#166. Creed 3
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With Sonny out this week (he's back next episode), JVL and Mike Warren dig deep into Creed 3, Michael B. Jordan's directorial debut and the second sequel to Creed, itself a Rocky spinoff, following Adonis Creed as a retired champion confronted by Dame (Jonathan Majors), the childhood friend who took an 18-year prison sentence for a weapons charge that was really Adonis's fault and now wants his own shot at the title. Mike gives a warm but qualified verdict — he likes the movie, especially Jordan's assured direction and the stylized, near-monochrome Dodger Stadium finale that strips away the crowd and turns the last rounds into an almost Sin City-style psychological duel — without quite loving it. JVL, who also didn't hate it, spends much of the episode arguing the film is fundamentally confused: by his reading of the plot mechanics, Dame is actually the story's hero and Adonis its villain, and the script only papers over this by having Majors play Dame with cartoonish, Kang-the-Conqueror-esque menace and by having Dame absolve Adonis in a saccharine post-fight reconciliation. JVL praises the film's real ambition — it's the first Rocky-adjacent movie to grapple honestly with boxing as a fixed, transactional business — and uses a beloved 2014 Deadspin piece by ex-promoter Charles Farrell as a launching pad for a long, delighted digression into boxing's history of fixed fights, from the Buster Douglas upset of Mike Tyson to Vinny Vecchione's suspiciously well-timed Peter McNeely fight to Floyd Mayweather's shameless, lucrative circus with Conor McGregor and the Jake Paul influencer-boxing racket. Both hosts agree Michael B. Jordan is a legitimate movie star (JVL wishes Marvel had somehow resurrected him as Black Panther) while remaining unconvinced Jonathan Majors has the range to be one. The first third of the episode is given over to the hosts' kids' spring sports: Mike recounts his oldest son's Little League draft and a coach-pitch third-base memory of a tiny girl scolding him with "I'm doing the best that I can," while JVL brags about his son Flash hitting 90 mph on the radar gun and describes his own new gig assistant-coaching middle-school track. They close with a happy tangent on Everything Everywhere All at Once sweeping the Oscars, with Mike an unreserved fan and JVL "ecstatic" for the film's success as a statement that big, ambitious original movies can still work, even though he personally didn't love it as much as he loved Top Gun: Maverick.
From the show notes
JVL and Mike go loooooooong on Creed 3. The villain is actually the hero! It's actually a heist movie! It's the first Rocky movie to deal with the essential nature of boxing—which is that most matches are fixed! Read this 2014 Deadspin piece as homework before you listen.
Full transcript
JVL00:00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Sub-Beacon! I'm JVL here with Mike Warren, Sonny Bunch, out this week. He'll be back next week, though. Not a big deal. Michael, I am going to force you to save the minivan story for the bonus show.
Mike00:00:22Okay.
JVL00:00:22Sorry, you can't give that here. I can't wait to hear it. What else has been going on with you, buddy?
Mike00:00:30Oh, you know, we've transitioned out of basketball season, youth basketball, and we're getting ready to start youth baseball season once again. And so that's very exciting. We've got my oldest, my eight-year-old, is moving up to the next level, moving up to the kid pitch level this spring. At eight years old, they have the kids pitch? It starts here. So this is definitely developmental. The coach made that very clear. You know, this is not going to be a, you know, the goal here is to make sure everybody gets to play. Everybody gets used to kid pitch. Anybody who wants to pitch can give it a try. Yeah. And we have a great little league here, and it's just been terrific to see him go through each level. And then he's been recruited on to the same coach that he had in the fall season. With. Several of the other kids from that team.
JVL00:01:32So do they, do they have the kids try out and then do a draft?
Mike00:01:36Oh yeah. There's a draft.
JVL00:01:37Is that what they do? Yeah. There's a draft.
Mike00:01:39So that was the first, that was, this was the first time there was a draft for this level, the AA level and up. And so he was a bit nervous about it. It was several weeks ago. And, you know, frankly, I was more nervous than he, than he was because.
JVL00:01:54How did he do at the combine?
Mike00:01:56He did great.
JVL00:01:57Yeah.
Mike00:01:57His pro day was good. It was, it was, it was. He did a good pro day. He, you know what? He handled the media well too, you know? So that was, I think. It's very important.
JVL00:02:04You got to show them that, you know, how to handle things off the field as well. It's what a lot of franchises are looking for in their young stars.
Mike00:02:11Exactly. And we, we, we've all seen Boulder and we know how, how it's supposed to go. And then.
JVL00:02:16Try to help the team take one game at a time.
Mike00:02:20That's a movie worth revisiting. I feel like. So, and then the other one, the middle one is doing his second season of T-Ball. And I'm going to assistant coach that team. Cause that's about the level that my skills as an assistant, not even a coach, as an assistant coach, I sort of top out at T-Ball. So we'll see how that goes. He's a little less enthused about T-Ball. He doesn't, you know, it's like every other day he says he doesn't want to play and then he does want to play. So, you know, but it's that feeling JVL, you know it well, where like the seasons are kind of on the cusp of changing and you just, you know, pitchers are going to be reporting soon and you just feel like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's springtime again. And I'm, I'm really excited about it.
JVL00:03:08Flash just reported for this, this Monday, this past Monday was pitchers and catchers report for his, uh, high school varsity team.
Mike00:03:16Look at that.
JVL00:03:17And so he's had his first high school practices. Uh, now of course for him, the season never really stopped. Like he took, uh, he took November and December off. I made him take a summer. Off as well. Cause I wanted him to rest his arm, uh, because he played a lot during the fall, but he's been working, you know, he's been working out since new year's, you know, five days a week, uh, at the other baseball facility. And, uh, I don't think I told you guys he broke 90 for the first time.
Mike00:03:46Holy. Did I tell you this? No. Yeah.
JVL00:03:48A couple of weeks ago, he broke 90, uh, on the running gun, which, uh, which is not from the mound from the mound. Now he sort of sits between 80 and 83. Okay. Uh, and it's terrifying just like watching him face. Cause what, what his facility has been doing is they've had the kids there doing live at bats for the last month so that when they roll into the season, all the kids who work out in this place have been doing, you know, live with umpires, you know, against pitchers who are being competitive. It's not just like batting practice and stuff like that with full counts to the real thing counts. Yeah. As close as you can, without having to worry about like picking off runners at first. And stuff. Right. Uh, so yeah, it's terrifying watching him pitch to these kids and it is interesting watching him now encounter next level talent. So like two of the kids at his facility who he pitches against are seniors who are committed to division one programs. And, uh, and so, you know, he's a 14 year old pitching against these guys and he, you know, one of them is clearly a pro player.
Mike00:04:59JVL you've, you've stopped short. You've frozen. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's okay. For the last 15 seconds. Yeah. Uh, yeah, you just, uh, you were saying he was just fitting next level, you know, seeing next level talent and then you kind of froze or maybe I froze.
JVL00:05:18So, yeah, so he's seeing next level talent for the first time as a pitcher and, uh, two of the kids he's, he's has to face, you know, when he does live at bats now are seniors who are committed to division one programs. One of whom is clearly good enough to be drafted next year. If he had wanted, if he'd wanted to go pro, he could have gone, but instead he's going to UVA, which is a, an elite baseball program. Absolutely. Uh, and it's funny watching 14 year old flash pitch against these kids because he's, you know, it's funny. He's not intimidated. He goes and he, he just, he throws tight inside against them and, you know, tries to throw to the back foot and. Uh, they, he can't overpower them. And those, those two, the two division one guys still, when he gives them anything to hit, they'll mash him. But, uh, but he's getting used to that already, which is bizarre.
Mike00:06:14Right. Getting, getting used to that sort of working the batter or, okay, what, what is he going to, what, what is a ball he's going to hit next? Probably, you know, just works out these like different kinds of mental muscles that, that he hasn't worked out before.
JVL00:06:28And figuring out, you know, like getting to a place where, you know, he can still overpower most high school batters. I think, uh, you know, your, your median high school varsity player, he can overpower even at 14. Uh, but there are going to be guys who, if he plays at the next level, you know, he's going to catch up to, but breaking 90 is a big deal because if you can do it on the running gun, then you can do it off the mound. And, uh, he is likely to, the, the coach thinks that he'll probably break 90 from the mound by next spring. And so he can be a sophomore throwing, throwing 90.
Mike00:07:04Uh, are you worried about, are you worried about his, the development in, in his muscles? And I mean, this is what, this is what like people like John Smoltz say is, you know, by throwing too hard, too often, too young, that's why you've got so many more Tommy John surgeries at age 20, um, 19, even younger, I do worry about it.
JVL00:07:24Um, we try to do a lot of managing and how much he throws. Right. Especially because he, he throws so hard. Uh, and you know, I would say three quarters of the work he spends is, is on all of the strength and flexibility stuff, not actually, you know, he spends way more time on all the stuff designed to take care of the arm and to do arm care than he does on the actual, like even mechanics, but there is this
Mike00:07:52generation, which, which, which flashes sort of, uh, too young for, which was really did not appreciate and did not really understand what was happening as you were like getting harder and faster pitchers at these younger ages. And it's, you know, there's like this, almost this kind of, uh, uh, donut generation of pitchers who are not pitching as long as they could have. And they could have an early area. Of course they have this power that, you know, coming out of college or even just coming up out of, out of the draft from high school. That pitchers, you know, 10 years earlier wouldn't dream of that early. So, I mean, you know, it's a trade-off, but you know, you kind of think about longevity more than, um, you know, if you're going to the majors, you want to be there for the long haul, not, not for a short burst and you're in surgery.
JVL00:08:46You know, look hard-throwing right-handers for a dime a dozen. There is, you know, I, I think there's a very good chance that flash could wind up playing professionally, but that doesn't mean the majors, right. You know, I think there's a good, there's a good chance he's going to play division one, uh, and depending on his velocity, then there's a good chance he could get drafted. But after that, it's a crapshoot. I mean, you know, nobody knows how right-hand pitchers develop and, you know, whether they wind, they take forever to develop, you know, pitchers take way more time to develop than, than position players. And, you know, the vast majority of them never play past double a and, uh, anyway, um, but what I'm sad about is that I don't get to coach anymore. I envy you getting to, uh, getting to coach the boys. So when you, when you're assistant coaching, do you prefer to play the third base coach, the first base coach, or to be the dugout coach? Because you always need three, right?
Mike00:09:41Yeah. Although, you know, at, at the level that my boys have played at the dugout coach is more, it is often filled by a non-coaching.
JVL00:09:51Stop picking your nose. Yeah.
Mike00:09:53Hey guys, hey guys, put the bats down, you know? Um, you know, Hey, Hey, you're up next, you're up next. Yeah. Hey, when you're in the hole, it means you need to have your helmet on and have your bat ready to go. If you're not in the hole, you know, that kind of it's, it's just directing traffic, child management. Exactly. Um, so I prefer, I prefer third base coach, um, in, on the, you don't see the kids as often as you do at first base. Um, oh, you will during coach pitch.
JVL00:10:22It's going to be a lot of walks. Oh yes.
Mike00:10:25Oh yes. In coach pitch you do in, but it certainly. In T-ball, um, but even, you know, in, in like machine pitch, which was the level that, that, uh, you know, before kid pitch, um, you know, you don't see them a lot, but when you do, it's really exciting and you get to have this kind of extra conversation with the kids about, um, you know, about strategy and thinking that's sort of different.
JVL00:10:47Brandon, get on the damn bag. Stay on the bag. Stay on the bag.
Mike00:10:51No, I mean, I have this, this is great. I have this great memory. Uh, it was, uh. It was, um, and I want, I can't remember which kids team it was. I think it was the middle ones and they had this, and the reason I'm getting confused is because they were sisters. One on, uh, the older ones team, one of the younger ones team. I think this was the younger one and just the cutest little girl. Um, I don't even know how she like picked up the bat. She was so, so small, so tiny and so adorable. And, uh, you know, what we're working on is stay on the bag. Don't stay on the bag. Um, when you get, when you, when you get to third base, don't run off the bag because they can tag you out. Now, now that assumes that the, that the other team has the wherewithal to even know where the ball and the runner are at, at that given time. But, you know, but so we've been working on that. So, you know, you know what? It was the older ones team. Cause it was anyway, but regardless, so I'm waving them in and I'm going, stay on the bag, you know, get down, stay on the bag. And you know, that way that coaches talk. You know, Hey, Hey, don't forget to stay on the bag. You're kind of, you're not quite yelling at them, uh, but you're not, you know, having a nice chit chat and you know, and so one boy after another comes through and, and they just kind of take it or whatever. And this adorable girl who was really good, uh, but she starts running and she, and she runs through the bag on third base. And so I just said in the same cadence that I've been talking through the whole game, I said, you know, you gotta stay on the bag. And she looked up at me. No, no, no, no, no, no. She didn't cry, but she looked up at me with this kind of like annoyed, uh, uh, but also kind of sad look. And she goes, I'm doing the best that I can. And I said, I said, sweetie, sweetie, you're doing fine. I just, I did just, you know, and I, I was reduced to nothing, you know, I couldn't say anything, but it was so adorable. And she, you know, she walked off fine, but she, it was, she was the only one who like, you know, sort of felt like offended enough. To look at me and be like, uh, you know, Hey buddy, you know, don't talk to me that way. I'm doing the best that I can out here. Uh, so it was really, I love that though. I love that, that kind of conversation you have on third base.
JVL00:13:10Now eight year old, they don't let you steal home yet. Right.
Mike00:13:15Um, there are no steals. Oh, no steals at all yet. Okay. So you don't, don't get it. Okay.
JVL00:13:20Yes. So you're getting close to the age where if you're coaching third base and I assume that as your boys progress, you too will progress as a coach. So by the time you're at like 10 or 11 years old, I expect you to be assisting coaching then as well, Michael. Oh boy. Oh boy. And then the third base coach gets to not only choose whether or not to send the runner from third, which there are a lot of path balls. And so that becomes a real crucial, really crucial, uh, decision, right? Cause you got to know your kid. You got to coach them into getting enough of a lead and some leagues will have like, you can't take a lead from third. You can't move off the bag until the ball has crossed home plate or et cetera, et cetera. But also you then start giving the signs to both the first, the kid or the runner on first and the batter. So you'll give them the take sign or the bunt sign or the swing, you know, green light swing or steel second or fake steel hit and run. And you'll be, you know, touching the belt, pulling the brim of your hat, licking your fingers. And all that stuff.
Mike00:14:27I'm liking the sound of this. That is, that's a lot of responsibility.
JVL00:14:31I almost always coach first base because it was less responsibility than being the third base coach. First base, you're more just like, you know, coaching basically the lead off of first.
Mike00:14:42That's right.
JVL00:14:43And you're, you know, a little more, a little more, a little more back, back, back, back, back. Right. When the pitcher is making a move to you.
Mike00:14:49You do, you do have to make that judgment. And this is depends on how, you know, what level they're at. You know, those, you know, that, that judgment between, is this going to be a single or a double, um, rests partly on your shoulders. And that's, that's a little, that's a little, that's a lot of pressure, you know? So it's funny.
JVL00:15:07It's tough out there for us. There, there are two types of kids. There are kids who will always try to stretch into a double left into their own devices because that's just how they think about life. And there are kids who, no matter where they hit the ball are just going to run through first base and, you know, take a single, no matter what, no of them, they aren't going to go for second. Yeah. And they're very different personality types.
Mike00:15:31It's like you can tell almost everything you, you can about, about a player just by that, that, that, that heuristic. So that's really funny.
JVL00:15:42That's great. I'm glad you guys have a little league baseball to look forward to, man.
Mike00:15:47Yeah.
JVL00:15:47I have spring track to look forward to because we are, I am assistant coaching spring track, which is going to be, uh, fun. And excited. I, you know, I never, never occurred to me that they would have sports like this for kids starting in third grade. So like third through eighth, it's a spring track team with javelin and long jump and shot put. And it's like a, you know, like there are no hurdles, there are no relays. I think the, the track events are like 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600. So there's no two mile, there's no, you know, intermediate hurdles or hurdles or anything like that, but it's, uh, it's going to be fun.
Mike00:16:30Are there seasons of, uh, is there a whole season of events or is it just one event?
JVL00:16:36No whole season of events and, uh, I guess I should say meets the meats, the meat. So I was met with the coaches cause this is my first year here. Cause we, we just moved here and, uh, at the coaches meeting, we made a decision to avoid the big end of the season meet and to go for a small or end of the season meet because at the last year's end of the season, meat had so many kids in so many teams there that it was nine hours long.
Mike00:17:09It's like the worst swim meet.
JVL00:17:13Everybody wanted to kill themselves.
Mike00:17:17You have to turn the lights on at that point, right?
JVL00:17:19I mean, I don't even, I don't even, so it was like a Saturday. It was nine hours. People were. They were out of their gourds. Uh, and we thought, you know what these, uh, these kids will be just had just fine going to an end of the season meet with seven teams instead of 20 teams.
Mike00:17:36That's right.
JVL00:17:36Uh, it'll be two hours, a brisk two hours, and then we'll just get right back to it.
Mike00:17:41Uh, well, that's interesting.
JVL00:17:41All right. So, uh, let's talk about creed three. We, uh, you and Sonny did, um, rocky four while I was away and it was a really interesting show because I realized that I myself have not watched rocky four start to finish in 20 years. Now I've watched many pieces of rocky four over the last 20 years. And once upon a time, I watched the whole thing start to finish a few different times, uh, and it never occurred to me as you, you guys said that it was just a montage, uh, with like 60 minutes of movie around it, uh, that was very, very smart. So creed three, uh, do you want to do a big boy review? Would you be comfortable doing a big boy review for creed three?
Mike00:18:26I'm doing it off the cuff here. So let's see if we can, if, if you can have this humble, just, you know, upstart co-host do a big boy review, but here we go. Uh, creed three is the directorial debut of its star, Michael B. Jordan, a, uh, second sequel to creed, which is itself a spinoff of the rocky franchise. Uh, this, uh, movie follows Adonis creed, uh, the son, I guess the illegitimate son. Of, uh, of, uh, Apollo creed from the rocky franchise. Uh, and, uh, Adonis is gone through, you know, he has adopted his father's last name. He has, uh, when the movie begins, the movie actually begins with a couple flashbacks, uh, right. It begins with sort of Adonis creed Adonis creeds, you know, uh, youthful, uh, exposure to boxing, uh, as a like 15 year old in, in, uh, in urban Los Angeles, uh, jumps ahead from an event there, uh, to him winning the heavyweight championship. And then jumps to five years from there to the present day, uh, where Adonis is retired from boxing. He is living in the Hollywood Hills, uh, really living the good life. He's married to Tessa Thompson. Who's I guess like, uh, I haven't seen creed two, so I can't remember all the characters and who was in what, but Tessa Thompson is uh, like a mu, uh, mu music producer, a former artist. They have a deaf daughter, uh, who, uh, that the, the sort of, uh, communication through ASL is a prominent part of the movie, but essentially what you have is an Adonis Creed who is living, uh, uh, the, the high life as a retired boxer, uh, running, you know, sort of his own, uh, his own, uh, gym. Uh, and he's sort of, uh, living off. Of, uh, the, the legend, not only of his own legend, but that of his fathers, uh, when who comes through the door, uh, but an old friend from the city. We actually saw him in the initial flashback, uh, the guy who was supposed to be Dame, right Dame was supposed to be, uh, the, uh, star, the champ, uh,
JVL00:20:46a few years, golden gloves, champ of the golden gloves, champs Angeles to whom
Mike00:20:51Adonis Creed, little Donnie was basically the prototype. Um, we, we find out that, uh, he was sent away, uh, to jail Dame was, uh, and has been in jail for the past, nearly two decades and returns, uh, to this moment in the present day, uh, and, uh, they sort of catch up and it becomes clear to Adonis that Dame wants to, uh, uh, have another shot at the championship, which is, uh, of course held by one of the boxers that's in Adonis. Uh, Adonis Creed's own sort of organization, uh, that he himself is managing or promoting. So, uh, the, the movie is a lot about this kind of back and forth relationship between these two guys, uh, Dame, who is somebody who we, we come to find out. Really blames, uh, not just Adonis, but kind of, uh, his, you know, uh, everything in his past for not giving him the chance at the championship. He wants this. He wants to challenge. Uh, uh, uh, Adonis is champion, uh, for the world championship, uh, and then things take a turn and eventually it's, uh, it's, it's Dame who comes back as an old man, practically as the champ and of course, Adonis Creed, uh, has to save face, has to save, um, a whole lot, uh, and take on Dame himself, uh, in a, uh, in a fight that, that, that ends the movie. So, I mean, it's a movie that, that follows. The basic beats of these Rocky and Creed movies, you know, you've got kind of a challenge and some ups and downs and you've got, uh, sort of a montage. Um, I do get a montage and, um, and then, you know, again, culminating at the end with a big major, uh, uh, you know, well choreographed boxing match. So that's, that's sort of what happens. That's a plot summary of the movie. It's really a movie I think about, um, and I'm. Interested to hear your thoughts about what this movie is about. Cause I think it, it JBL it's, it's about more than simply, um, than, than some of the more simple Rocky sequels or about this is about, um, you know, dealing with your past, uh, trying to, uh, grapple with where your lot is in life at the moment and trying to make the best of it. Um, there's a lot going on in this movie. I really liked a lot of the performances, uh, particularly Michael. B Jordan, and not just in front of the camera. I thought, I thought Jordan's direction here, um, for a first time director, uh, was excellent, there were some real cinematic shots, uh, some really interesting turn, uh, and we can talk about it, uh, in the final match that, that I sort of like shocked me a little bit, I was not expecting to see this kind of, uh, artistic, uh, interpretation of, uh, of a boxing match in a Rocky slash Creed movie, but, um, yeah. You know, great performances all around. Um, oh, again, a little cookie cutter is what we expect from these movies, but, uh, I, I think a pretty decent, uh, entry into the franchise. And, um, I don't know, I, I, I liked it. I, I didn't love it, but I certainly didn't hate it. JVL. What do you think?
JVL00:24:15I, uh, you know, there are things I liked about it, but I didn't like it. I didn't hate it either. Um, let's talk about the. Let's talk about the directing part of it first. So the, the showiest part of the movie as from a director standpoint is in the, the fight at the end, which culminates in Dame versus Adonis, it takes place at Dodger stadium and the first, the first two rounds, I believe are shot in a very traditional sort of boxing sense. Uh, like you're watching on showtime. Like you're watching on showtown, but then from the third round, to the end, it is almost like sin city where, uh, the background becomes, it, it delves into almost black and white. The color palette gets washed out. And instead of being in a realistic Dodger stadium, we are in a abstracted and empty Dodger stadium as if Dodger stadium is the computer generated backdrop, uh, because we are focusing only on these two. All the crowd noise goes away, uh, and we are focused entirely on the two fighters who are focused entirely on each other, uh, and I, I don't know. Was that, did that work for you or was it a little too on the nose?
Mike00:25:38Uh, maybe I'm grading on a curve here because, uh, it worked for me mostly because I wasn't expecting it. Um, you know, you don't expect that kind of, uh, you know, zigzag from these movies. So I, I, I liked it. Um, it worked for me, even though I, I, you could even sort of see, uh, you could see the work being done, if that makes sense, you could sort of see as a, as a, as a director, Michael B. Jordan, kind of wanting to have, and put his mark on this franchise and say, see, look, I did something different. Um, but, but I, I, I enjoyed it and I thought it really serviced the story a lot, which is, this ultimately became a sort of mental, uh, battle between these two old friends who, who are now essentially, uh, trying to kill each other. It, it worked for me. Maybe it didn't work for you.
JVL00:26:29It, uh, it was fine. I mean, there were things I liked about it and things, things that I, I didn't. The, uh, so here's, here's my, my largest, so I have two, two criticisms of the movie, one because of something they did and one because of something they didn't quite do enough of, uh, so I, I think the story is fundamentally flawed because the character of Dame is actually the hero of the story and Adonis is actually the villain. So here, here is their relationship. We meet them as they are young boy, teenage boys. Uh, Dame seems to be about 16 or 17, uh, probably 17. Adonis is probably like 14 and Adonis is, uh, Dame's ring man, corner man. So they, you know, they go off to a, a golden gloves match and he carries Dame's bags for him, et cetera, et cetera. After the, the fight, they stop at a store and Adonis is going to get something. He bumps into a grown man. He recognizes this man, the man does not recognize him and Adonis snaps and starts beating the living shit out of him. Right. Uh, this adult man's buddies then jump onto Adonis and Dame bails out of his car and comes around and pulls a gun on them to try to get them off of a Adonis right as the police show up.
Mike00:27:55Right.
JVL00:27:56The police arrest Dame for her, for weapons charge. Turns out he's got a bunch of priors as a juvie Adonis runs and so doesn't get pinched and Dame does not roll on him. Dame just takes his medicine and gets put away for 18 years and he then comes out and he has the entire time kept a flame alive for his dream to become the champ heavyweight. Champion of the world or light heavyweight champion of the world, which I guess is what they are and he then engineers a plot to get himself a title shot and this involves becoming friends with Adonis again, rekindling their friendship, asking if he can work at the gym, going to work at the gym and then having one of his prison buddies go and injure so Adonis is, is promoting a fight, he's, Adonis is essentially Don King at this point, he's promoting a fight between his champ. Uh, Chavez and I believe the Drago kid.
Mike00:28:54Yeah, Ivan Drago's son.
JVL00:28:56Ivan Drago's son from, from two. And at the, uh, at a party prior to the fight, uh, a ruckus breaks out and somebody hits Drago's hand with a pipe, shades of Tanya Harding breaks his hand. This is weeks before the fight. And, uh, we, we later learned that this is Dame's friend. Dame has engineered this. And Dame then goes to Adonis and says, sub me in, put me in. It'll be, uh, I'll be the, it'll be like the first Rocky, you know, like nobody will give me a chance. You'll sell a lot of tickets. You'll sell a lot of pay-per-views for it. And that's what, that's what Adonis decides to do. He puts him in, Dame defeats the champion. So it is like he is Sylvester Stallone, right? Right.
Mike00:29:44Uh, and somehow he's the bad guy.
JVL00:29:47And what this looks like to me is a story about a guy who got sent to jail for trying to save his hotheaded friend who never rolled on his friend, but who kept himself in shape and never lost sight of his dream and then figured out a way to get himself his title shot once he got out and then he made the most of it and shocked the world. Dame is the hero of that story and Adonis maybe isn't the villain because he didn't like mean for all these things to happen and, you know, he was just a kid and all that, but it done. And, and so the, the story then goes out of its way to try to make Dame look sinister and, you know, he says things like, you know, I'm going to come take everything that you have now to Adonis, but of course that's not possible. You can't, Adonis is now a successful businessman, you know, Dame is, Dame is not going to take anything from him and, uh, Dame has just finally gotten him himself the life that, that was going to be his until he decided to try to stop his, his young friend from getting his ass beat. Right, right. Isn't that a problem? I mean, did, did you have that sense as you were watching it? I just kept thinking they're trying to make this, this character Dame played by Jonathan Majors, essentially playing Dame as if he's Kang the Conqueror from Hangman, with the same weird emotional swings and changes in demeanor and, you know, thoughtful and introspective at one moment to like wildly unhinged in the next moment, I do wonder if this guy has more than two speeds, uh, but if he doesn't decide to play that character as a villain in like three or four key moments, the, the particulars of the story make that character, the hero.
Mike00:31:44I, I hear what you're saying. It did not play like that to me in the moment. Um, which may be, it may be because I'm susceptible to the filmmakers, uh, you know, magic tricks here because, uh, you lay it all out in a, in a way that makes a whole lot of sense. I think a couple of things that, and we can talk about this, uh, cause you wanted to talk about this JVL about the, the, this concept of, of fixing and, um, and, and, and how it plays in. But I, I do think in the moral universe of these movies, uh, what Dane did to get his shot, uh, was villainous, right? But the, the, the, uh, uh, getting into the fight by having his prison buddy, uh, break, uh, Ivan Drago, you know, Drago Jr.'s, uh, hand lying to Adonis about his intentions, um, that, I mean, so it's not just that the movie wants you to, and he, he acts majors acts in a way that is villainous. I mean, there are plot points that. Reveal him to be villainous. Um, but I think what you get, what you're touching on here is a sort of weakness in the plot itself, which is, um, why wouldn't, why wouldn't he want his shot? And isn't it a problem? I mean, the, the, the movie kind of waves it away, you know, that, that it was a problem that Adonis ran away and, and that, uh, he sort of had this life that, that Dane never was able to have. And it wasn't as if Dame, you know, uh, shot them all. Uh, and. And, uh, and, and, and killed a bunch of people and that's why they sent him away. So, um, there is an, there's something unfair about the circumstances of the plot, but that doesn't actually, it doesn't gel with what the movie wants to do, uh, which is make it a sort of black and white hero versus villain.
JVL00:33:39Yeah, no, I, I agree. And, and as for the, and this is why I say, like, it depends on which side of the telescope you're looking at it from because the, the unfairness with which he gets his title shot, like. It can look like unfairness or it can look like the successful heist from Ocean's Eleven.
Mike00:33:54Yeah.
JVL00:33:55Right. Where it's, you know, the guy is just, you know, he gets out, he's worked hard and he's figuring out the angles of how to, to get him to where he, like, he's not cheating to win the title, right? I mean, that, that would be different, right? If he, he puts a, a roll of quarters in his glove so that his punches, you know, hurt Chavez more or something like that would be, would be different. And I would say the story understands that it's got this backwards because. At the conclusion of, of the movie, the movie ends with Adonis going to sit with Dame. Right. After their fight. And suddenly all of Dame's villainy is gone. The act of having been beaten in the ring makes Dame like now all of those, those villainous moments that we were given to sort of have the movie cue you into, this is the bad guy Adonis has to, but he's just, you know, Hey man, you really showed me boy, we hit each other pretty hard. Didn't we bra? Yeah. You know, you ever need me? I'm here for you. I wish I hadn't run.
Mike00:34:54Yeah.
JVL00:34:54You know, I love you like a brother, man.
Mike00:34:56Like, and, and then we're just, what's. I mean, I mean, uh, Dame actually absolves him of the senses. It wasn't on you. It wasn't on you. Right. And that kind of allows us as the audience to say, Oh, okay.
JVL00:35:08So it's all, it's all good. Which again. So, and this is why I think it, it, it gets the, it, that shows that Dame is the hero because the truth is it was on. Adonis.
Mike00:35:21Yeah.
JVL00:35:23What happened to Dame's life is Adonis's fault, not Dame's right. Adonis is the one who lost and the movie could have changed this, right? The movie could have had it be, they pull into the thing and it's Dame who flips out and, or, you know, or he robs a liquor store or something like that. Right. But it isn't, I mean, he is explicitly coming to prevent his little friend from getting killed.
Mike00:35:45Right.
JVL00:35:45Uh, and, and that's why I think the movie is slightly confused about this.
Mike00:35:50Uh, why, why do you think, why do you think that is? Because again, you do, I do get the sense that, you know, despite this being, you know, a franchise spinoff franchise of another beloved franchise, there is this kind of constant desire, not just in the way that the movie looks as we've discussed a little bit, but, but sort of in the plotting to, you know, find a new way, a new story to tell, or a new way to tell the story. Um, you know, there is this moral ambiguity that as you point out, like is, is inherent in the story, right? Is this is, uh, they could have made some different decisions with the storytelling, uh, to, to, to make, uh, Dane be more villainous. Um, there, you know, were they trying to sort of insert a lot more moral ambiguity here to, to make it more interesting, uh, or did they just kind of not, maybe not realize what, what kind of inconsistencies they ended up inserting into this?
JVL00:36:50So here's, here's my theory. My theory is that this is actually an incredibly ambitious story because it, and it, it's simply at the end of the day, they didn't quite have the courage of their convictions to follow the ambition to its logical conclusion, right? Cause the logical conclusion sees Adonis as kind of the villain and this, this, you know, Dame is kind of the hero. Um, but the reason I say it's ambitious is because this is the first, the first of the Rocky movies. To attempt to portray boxing as it really exists in the world as a business. So I sent you when, when, right when we went to see this, a piece from Deadspin, uh, now nine years ago, uh, by a guy named Charles Farrell. He is a former boxing promoter and it, it's called why I fixed fights. Right. And it's like a 5,000 word explanation of how the boxing business works. And the answer is that everything in boxing is arranged about trying to get everybody involved paid. You know, both boxers want to get paid. The promoters want to get paid. And what this means is that in almost all cases, the fights are fixed. And the, the, the reason the fights are fixed is because the way to get people to pay days is by managing them up through the ranks, getting them enough wins so that they can eventually get, uh, a high profile, right? And once you get to the high profile fights, those are not fixed for the most part, right? You know, once you get to, unless they're fixed by the boxers themselves, we'll get to that in a moment. Um, and so, uh, this is, you know, and so the, the, you know, Farrell talks about how, how they did business, right? So he would have a guy who he thought was promising enough that he might be able to get to, to a, you know, a title shot, right? And title shots are where the big money is, whether you win or lose. And, uh, so, but he would need a bunch of wins, right? So he'd have a guy who needed to get like eight wins so that he could be like 11 and two or something.
Mike00:39:00Right.
JVL00:39:01And so he would go to a gym, uh, to a character like Adonis Creed and say, Hey, I got this guy who's a cruiserweight. Uh, we're having an event in, uh, you know, Cabo San Lucas in June and my guy needs a good five or six. And the other trainer would look at him and say, yeah, I got a guy who could do that for you. And he would find a boxer in his gym and everybody understands. Everybody understands their role, right? You don't have to say you got to go down in the sixth, right? That's not, that's not how this works. No, the young guy, the guy at the gym getting tapped for the job knows that this is how you continue to get paid, right? You're going and providing a service, right? You're going and providing a service, right? You got to provide a good workout for the guy. And it's essentially sparring the, the, the guy in the, in the gym who's knows that he has to provide a guy who's going to go down in the sixth round because that's how he gets his boxers more work, right? Right. And the, and then on top of all of this, there is even the level of guys who know that a fight is going to end in, you know, the third round or something. A lot of the promoters will then go and place heavy bets. On this because they know that the fight is fixed and Creed three touches on all of this. Yes. We see in the very beginning, the golden gloves match where, uh, Dame has instructed Adonis to put money on a knockout in the fifth round and you know, they wait, they get to the fifth round and then Dame just turns it on and the guy falls down. And it is even hinted at when Dame finally gets his title shot. It is hinted very strongly by the script. That he understands that his role is to not win that fight, but he refuses to play to the script. Right. I mean, Adonis is basically fixing that fight. You know, we don't kill yourself out there when you know, and he is supposed to go out and give him, give Chavez just, just like in the feral story, you know, give him a good five or six rounds and Dame won't lay down like that.
Mike00:41:12That's right. He says to the pair, to Chavez, Adonis says to Chavez, his mother and to Chavez, like, trust me. Right. I mean, there's something, there's something, uh, about saying, trust me, that suggests a, uh, strongly suggests he knows the outcome already.
JVL00:41:28Yeah. And, uh, and this, again, I think it's wildly ambitious to try to show this side of boxing in a series of movies, which is all about viewing boxing as a valiant act of the human spirit.
Mike00:41:46Right. Right.
JVL00:41:47And I, I really, I admire that ambition. I admire the ambition of trying to show that Adonis Creed is maybe the bad guy now. I, I, I like all that. I just think that the script doesn't, it gets all the way out, like over, you know, and, and then all of a sudden it's like, uh, Wile E. Coyote running off a cliff, right? You get so far out in the air and his legs are spinning, but then he looks down and he stops running and he falls. And the story doesn't quite follow. Follow how it should have. Does that make sense?
Mike00:42:21Absolutely. Is it stuck in being a part of this franchise? I mean, it's like talent trying to tell, uh, it's like trying to tell a complex story in, you know, in the Marvel cinematic universe. I mean, it, it can be done, but you know, you're also dealing with a kind of, you're dealing with a business itself, right? I mean, you know, you want to, you want to, this has got to be, you got to have audiences feel like. Uh, Adonis Creed played by Michael B. Jordan, who's, uh, a likable, good looking, uh, you know, uh, everybody's on board with Michael B. Jordan. You got to have him win, right? You got to have him not only win, but be the hero. And that's coming up against this, this desire to tell a more complex story.
JVL00:43:05I do realize that this is like me going to dungeons and dragons and asking for there to be a meditation on the economics of feudal life. Like this is, I get it. Now that I will go see. That movie, I will be excited about that. But the thing is the movie goes so far down this road, right? It goes so far down the road and the, the, the fight fixing stuff really is just wild. Uh, I, I, I'll put a link to this dead spin piece. Um, everybody should read it again. It's, it's insanely long. Uh, but it's, you know, the way, again, the way everybody who is in the business sort of takes this stuff as a matter. Of course, so that it's not even something that's like done on the down low, like to say it's a dirty secret of boxing would be wrong. Cause it's not a secret. It is part of the business because everybody's looking to get, to get where they're going. And, and this is, you know, what's funny. Uh, it is basically open when you look at what Logan Paul is doing and Jake Paul. Yes. Do you, have you paid attention to this at all?
Mike00:44:10Uh, barely, but I, I know enough to know that, I mean, it is, it feels more like professional wrestling. Then the Rocky version of boxing for sure.
JVL00:44:21So Jake Paul, who is an influencer, uh, has started a boxing promotion and turned himself into a boxer. Right. And what he has done is he has fought a string of old retired MMA fighters. At first he fought like some reformer NBA player, like just basically carnival acts. Um, the idea being every fight is a tease into like, oh, could he get to, could he succeed at the next level? And people hate watch it and the bros love it. And it has done amazing business. Uh, they've made so much money off of this thing and it is at every level, like it's not a, it, you know, it's, it's not boxing in, in the sense that it's real, but also it's clearly fixed. Right. Right. Because every. Everything is about setting up the next pay-per-view and he finally lost a fight, but, you know, it was to Tyson Fury and this was supposed to be like a big culmination because Tyson Fury is almost a professional boxer. Uh, but then it was a, it was a dirty decision. And so there'll be a rematch and, uh, you see this even with, with Floyd Mayweather. So this is, this is the Mayweather is an incredibly interesting guy because he took the idea of fixing to the next level. In the sense that he was fixing his own fights and the, and the, so he, you know, we made a bazillion dollars with him fighting Conor McGregor, uh, I don't know, five years ago. Do you remember this?
Mike00:46:02Oh yeah.
JVL00:46:02So Conor McGregor, this Irish MMA guy who was incredibly, I mean, he's like a, a walking, talking Guy Ritchie character.
Mike00:46:11Right.
JVL00:46:12And he, he's an incredible showman. One of these guys who just. Is absolutely preternaturally gifted at drawing heat. You know, like he, he just, he's practically like Ric Flair of the legitimate sports world. Right. Um, and he and May, he and Mayweather sign up for a boxing match. There is no way that somebody from a mixed martial arts background could possibly hope to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather. Like it just, it's, it's silly. Right. And yet this match went like 11 rounds, I think. And why did it go 11 rounds? Because Floyd Mayweather wanted to tease the prospect of a rematch. That's right. Right. Mayweather knows what the score is. Yeah. Like this is, and God bless him. Right. Because normally the boxers are the ones who wind up getting, getting out of luck. Right. Boxers never retire rich is, is the rule of thumb. It's always the promoters who make the marks. The boxers are the marks. Right. Uh, and God bless Floyd Mayweather for, for actually making money off of himself. Uh, I, I, I, none of this is meant as a slight, I wish more boxers have the savvy to do it. Uh, but that's, that's what boxing is. That is the essence of boxing.
Mike00:47:32This is what boxing really has always been. I think there's, I'm not a, you know, a connoisseur or, or a deep watcher of, of boxing. Um, and I frankly, mostly know boxing from boxing movies. Um, and me, it's a very. There's an interesting sort of parallel between boxing and show business and the way that movies seem to have a love affair with boxing. You know, there's boxing movies seem to have an outsize, uh, presence in, in Hollywood, uh, relative to boxing's own kind of presence in our everyday life. Um, but you know, I mean, there's, uh, so I don't know if there's ever a golden age of boxing, but you know, I mean, As far as I know, in terms of the history of it, those sort of modern history of it, I mean, much like, much like show business, it's sort of, uh, you know, fringes of society, criminal enterprise in its origins. And, um, so in a way it's sort of sticking close to its, to its roots in, in, in that way, in that way. And, and you get a lot of that in this, uh, in this deadspin piece, just how sort of, uh, how much of the sort of fringe of society it sort of feeds off of. Um, it's, it's fan bases in many ways. I mean, uh, uh, this, uh, Farrell guy was talking about, you know, going down to North Carolina and, and, and staging these fights as he calls them, you know, for these, you know, rednecks, um, who, who just want to see, you know, blood. Um, and I don't know, it just, there's, there's some things that's, that's sort of, you know, in many ways, Rocky and some of the other male, uh, films that about boxing, but particularly Rocky have sort of, um, really twisted our perception. Of what, what boxing is, but what boxing has always been, which is just kind of just barely above, uh, criminal enterprise.
JVL00:49:25Yeah, there was a, one of his, one of his great stories and I'll stop talking about this piece. Uh, it's about the McNeely Tyson match. So, uh, you're too young to remember this. Mike Tyson was, uh, the baddest man who ever lived when it came to boxing. Um, at least in like the, the popular imagination, you know, people thought they'd never seen. Uh, heavyweight like him and, uh, this guy, Vin Vecchione, who is a promoter had this fighter named Pete, Peter McNeely. This is basically the, the plot of the great white hoe, the great white hype. So McNeely is this Irish kid from the Midwest. He's white, he's good looking. And, uh, this promoter Vin Vecchione manages him from the beginning years ahead of time to get him a title shot. Against Mike Tyson, because he thinks that the prospect of a Midwestern handsome kid fighting Mike Tyson gangbanger from the Bronx will be absolutely irresistible to boxing fans. And he's right. Totally. And so he gets McNeely, uh, his shot against Tyson. It is at that point, the largest grossing event in the history of sports. 89 seconds, 89 seconds into it, Vecchione slips through the ring, uh, the ropes after McNeely goes down and stops the fight. Vecchione seems to have placed a million dollars on the prospect of the fight, not going past 90 seconds. And this guy then Vecchione disappeared and was never seen again. And so this was a year's long. I mean, this guy had basically spent a decade preparing for this moment because he realized how much money could be made off of, uh, off of boxing. It's, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it is Oceans 11.
Mike00:51:29So that, that, that story, by the way, that story was great. He tells it so well. I mean, the way that he describes Vecchione casually, you know, entering the ring as if like, uh, you know, he's just taking his sweet time when of course he's got it down to the precise second. What it was a great, it was just like, wow. Like one story after this piece is fantastic.
JVL00:51:49Yeah. I've always, I've never, I've always wanted to understand the Buster Douglas, Mike Tyson fight. So this is, it happened when I was in high school. And again, I was just assumed Mike Tyson will be heavyweight champion of the world for forever.
Mike00:52:02Right.
JVL00:52:03And, uh, you know, I woke up one Sunday morning and this is before the internet, but like, you know, it hadn't quite made the newspaper, but people were saying like, Mike Tyson lost last night. Like, what the fuck? We didn't even know. And it's, it's in Japan. It was against a guy named Buster Douglas that nobody had ever heard of before. And Buster Douglas knocked him out. People like, what the fuck? We lost our minds. And I've never, I hope somebody has written like an oral history about this. I can't imagine that. I am. I imagine this as something, some version of something went wrong in the fix. Like Buster Douglas was not supposed to win. Buster Douglas was not supposed to, to knock out Mike Tyson. Right. This is just a. If, if they were going to do a title change like that, and it would have been done in fucking Japan. It would have gone in Vegas. Right. Right. It would have been the biggest pay-per-view in the history of sports if they were going to push. But it was something, something happened. And I am, I remain utterly convinced that there's a story behind it. And I've never, never learned what it was.
Mike00:53:03Well, you know, that is interesting. What Farrell says is, you know, there are those moments where it does get off script and you don't, you know, and, and, and he didn't even identify them. Right. And he can see in the moment. Oh, they've just said there's, he talks about, you know, a fixed fight that, you know, where he could see both of the, uh, both of the fighters deciding to throw the script away in the moment in the ring. Yeah, that's, it's, it's great. Um, real quick JVL before, before we, uh, before we move on or before we go, uh, just about the, the movie itself. Um, I mean, what do you, maybe you guys have discussed this before I joined the show, but what do you, what's your view of Michael B. Jordan? I remember when I remember the first time I saw him was on the wire and the first season of the wire when he was, you know, um, I think he's about my age, you know, when he was a kid. Um, and, uh, and, you know, you've seen his kind of rise through the ranks and now here he is directing and he's the star and all that. What do you, I mean, what do you make of him? Is this, is this a movie star or is this, you know, uh, uh, just, uh, you know, he's always seems to be interesting on camera and he was the best part of black Panther.
JVL00:54:11So any thoughts, the biggest mistake, Kevin Feige ever. Made was not figuring out some way to bring his character back to life and make Michael be Jordan, the new black Panther. Yes. I don't care how much money it would have taken to, to get him to take that role. I don't care how ridiculous the, Oh, well, the Wakanda has the special blah, blah, blah herb. And that can make, you know, it could have been as dumb as the, the rebirth of Superman after the death of Superman. Like, you know, Oh, that turns out that was just a healing coma. Clark was in fine, fucking whatever. Cause you know what? Michael Jordan is a damn movie star.
Mike00:54:55Totally.
JVL00:54:56And you just lost Chadwick Boseman, who was an enormous movie star. Put Michael Jordan in that role. People will want to watch him play that role. And, uh, I, I really like Letitia, right? I think is the character who plays Shuri, his sister. Right. I like her a ton. I think she's a wonderful actress. Uh, I do not think she is yet. Capable of carrying a franchise on her back, which is asking a lot of, of an actor. Um, you know, and it didn't help that Angela Bassett, who is the other gigantic movie star in, in the S the second Wakanda, uh, they kill her off, you know, a third of the way through the movie. And so you, you lose the other giant movie star, uh, and you know, in the first black Panther had all of those actors plus Daniel Kaluuya. And yeah, I, I don't know. I think Michael B. Jordan. It's great. Yes. I think I've liked him and everything I've ever seen him in. I think he's a giant movie star and, uh, I can understand why he wouldn't want to play black Panther, but Marvel could have made him an offer. He couldn't write. Right. I mean, we'll give you Robert Downey jr. Money, right?
Mike00:56:04No, I, I, I tend to agree. I, and I will be interested to see sort of the next steps of his career, but it does, it does seem a bit like the world is, is his oyster and he can. Kind of at this point, do what he wants. Um, I don't know. I just, I was really impressed. And I, I also liked seeing Felicia Rashad, um, uh, and her little role there. It's just nice to see. It was like, it was like a, a, a friendly, familiar face. Uh, once again, I get, was she in, I can't remember. Was she in the other, she was in the second creed. She in the first one. Was she in the first one? Okay. I get, I get, I get them all mixed up, but, um, uh, great to see her, uh, in, in this movie. And, um, yeah, I, I tend to agree with you about Jonathan. And majors as well. I, I don't quite, I still don't get him and what his, what his deal is. Like you said, does, is he just too speed? Because, uh, seeing him in the, in the, in the horrible Ant-Man movie. And then, and then this one, um, it just don't see a lot of range or a lot of like, uh, subtlety, uh, in what he's doing, but may, I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something.
JVL00:57:10Hi. I mean, Hollywood has decided to make him happen. Right. And Hollywood decides to do it. They do this for actors all the time. Right. It seems like every year there's like two or three guys, uh, that Hollywood just decides, you know, we're going to fairy godmother, like tap you. And it's always like the Josh Hartnett's of the world. Right. Yeah. And, or the Sam Worthington's or Sam Worthington when he was, oh, yes. Uh, you know, and sometimes it works. Sometimes Hollywood is right. But at the end of the day, you have to have the goods. That's the thing. Um, movie stars can't be, you can't fake being a movie star. Because audiences just react to the way they react. And, uh, I don't think audiences ever get fooled by, by an actor in that way. And, and I, I say movie star, but I do want to be clear. This is not to impugn their skills as an actor, but, but being a movie star is different than me. Right. You know, very good actors can be movie stars. Not all movie stars are great actors. Uh, they are separate jobs, uh, you know, to, to be a movie star. It means you have to be able to carry every frame of a film, sometimes a franchise, uh, along with you on your charisma on screen.
Mike00:58:24Yes.
JVL00:58:25And I don't know that, uh, I, I just don't know that Jonathan majors is, has the goods. Maybe.
Mike00:58:34We'll see. I, I, two movies in a row that I've seen with him and, and, and just sort of, I don't see it yet, but. Am I wrong that he was playing Kang in Creed three?
JVL00:58:44Like Damon Kang. Like have the same like weird speed changes from like. Yes. Introspective to manic, introspective to manic. And.
Mike00:58:54I would say there's a little, he was a less extreme in this one than in Ant-Man, which is maybe to be expected. This is like a grounded in realism movie, whereas that's a superhero movie, but essentially yes. Playing, playing much the same character. And it was, you know, it was, um, it was just hard for me to, you know, it's those times where it's. You're, you're, you're hard pressed to believe some of those shifts, you know, it just takes you out of the movie a bit. And, and, and, you know, I think I, an actor with some more subtlety could, um, could pull it off, but, but I didn't, I just didn't get it. I didn't get it. Yeah. Anyway.
JVL00:59:35All right. That's all the time we're going to give to this show. Uh, go subscribe to the sub beacon on the Patrion at sub beacon.com. Go to our T public store. Buy some of the merch. The shirts are really cool. We'll see you next week.
Mike00:59:58Any, uh, JBL, any thoughts on, uh, on, uh, everything, everywhere, all at once winning all the Oscars.
JVL01:00:06So, uh, here's what I want more than anything in the world. My mother-in-law who is a. Saintly, saintly woman.
Mike01:00:17Yes.
JVL01:00:18Who loves every movie she ever sees, who will sometimes cry at Hallmark commercials. Sure. Who just sees the best in everybody. Uh, I want to watch everything, everywhere, all at once with my Peggy and just see what happens. I, I just want to do it already.
Mike01:00:41I'm surprised you didn't take her to the theater and.
JVL01:00:43I, well, I wasn't up here when it came out. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's right. Uh, she, I, I've started pushing on this and she said, I don't know. I was watching the Oscars and they showed a try. I couldn't even tell. What is this movie even about? Just so it's about everything, everywhere, all at once. And like, I want to, I want her to see the black dildo scene. I want her to try to understand. Like I can just picture her like, I don't understand. What is this? Everything bagel.
Mike01:01:11You know? Right. Right.
JVL01:01:13I am there for it.
Mike01:01:14The hot dog finger. The hot dog fingers, I think is like, that's like the point where you're either with this movie or you're not. Yeah. So. And to be clear, I don't, so you weren't on the show. Did you love everything, everywhere, all at once? Oh, I loved it. I, I texted Sonny as soon as I got out, uh, because he, because it was on his recommendation that I even went to see it. I was like on my own or something like that. I didn't have, it was like, I had some, some reason in the middle of the day where I had something, uh, nothing to do. And I had no responsibility. And I was like, I got to go see a movie. And I knew Sonny had been recommending it on, on Twitter. So I said, I'm going to go see it. I texted him on my way and I texted him on my way out. I said, I loved it. It's a movie about parents and parenthood and dealing with your own children. And I just ate it all up. But what you're, you were, were you less enthusiastic?
JVL01:02:08I know this is what's weird. This is one of the, uh, the rare kind of movie where I didn't love it. Uh, and yet I was ecstatic about it.
Mike01:02:20Okay.
JVL01:02:21Does this make sense? I was so happy that it got made. Yes. I was so happy that it existed in the world. I had a great time watching it in the theater. Uh, I, because I just thought this is what film should be. This is a big, interesting thing with so many ideas and it's original and it is ambitious and it doesn't all work for me. To be honest. Uh, I don't know that I would watch it again. I would totally watch it with my mother-in-law, but other than that, I don't know that I would watch it again. Um, but that isn't the point. The point is that it isn't about me, that this is what I want the movies to be like. And so I was rooting. Does this make sense? Like I was really rooting for the movie, even though I didn't love it. So I don't mean in the Oscar race. I just mean in general, in the universe, I was rooting for the movie to succeed and be recognized and to have, to have the industry realize that like, see, you can do it. You can do this.
Mike01:03:16Right. And look, I mean, I think we had a couple of movies this year that were sort of like that because I feel the same way about, I actually really liked it, but I feel the same way about wanting it to succeed as Top Gun Maverick. You know, I mean, just, you know, these movies that are sort of, um, remind you that, oh yeah, this is what, this is what a movie should be like. This is not a TV show where I'm watching eight or 10 episodes and then I get the cliffhanger and I have to wait. For the next season. Um, this is not a superhero movie, which, uh, you know, it just, I know exactly every beat it's going to hit, you know, from, from point A to point B. Um, you know, I just, that, that, that thrill of like going to see a movie and be like, what is this about? Or what is this going to be like? Or am I going to be, you know, in tears or standing up at the end? I don't know. It just, it's, it feels a bit like everything everywhere all at once was a bit of a statement. Like, yeah, like movies.
JVL01:04:15Are back, especially, especially because you could easily see what that would have looked like as a Netflix show. So if everything everywhere all at once goes to Netflix, Netflix turns it into a series. And in the series, each episode is spent in one of the universes. Yes. And it goes on for 13 episodes. And then maybe if it's successful, they try to turn into stranger things. They tried making lunch boxes and, and you can, you can see how bad it would have been as that, right? Like it's absolutely, I mean, I, I would be shocked if Netflix hadn't seen the script and thought to themselves, Ooh, maybe we should look into making this right. We could, I can see how this would work for us. And, uh, in the Daniels didn't let it happen. They, they made it into a movie instead of a Netflix property. And so I love that.
Mike01:05:09Well, there's the through line singular vision, right? I guess in that case. A dual vision shared by the, by the creators is very similar to, again, Top Gun Maverick. This was a Tom Cruise like movie. Like he had an idea of what he wanted to make and, uh, and, uh, and he, and he was allowed to make it. So I, yeah. Um, good. Well, it's, it's a good thing at one. I'm, I'm happy at one. I'm happy for all the, all the actors who, who won those, uh, for the, uh, for, for that movie as well. Jamie Lee Curtis and Michelle Yeoh and, um, and short round.
JVL01:05:38So I'm sure it's fine.
?01:05:42Subtitles by the Amara.org community
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