#163. Yo, Adrian
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This short bonus episode is just Sonny and Mike, with JVL still out sick and the promised Cocaine Bear review pushed to Friday, so the two spin out from the prior week's Rocky IV talk into a full tour of the Rocky and Creed franchise. Mike stakes out the episode's thesis: only the 1976 original Rocky is truly great — an indie-feeling, homemade movie with a raw populist message and a cast (Talia Shire, Burt Young, Burgess Meredith) giving everything, with Stallone having caught lightning in a bottle and spent the rest of his career chasing it — while he dismisses the sequels as fun but interchangeable cable-Saturday-afternoon schlock. Sonny counters with a riff from Quentin Tarantino's book Cinema Speculation about how Rocky's unashamedly happy ending detonated on a mid-1970s American cinema landscape saturated with dark, ironic New Hollywood fare, then traces that same anti-irony instinct through Tarantino's own filmography (Kill Bill, Inglourious Basterds, Django Unchained, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood), with Reservoir Dogs singled out as the exception. The pair then work through the Creed films, praising Ryan Coogler's original Creed as arguably his best-directed movie while noting its forgettable villain, and give real credit to the underrated Ivan Drago–and-son father story in Creed II; they also roast Rocky V and razz each other over the infamous cut robot from Rocky IV, before closing by daydreaming about the Rocky vs. Rambo crossover Hollywood is apparently too scared to make. Sonny signs off previewing Creed III (his review to run at The Bulwark) and promising Cocaine Bear — and hopefully a recovered JVL — next time.
From the show notes
More Rocky talk just for you!
Full transcript
Sonny00:00:00Welcome back to the Sub-Beacon. It's me and Mike Warren still, JVL's still out, he's sick. We're hoping to have him back next week for Cocaine Bear, Bear Day Cocaine. It's gonna be a fun time, but we just wanted to talk a little more about Rocky and Creed and those movies because it is a, it's kind of a weird and fascinating accidental franchise. Um, you, uh, Mike, we're saying that you only really love the first one. That's like the only one that you have any special affection for.
Mike00:00:44Yeah. I mean, I do feel like the first one, you know, what, 1976, like the movie gets short shrift now because of everything that followed. It's one of these things that's diminished by the fact that not even the fact that like it had bad sequels or like uneven kind of series, but just like the fact that it had all of these, you know, follow on movies that like Sylvester Stallone doesn't seem to be able to give up the ghost on this. Like I don't, I, you know, but, but take it as its own. I watched it a few years ago and, and, and wrote something about it and it was, it, it, it was struck me like a, a couple of things. One, it is, it feels like an indie movie in a lot of ways. And it has this kind of like homemade feel to it. But with a, but like not with the sort of well, I'll, I'll just back up and say it's, it's got a indie movie feel, but with a very populist kind of raw, raw message, obviously. And so like the combination really works. It feels, it feels as scrappy as the character is. And it tells this, this terrific story. It's a very American story. It is, it is kind of, it lacks irony and it's, it's actually just a well-made movie. It's, it's, it's paced very well. And you can just feel like it's almost as if like Sylvester Stallone, like, like he, he gave everything into this movie and I, everything else since then has essentially been him chasing this like lightning in a bottle he captured. I think it's great. Talia Shire is, is great in this. I mean, she like males in, in, in some of the, some of the later ones Burt young merge Burgess Meredith. I mean, it, it, I, I love all the cast. I think it's a great message movie and it's just, I love it. I, I, well, I can take, take or leave the other ones.
Sonny00:02:50Well, it's, it's funny that you mentioned, it's funny that you mentioned that because there's a, there's a riff in Quentin Tarantino's book cinema speculation, which is like his kind of book. It's a book like critical commentary about a bunch of stuff. But one of the things he talks about in that book is the, the, the like nuclear bomb of Rocky on the cinematic scene, because like in the 19th, in 1970s, American cinema, at that point, everything is dark, depressing, jaded, you know, things, things are worse than you think, you know, they're, they're secret, uh, hidden forces arrayed against everybody. There are no happy endings. You can't have a happy ending. And, uh, when, when Rocky comes out, it upends all of that. I mean, it, it becomes, it becomes a huge hit with audiences who are like desperate for something, um, kind of joyous and, and upbeat. Um, and it, uh, it, it, it just, it just, the reason, the reason it becomes a huge commercial and a huge critical and, uh, a huge Oscar hit is because it was, it was a real kind of throwback sensibility to. Um, you know, a feeling of positivity at the movies that had disappeared in the new Hollywood and post new Hollywood era. And that actually, it like, it got me thinking about the, about, uh, Quentin Tarantino's body of work just in general. And like for, for as, for as much talk of Tarantino as a, um, you know, kind of modern ironist, you know, uh, you know, a, a, a guy who is making dark movies, right? Like, I think, I feel like that is a general sense that, you know, his movies are a little bit darker. All of his movies have exceptionally happy endings. Like his, he is, he is a movie. He is a guy who is making movies that have, uh, happy and positive endings all the time. Like the, the Kill Bill movies, right? Inglourious Bastards rewrites history to have, uh, uh, Hitler happily gunned down in a movie theater. Um, you know, uh, Django Unchained is about kind of flipping the, the slave narrative, uh, once upon a time in Hollywood, again, same thing, kind of rewriting, um, rewriting history. The only one that doesn't interestingly is his first Reservoir Dogs, which kind of ends with, is like very much one of those, like, is, it feels like a 1970s dark, ironic, you know, everybody dies, everybody, uh, gets it at the end. And, um, it is, it is separate from the rest of his work in that way.
Mike00:05:25Well, and it feels like Reservoir Dogs is, is sort of like the senior thesis. I mean, it's a great movie. I don't mean to denigrate it by saying this, but like it's a senior thesis, uh, of a, of a movie where he sort of, uh, ends up kind of transcending it, I think, you know, to your point about the happy endings and sort of coming up with a more, uh, a, a more fully formed idea of like what he wants his movies to be like. So, no, I see that. I, I totally see that. Um, yeah, yeah.
Sonny00:05:55You don't like, you don't like the sequels though, the sequels
Mike00:05:57are fine. It's just, again, it's, it is like four, it is cable, uh, afternoon on a rainy Saturday afternoon, like schlock to me. Like they are fun. Um, they're just, they, you know, they don't, they're, they're pale imitations of what I think was a very, um, uh, like I said, lightning in a bottle, but also like very serious movie. I mean, you get the sense that like Sylvester Sloan took the first Rocky extremely seriously wrote it, uh, he was like. I committed to this story and then everything else, even if that's not the case, even if he felt like there was more story to tell everything else just feels like, uh, he's trying to, uh, write the next hit song, but he can't quite do it. And I just, I mean, clubber laying is, um, like it's like a great, I mean, it's hilarious to see and, and fantastic to see Mr. T and all that. And then like Rocky Balboa, which was what that was 2006. Like the problem is, is that they all sort of start to bleed together. And maybe this has to do with catching it on cable, uh, uh, you know, on, on, on TCM or whatever, you know, uh, TNT or whatever they were on is like, now I can't remember what movie I've, you know, I, I, that, that scene was from, uh, which one is this? Is this Rocky two or three? Like I, you know, and so then it becomes hard and it becomes kind of a mishmash. Whereas the first one is like a very singular, uh, like a memory I have of the first time I watched it every time I've, you know, watched it since, so, um, that's, that's just how I feel. And, and, but, but, you know, I, I'm not as, uh, and I'm not as read in on, I have, I think I've only seen the first Creed movie. So I'm, I'm sort of out of it on, on the, on the, I guess the spinoff series as well.
Sonny00:07:38Yeah. Creed Creed is interesting because it, uh, it, the first Creed in particular kind of does the same thing as that first Rocky movie. It is very much a movie about, um, a person and a place in a milieu. Um, it's a, it's a movie about a guy trying to. Uh, wrestle with his father's legacy while also creating his own legacy. Um, and it's, and it's, uh, you know, and it's wrapped up in all of the Sylvester Stallone Rocky stuff where he's trying to, you know, um, he's trying to make it it's, it's, it's interesting because the movie, the title of the movie is Creed, uh, Rocky Balboa and Sylvester Stallone. Sylvester Stallone was the only person who got nominated really for an Oscar for that movie. Interestingly. Um, he, he get, he got nominated for supporting actor for. Uh, his, his, his turn in that, but the, uh, but you know, the it's, it's, it is, it is, it's very much a real movie in the way that the, uh, the, the first Rocky was and Ryan Coogler directed, he wrote and directed, um, Creed and, uh, it's, I think it's actually his best movie style. It's just his best movie movie. I mean, it's, it's like the, the, the place where the storytelling and the, um, cinematic style all comes together most cleanly, I have to say, I, I, there, there is a part of me that actually prefers Creed too, because the, the real problem with the first Creed movie is that the, the villain in that movie, Ricky Conlin, pretty, pretty Ricky Conlin is totally unmemorable. Like just, there's no, there's nothing distinctive about him. We have no reason to care about him, um, either for or against him. He's just like kind of a, a blank and Creed tube gets us back into the Creed, uh, versus the Apollo Creed versus Ivan Drago kind of redux of it.
Mike00:09:24You killed my father.
Sonny00:09:25Yeah. I killed my father. Now I wanna, I need to take revenge for the family name, but it, it actually, I mean the most, the most compelling, um, the most compelling portrait of a father and son in the movie is actually Ivan Drago and his boy Victor, uh, which is just this, it's, is I, I really, I, I, I think it's, I think it's less technically accomplished than Creed, but I think it is a much more compelling emotional film. Um, because it really gets into this idea, you know, so the, the basic setup is. Ivan Drago has been abandoned by Russia and he is living in Ukraine, um, where he is training his son to be, uh, uh, a great boxing champion. Um, and, uh, you know, his wife has left him, the, the politicians have all turned their back on him and this is his ticket back into, you know, society. He's gonna train his son to defeat Apollo Creed on the biggest stage. And as the movie progresses, you know, uh, in the, in the big final battle, he realizes that that is not as important as his. Relationship with his son who he needs to protect and like, it's actually, it like it, it is a, it is again, it's emotionally compelling in a way that the first one, um, absolutely is not, even though I, I do think the first one again is it just, it's a better looking movie. It's a better sounding movie. It, it's, uh, you know, it has, it has, uh, some, some better performances in it. Um, but I, so the, the, the one Rocky movie we have not discussed at all interested. It's totally been totally ignored by both Rocky. Five. I don't even remember Tommy Morrison. That's right. Yes. Oh, remember Rocky five Rocky.
Mike00:11:04He goes broke and he trains the trains, the guy, Tommy trains the guy, and then the guy
Sonny00:11:09turns on him and he has to fight him. He has to fight him in the street and not get any of his blood on him. Cuz you know, that's, that's, uh, you know, cuz I mean, it's schlock, it's schlock. It's a, it's a, it's not a good movie. It's not a good movie and it's, it's good that they, they brought Rocky five. They brought Rocky Balboa back. So the, I, I, I had forgotten. So I, I had, because I've only seen Rocky Balboa once, maybe twice, and I've only, I'd only seen Creed once or twice. Um, and so I had thought that, uh, Duke was the one who trains, uh, Adonis Creed, uh, Michael B. Jordan in, in Creed, but that's, I was actually thinking of the scenes in Rocky Balboa. Yes. Where Duke helps Rocky. He's gotta bulk up. He's gotta, you know, cuz Rocky was always such a live fast fighter. Before he's really gotta bulk up in this one to Antonio Tarver.
Mike00:12:01Finally. You're right. Um, yeah, no, I, it's like, it's the, the whole, I mean, say what you want, like about like the, the other, or say what I have about the other sequels. But I mean, there is a kind of, there's like an interesting part of America as well. That's sort of represented in the, in the Rocky movies and, and I would say having not seen, but the first Creed movie, I'm sure in the Creed movie as well. But I, I was thinking back to what you said about. Um, sort of that time in 1976 and what was sort of, uh, you know, everything was, you know, the country was down on itself and movies were certainly like, you know, the, the leading indicator of that. Um, and it's interesting that like, you know, he's this, what used to be called like a, like a white ethnic, right. He's an Italian guy, a working class, um, in the cities. Right. And like, that's kind of this other part of, um, uh, of kind of, I think the charm, the reason why people keep coming back for these things is like, he is, he is sort of like, he is a representative of sort of, um, uh, an immigrant, uh, America that is like, um, fought through it and comes out of the, you know, sort of decaying, uh, urban area and, and succeeds. And there's something, you know, there's something like he keeps coming back for it. I, it's, I, I, I've been trashing the sequels, but like, I, I get it. I can see, I can see why people, why people like him. It's just, um, I mean, just so much, so much schlock there's, I mean, it just needs to
Sonny00:13:25, it just needs, all these movies need like two more montages and then they'll get to
Mike00:13:29rock four. Then we'll yeah, exactly. Then there's just one more montage and one more robot. You know, that's what we need.
Sonny00:13:35One more. I can't believe the director's cut gets rid of the robot. I, I kind of want to see it now. They tore out the guts throughout the guts of that story.
Mike00:13:42They tore out the heart, the cold metal heart of the, uh, of the Rocky four movie live.
Sonny00:13:49That's the robot talking to Paulie now. Terrible. All right. Uh, anyway, I'm gonna go see. Uh, I see, uh, Creed three. I will have seen it by the time you're listening to this. Certainly. I will have reviewed it. My review will be up at the Bulwark, so, uh, just go, go read it there. But, um, I, uh, no, I, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's really, it really is a fascinating series for a bunch of reasons, just because again, the, the accident, the accidental nature of it all, the, the kind of un, it really, there's, there's a, you know, it's this and die hard and you know, the, all the other kind of accidental. Action hero type movies, Rambo, of course, Rambo, this is what I'm waiting for is the,
Mike00:14:31the, the big crossover movie that we've all been waiting for Rocky versus Rambo. I mean, where, like, where is, where is that movie?
Sonny00:14:37I think we have the, we have the technology now we have the technology. We can do it. Let's make it happen. That Hollywood is too scared to do it is a, is a, is another, another question, another problem. All right. Uh, hope everybody enjoyed this. We'll, uh, be back on Friday with cocaine bear, hopefully fingers crossed. Hopefully JBL is back, back to it. Uh, so we'll see you guys then.
?00:14:59Bye.
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