah plus six I saw that's so cool
Sonny00:17:15I've got the halberd of fire right I'm gonna have to stop you that was never true never never the case never cool ever yeah I guess that's not even before I was born I refused to believe it no I don't think it was ever cool but but the
Mike00:17:31thing is is like I like I am I'm very big into the what I think was the source of Dutch the Dragons right or or inspiration right which was Tolkien right yeah talking it's like this is like that they they sort of took talking and create and I love I love talking I'm deeply into the books and the camera and yet Dungeons and Dragons holds no appeal to me and not not for the not for the sort of reasons that you suggest at the beginning but just the the complexity of it or the the sort of self-guided I can just make whatever the story is like it doesn't have constrictions that make games with rules where you get you can't do that you got to do this it seems too freeform to be any fun but maybe I'm sure I play game to a certain
JVL00:18:25kind of person who needs the guideline who needs line yes color within the lines that's me who is on me who is for the certain type person who is terrified of being confronted with a blank page I can understand that but the you know
Mike00:18:41having and again you know because we would keep
JVL00:18:45track of all this shit right you know how many gold pieces did we well last week when we played we finished level three of castle Ravens I'll have to go and look up what the actual module was please do we love that but you know like oh so we found a treasure chest with 1600 gold pieces in it we split it between the four of us each of four and so you'd pull out your your players manual and look through and see like well what could I buy for 400 gold pieces and you feel like oh I could upgrade my I could throw on a chainmail chainmail helm over my head which provide me to two extra defensive points right or so and it's just awesome like you know I'm gonna buy cool magic shit and talk about girls and eat Cheetos and then wait until it was sleepover time and maybe maybe though one of the naughty beach house things would be on Showtime at 11 o'clock all right
Mike00:19:44then well hey quick question here JVL before we wrap things up have you ever heard of dungeon the game no dungeon with an exclamation point so this is apparently a rep so when I brought all of this up to to my wife she said I don't know anything about Dungeons & Dragons but that her dad played a game called dungeon which was like a partial spin-off of Dungeons & Dragons but it had a board and it had a tower in the middle of the board that would spin and this is like it was like published in like 1975 or something like there by 1978 or something a few years after the first Dungeons & Dragons and it is like so I thought it was something you may have heard of it had sort of this like actual spinning carousel style thing so but but you're you're unfamiliar you're not into the board the board game specific I did a lot of board
Sonny00:20:44games that not not that yeah I guess you're I guess like Final Fantasy comes out five years too late for you then at this point like Final Fantasy 1 you know yeah for the NES I never I actually it's funny I never played the RPGs until like I was done with high school there was a there was a weird there was a weird craze for the for the early Final Fantasy games amongst my my friends like in in 99 to the extent that we were like literally going to the GameStop and like trying to track down copies of Final Fantasy 3 on Super Nintendo can I throw
JVL00:21:25another another thing that I think is part of all this is when I was doing this it was a time before organized sports so you know like nobody at age 12 nobody was on a travel team for anything like that that whole world didn't exist people were not becoming sub-specialized and doing year-round baseball at age 10 like that literally was you know like we had time on our hands to do stuff like go to the mall and you know or play D&D together and yeah and we didn't have sports sort of coaching us up and you know what we all eventually left for was because we hit middle school where in middle school there were sports teams which is for the first time right nobody when you're like you know sixth grade there's no sports team for you to join in sixth grade that that doesn't exist back then right uh and by the time like you know you could convince Tina Fuco to like you know go upstairs and and snoodle you know canoodle a little bit uh and you had a you had a sports team to be on because you had a and
Mike00:22:43then we stopped playing dnd i see do you think that stranger things presented the game and and it's and it's ever seen it never seen ever seen it okay i don't watch television it looks like a lot of fun on the show i have to say um that these that these little prepubescent nerds are having um
Sonny00:23:02no it doesn't it looks dumb it looks i it looks i would i would empathize so much with the bullies
Mike00:23:08on that show like fucking losers i'm trying to throw jv yellow bone here and hey hey listen jvl thank you for explaining that i do feel like i understand a lot more the appeal of this game um but that is all the time we're giving to this bonus episode thank you so much for listening subbeacon.com subscribe listen comment and uh we'll see you next time
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