#129. 'Victoria's Secret: Angels and Demons' (Hulu)
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The main topic is Victoria's Secret: Angels and Demons, the Hulu three-part documentary, which the hosts find fascinating but structurally frustrating — essentially two separate documentaries crammed into one series. Sonny calls it about 50% longer than it needs to be, split between a genuinely interesting business story about Les Wexner's Limited Brands empire and the rise and fall of Victoria's Secret, and a wild, barely-connected Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy documentary (Wexner's $400 million to Epstein and power of attorney, insinuations of a sexual relationship, the alleged Mossad angle via Epstein's in-laws, the mysteriously dead French modeling-agency pimp Jean-Luc Brunel, and the trio's shared conviction that Epstein did not hang himself). JVL is captivated by the business history — how Wexner invented "Victoria" as a fictional backstory character (comparing it to the J. Peterman catalog) and then discarded her once the Angels brand took over, and argues the internet's shattering of mass culture, not body positivity, is what really killed the brand; Vic pushes back hard on the "body positivity" framing as incoherent and infuriating. Vic, who watched hoping for something more prurient, is instead disappointed and annoyed by an unattractive on-camera Epstein-conspiracy reporter, though both he and Sonny flag the creepy Pink line launch (very young models, school-uniform outfits, a tricycle) as the episode's most unsettling moment. Vic's Quadrant: Duration a D, Sex/Nudity a C (started strong, then went places nobody wanted). Opening banter runs long, covering JVL's watch-collector YouTube "watch porn" rabbit hole and the friend he's driven to buy ten watches, Sonny's new ambition to become a peppercorn connoisseur, a SAAB car/jet-fighter/Tony Scott tangent, Vic's solo bachelor weekend (Civilization, Popeye's, the TNR Cafe) while his family was away, a harrowing near-drowning incident with Sonny's three-year-old at the pool, box office chat (Where the Crawdads Sing, Thor: Love and Thunder's record MCU drop, Elvis, Top Gun: Maverick), streaming-service and ad-hatred discussion, and a closing bonus riff on model culture (JVL's story of meeting Heidi Klum at the White House Correspondents' Dinner).
From the show notes
Watch talk, food talk, pool talk, then talk about a documentary that felt like two different documentaries jammed together.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00A lot of people have heard of Victoria's Secret, but very few people have heard of the billionaire behind it, Les Wexner. Les is a genius. His brand dominated the malls of America. He is the guy who figured out how to make Americans shop, shop, shop, shop. But there was something else going on at Victoria's Secret. There's a number of red flags and so many questions. And there was talk. There were rumors. Billionaires are all secretive. But Wexner is one of the most. It begs the question, why? And there's this huge mystery. People had mentioned this name.
Sonny00:00:37And part of the mystery was Jeffrey Epstein.
Guest00:00:41Oh boy, this is trouble.
Vic00:00:53Hello and welcome to another edition of the Sub-Beacon. I'm Victor Matus along with Sonny Bunch and Jonathan V. Last. Just a reminder, the Sub-Beacon is now available through Patreon. Go to subbeacon.com. You'll easily find us. Please subscribe. Tell your friends. And don't forget about the Sub-Beacon merchandise store at tpublic.com. Gentlemen, how are we, JVL? What's going on? What are you watching on your computer? Come on. Don't mess up.
JVL00:01:19I'm watching a little bit of watch pornography. What does that mean? It's an unboxing of the new Seiko limited edition. 63 Moss Save the Ocean watches on like you. Is this how you watch on YouTube?
Vic00:01:35It's on you.
JVL00:01:36Watch porn. And and I'm going to say this video. This is this is not your watch cause you don't tasteful playboy watch shots. This is this is the full monty. This is hustler. This is they are zooming in on the dial and like close ups on how the applied indices are placed. And it is the watch version of the watch. Of the full meat and potatoes. Well, it's like the Club International of watches. That's exactly what this is.
Vic00:02:04I don't even know what that is, really.
JVL00:02:06You know, I don't I don't I'm sorry. I cannot get it up anymore for normal. Where you have the whole watch is on the video and you can see it's not enough for you.
Vic00:02:16It's not enough for you anymore. It's just the band. They tell you. The bracelet. This is what they tell you. It starts. I'm sorry. I need the detail.
JVL00:02:24And you gotta ratchet it up. Do you know what? Do you know what I need? I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna. What I need to see is how the execution of the hands is. I've become a real hands guy, the handset, and I want to get really down close that I can see at what point the edge on the side of the hands breaks down. I want to zoom in like four hundred looks so intrigued.
Sonny00:02:46Well, I just don't understand. So like I when you're when you're looking at the digital numbers, click over. Is that what you're talking about here? Like on your time on your Iron Man time? Like how it goes from a Cassio with three? I don't.
JVL00:03:02I don't quite understand the so this show is responsible for a number of wonderful things happening in the world. We have brought people together. People listen to the show have married one another before better show or had babies. I am Godfather to a child of a listener of this show. Hey, Tom, that's that's a terrifying and I don't think we've caused any divorces yet. But it may not be long because I have a buddy listener of the show who was one of these, you know, kind of always interested in watches, but not enough to like get up off the sofa and do it. And I talked him into buying a watch. This is now maybe ten months ago. I believe he's now on his tenth watch.
Vic00:03:53Oh, my gosh.
JVL00:03:54And he's the one who sent me this this this watch porn of what I'm going to I'm going to tell you. Boys now will eventually be called in the Seiko lore as the Baby Birch series, and he's going to an authorized dealer to pick one of these up two weeks from now. He's on the wait list, and I do believe it's possible that his wife could leave him over the watches and it will be 100 percent my fault.
Sonny00:04:14I also deserved anybody who buys ten watches has a has a problem that probably bleeds into other parts.
JVL00:04:20Maybe it's only six watches.
Sonny00:04:22It's a reflection of well, he deserves it. He's a great guy. He deserves these watches. He deserves to get divorced. What are the price ranges? Can we ask this?
Vic00:04:31We don't know who this is. You're not mentioning the name. So I think it's safe to say what are the what is the what when you buy six watches? I'm sorry.
JVL00:04:38He listens to the show. And for all I know, his wife listens to and we're not gonna we don't need to go any further than this.
Vic00:04:43Are we talking about three, four or five figures? No, nothing in the five figures.
JVL00:04:50Okay. Nothing even touching the five figures. It's not like he just bought a Piaget. No, no, no, he's buying very affordable watches. Watches. How many swatches does he have? Yeah, none of those. Felipe.
Sonny00:05:01Anyway, how are you boys? What's going on?
Vic00:05:03Uh, fine. Sonny, what's going on with you? I think I wanna become a pepper guy.
Sonny00:05:10Like, you know how watches, how watches is JBL's thing? Like I wanna, I wanna like really get into the world of like pepper grinders and like unique peppercorns. I find myself getting very bored. Not growing peppers like Victorino? Not hot peppers like me.
Vic00:05:23No, no, no, not like, no, no, no, not like, not like, uh, pepper. Ghost pepper making your own. Not like chili pepper. Not like chili pepper. Not like chili pepper.
Sonny00:05:28Chili peppers.
Vic00:05:29Not like, no, no, no, no. I mean like. I just had some the other day.
Sonny00:05:32It's still good. I mean like salt and pepper pepper. Oh. Like the pepper that you put on a salad or whatever, right?
JVL00:05:37Yeah.
Sonny00:05:38Sort of like multicolored peppercorn. Like I want, I want, I want, I wanna like, I bet there's a whole subculture of like people who, uh, you know, create peppercorn mixes and are like, oh my God, you would never believe what's going on with the Romanian three this year. Are you? And then, and then, and then they have like probably like $5,000 grinders.
JVL00:05:58Well, I was gonna ask, are you more interested in the, the, the horticultural aspect of this or the technological aspect? Both. Both. Because I'm gonna go out on a limb right now and say the best pepper grinders in the world are probably made in Germany.
Sonny00:06:11Yeah. 100%. I don't doubt that for a second.
Vic00:06:14You know, it's funny also, um, like, but it would be like weird brands. Like for example, we had a, a pepper mill that it was, it was a medium sized, it was Peugeot, like the car maker. Ooh. They do cars. Yeah.
JVL00:06:28Bang. And all of a sudden bang. That's weird. Now we used to have this in the world. Do you remember when Yamaha made pianos, guitars, saxophones, uh, and, uh, engines, right? You could get like a Yamaha make great motorcycles. There was a, there was a, yeah, you know, before you could buy Hyundai's, uh, the automobiles, they were a PC maker. So you, you know, people would own Hyundai PCs here in, in America, it was like weird for Samsung to become an appliance brand. Yes. Yes. I know what you mean.
Vic00:07:03Um, Mitsubishi Mitsubishi. Mm-hmm uh, they used to make airplanes for only one pilot and sometimes it would only go one way.
JVL00:07:08And you know, my favorite of all these is sob who made cars. Yeah. And one fighter. Yeah. The fighter.
Vic00:07:17A jet.
JVL00:07:18A jet.
Vic00:07:19Well, there was the gripping and the, and the gripping.
JVL00:07:20Yeah.
Vic00:07:21The gripping.
Sonny00:07:22Well, that's how Tony Scott got the, uh, got the top gun job. He like his, his. His sob ad. Oh. Uh, he, he did, he did a sob ad that was like, look at this great car. It's just like this fighter jet that the company also makes. Oh, that's good. And like, and that's how, that's how he wound up getting the, uh, the top gun job.
Vic00:07:40Yeah. You know what?
JVL00:07:42I think I remember that ad and it's a hot ad. It is a hot ad. If you like fighter planes. I wanted to buy a sob. I loved those eighties styled sobs cause they were so bizarrely shaped. Very bizarre. Very distinct. I just thought they were hot.
Vic00:07:52I was, there was nothing like them. It was like the sob 900.
Sonny00:07:54Was it called the 900? They looked like, uh, they looked like a, um, a boxier version of like the Porsche 911.
Vic00:08:01Yes. Yeah. It had very sharp curves. Like, you know, it would just come to a, it would just be like this cut. Uh, our friend, uh, Chris Caldwell used to have the sob. Do you remember this story? Uh, it was an old red sob. Uh, and, uh, one morning he saw that it was not in his driveway. Do you remember this? No. And he went look and he's like, oh my gosh, the sob's not there. And he saw it. It was not like one block away, just sitting in the middle of the road. Uh, somebody had tried a car jacket, but it was a stick.
JVL00:08:31It must've been like, and then they're like, oh, automatic, the original, uh, anti-theft device. That's right.
Sonny00:08:42That's right. That's right. So what's going on, uh, in my, my world, uh, this, this week is that, uh, one of my son, my three, one of my three year olds, uh, son's friends, uh, tried to murder him at the pool. Ooh. Tried to try to just, uh. Yeah. They were, they were, you know, it was, so we were in the, we're in the kiddie pool,
Vic00:08:58right? The parents waiting on the side of the pool, watching their friends. And waiting for you to handle it yourself, Sonny?
Sonny00:09:01Well, so no, so we're, we're, we're, we're sitting out, we're sitting on the, on the side of the pool. It's the kiddie pool, you know? So it's like a foot deep. Right. Uh, and they're just, they're kind of rough housing as usual. And I'm sitting like, I'm sitting next to a parent who is not involved with either. It's not, you know, not the other kid's parent, but, and she's like getting agitated. She's like, you know, they're, they're, I'm just like, ah, they're just rough housing. They're just rough housing. You know, this is what they do. And then like, as I'm, as I'm like explaining all of this away, the other kid, uh, grabs my son and like pulls his head underwater. Oh, just like forcing it. It's like forcing it under the water. And uh, we both leap into the pool to, to, uh, to stop the, the other mom actually beat me there by half a step. Uh, but.
Vic00:09:48Was one of the persons who leapt in. Beside you with the parents.
Sonny00:09:52And then, and then from the other side of the pool, the other, the other, the like mom of this kid also like jumps in. So like three parents converge, uh, in about a three second span. Um, but it was like, it was, it was, it was just like, it was, it was wild how quickly it goes from like, ah, kind of fun to like, oh no, there's somebody's going to drown.
Vic00:10:12Uh, was, was the kid just a horse around not thinking or was it like, ah, I'm going to
Sonny00:10:17drown you. They were just, they were just messing around. I mean, they were, they were, they were playing. It was not, it was, he was not like, I'm going to murder my friend. It was just like, ah, you know, we're tackling each other. Scary. I think, I don't know. Maybe, maybe this kid is like, uh, the, the Ezra Miller character from, we need to talk
JVL00:10:33about Kevin, you know, did the teenage lifeguard blow her in annoyance at you?
Sonny00:10:40No, no. So the, the, the guy who was watching the guy who was watching the kids is, uh, or who was so, you know, the, the, the, uh, lifeguards rotate, you know, they go from, oh, it's the
JVL00:10:50night's pool. Right? So they have priests as the lifeguard.
Sonny00:10:53Well, yeah, it's, uh, it was actually, uh, the Pope was there and he was blessing the water. Um, uh, but so the kids, the kids like rotate around, but the one who was in the, the, the kids pool, uh, watching them is the lifeguard that my wife and I refer to as the cool lifeguard. He like throws footballs with the kids and like play and he just watched it all happen. He just, he was just, he was just having a great time. He was like, oh, this is awesome.
JVL00:11:16He's six years older than all the other lifeguards.
Sonny00:11:19No. I don't think he, I mean, they're all, they're all like 18, they're all like 16 to 19. I don't know. It's, uh, they could, they're, they're as young as like 12 or possibly as old as 30. I don't, they're like all those ages are the same to me now, you know, a lot of lifeguards,
Vic00:11:34I don't know about where you are, but, uh, around here and you know, I mean, pieces have been written about this. I remember in the post and other places where lifeguards used to be, hold on. Lifeguards used to be, um, you know, like a high school job, uh, or in the summer and now it's Eastern Europeans.
Sonny00:11:50Yeah.
JVL00:11:51Cheaper labor. Would that be the same down there too, or no, they come over.
Sonny00:11:55No, no. All the, all the kids at my polar, like Texas, Dallas, say the Eastern European lifeguards,
JVL00:12:01much more pliant than the American teenage lifeguards, much less interested in flexing their authority and more interested in seeing how they can, uh, get in on this lifestyle.
Vic00:12:13Well, you know, it's again, I remember reading the piece in the post, they all have to live together. I mean, so, you know, big parties on the weekend and stuff like that, you know, anyway, how
JVL00:12:25are you Victorino?
Vic00:12:27Speaking of the Victoria, speaking of angels and demons, speaking of weekends, uh, so Kate's back, but over the weekend she brought the kids up to Connecticut, uh, where they go away for a couple of weeks. That's right. It was just me. Uh, but I wouldn't say I was alone. Domination victories. I was going to say I was kept company by Gandhi, Napoleon. Catherine, the great, uh, you know, I always, sometimes when I play civilization, I start off saying, you know, at this time it's going to be different. It's going to be like, I'm just going to focus on science, build the ship, build the spaceship. And in the end, even if it's supposed to be like a small empire, I just take over everything anyway. And I just can't resist. You got to use the piece. You got to use these units.
JVL00:13:09The truth of their nature is that they want to be ruled.
Vic00:13:13Uh, yes. Also if you just sit around and wait for the other civilization. To catch up, then you know, you need to leverage your technological edge. That's right. That's right. You, you, if, if they got, you know, um, long swords and you got muskets, well, guess what? It's time to use the musket, you know, rifleman, you know, whatever. So, uh, that was nice. The only, uh, thing is I get very excited about finally getting to eat whatever it is I want to eat. And in the end, I always feel awful that I, you know, ate. I'm like, ah, so I had the octopus. I know I did. I did. I had Popeye's, uh, the three piece, uh, deal with like mashed potatoes and coleslaw. I love the guy. I love coleslaw. A lot of people don't. I love coleslaw. Uh, ate the whole thing.
Sonny00:14:05Disgusting.
Vic00:14:06I love it. I know. I'm like the only one.
Sonny00:14:09Like my kids don't like it. I, I, I feel like I'm alone. I'm glad to hear JBL also grow coleslaw to be absolutely disgusting. What?
JVL00:14:18What? What in there is good? Oh my gosh. Cabbage.
Sonny00:14:22Carrots. Here's a bunch of trash. Here's a bunch of trash. Eat this.
Vic00:14:26Oh no.
Sonny00:14:27It can be delicious.
Vic00:14:28Put it in a shredder. I'm not talking about like when you go to the diner and they give you the little cup of that. Although that's good in its own way too. It's tingly.
Sonny00:14:34Did you get the court size? You got the court size.
Vic00:14:36I know I didn't get the court size though. I'm not an animal. You know how many calories are the court size of mashed potatoes?
Sonny00:14:42You know that? You aren't an animal.
Vic00:14:44Hold on. Fact check. Uh, okay. So, um, you know what else I want? I went to, uh, I went to the TNR cafe, the new Republic cafe. How was it? Uh, it was, it was great. Uh, I got the Leon weasel to your burger. It was sorry. Uh, no, uh, I just got Chinese humor. This is very niche. This is very niche humor.
Sonny00:15:08That's right. You have to not only know what the TNR cafe is, you have to remember what TNR was. Right, right, right, right. The Chuck Rosen chocolate milkshake. And you gotta remember who Leon weasel tier was.
Vic00:15:17No, Chuck Rosen. Chuck Lane. Sorry. I'm getting all this thing about Hannah Rosen. Uh. Chuck Lane Club. Right. The buying an art burger. The Chuck Lane Club sandwich. That's good. Uh, so, uh, that, that, that was it. The only thing, uh, I was gonna say you probably, you guys, cuz you still have little kids, uh, probably haven't been in situations where, you know, you, because you could eat whatever you want. Cuz I'm wondering if you could, what would you get? What would you cook for yourself? Like, oh, I have a whole weekend. I'm alone. What are you gonna do? You're gonna cook. You're gonna go out and what are you, if you go out, what, or are you just gonna be like, I don't care. Simple. I don't, I'm just gonna pick. Oh, do you have any? Cuz in my mind, I already have it lined up everything I want to eat.
JVL00:15:57I sure as hell wouldn't cook. Yeah.
Vic00:16:01Oh, you, you wouldn't cook.
JVL00:16:02Yeah. And I, I, I would just eat pizza. And then this place up here by me called the pasta shop, which is, was run by my buddy,
Guest00:16:11Sergio.
JVL00:16:12Oh, Sergio. Sergio. You know, Sergio. Sergio. Struck a friendship. And I, I, I don't actually know the guy. But, um, but he's, uh, he's, uh, you know, he's got some good gabagool. They make their pasta fresh every morning and they make all their sauces and it's just, oh, it's just simple. Like you show up like, yeah, I'd like some, uh, some amount of going there as a matter. It's just the greatest stuff ever. It's simple. It's delicious. And I would just have that and a pizza from one of the 35 amazing pieces. You did you notice up in north Jersey, Victorino, there are no chain pizza places because why would anybody go there?
Vic00:16:48Right?
JVL00:16:49No Papa John's. Same thing.
Vic00:16:51There's no Paisano's. Same thing with same thing in Tom's over every other strip, every strip mall. And there are plenty of strip malls, little ones. They all have pizza. They all have a little pizza place and it's not the same as the other ones.
JVL00:17:02Every one of these things, if you plop them down Adams Morgan, there'll be lines around the block. You know why? Because it's be a sensation and people will be writing Washingtonian pieces about them. Oh my gosh. It's so amazing. Instead DC gets and pizza. Can you imagine? If you remember and pizza, can you imagine trying to sell that in New Jersey? Yeah.
Sonny00:17:23What was that JBL? What was that? What was, what was the, uh, the like instant pasta place?
JVL00:17:27And the, the instant pasta, the German place that you liked the German place Vapiano Vapiano Vapiano. I thought you were gonna say Bertucci's.
Sonny00:17:35Oh, Vapiano is so much better than any pizza you can get in New Jersey. Come on. Come on. He's just trolling. Honestly. He's trolling. He's gaslighting. It's not gaslighting. It's just a fact. I mean, if these places were any good, they would be chains. Chains. If these places were actually good, they would be chains and they would have taken over launder money taken over the rest of the, the places.
JVL00:17:55These are look, a pizza joint is the Italian version of a car wash.
Sonny00:18:01I don't know what that means.
JVL00:18:02I mean, it's a, a cash business through which it is incredibly easy to launder large sums of money on a weekly basis.
Sonny00:18:09So you're saying that, so you're saying that the Italian restaurants in New Jersey, I'm
JVL00:18:13just saying my people got a business to run, eh?
Sonny00:18:16Oh, pretty pro this could be a top 10 problematic episode. Oh my gosh.
Vic00:18:21Okay. Sonny, by the way, feel it coming. What about you? If you're alone, what are you gonna eat?
JVL00:18:25I don't know.
Sonny00:18:26I mean, it's, it's interesting cuz I have not had this dilemma in a long time in years. I know. I mean like literally I can't remember the last time I had more than like, I, I mean, I literally cannot remember the like, and when I say this dilemma, I mean like this dilemma at home, you know, sometimes I go, I go, when we went to Vegas, right? Like, like I, that, that's probably what I would do. I would actually just go to like outstandingly nice restaurants and eat by myself at the bar. It used to be weird. That's what I would do. But now it's very common to eat alone. It's so sad.
Guest00:19:00Eating alone is the best eating here's you know, what's, you know, what's the best
JVL00:19:04if there are no other people around, but if there are other people you have to hear and see.
Sonny00:19:08No. You know what the best things in life are. Yes, Sonny. Going to restaurants by yourself, going to the movies by yourself, uh, and, and, uh, that's it. Those are the two, those are the only two good things in life going, going places by yourself.
JVL00:19:22That's it.
Sonny00:19:23I, if we, but I do, I mean, I don't know. I like, I genuinely, I, you know, every, uh, every, every once in a while Beth will go out of town. So I will have like a couple of meals to myself. So the, and I'll, I'll go and get like, uh, you know, uh, a two inch thick ribeye and make that right. Like that's what I'll do.
Vic00:19:40So you will cook for yourself if you're home.
Sonny00:19:41Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, if, if, if she, I don't take both the kids to a restaurant, I'd rather, I'd rather blow my brains out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.
Vic00:19:51I wait till they go to bed and then I make my own. You can take your time. It's nice. A little late dinner. We used to have later dinners. I remember that. That's right. The only thing that I wish I had, and I didn't get a chance to, uh, have a shellfish. I love shellfish. Speaking of which over the weekend where the crawdad sing, which I sing is, uh, I assume it's about singing crawfish.
Sonny00:20:08That's the movie. Yes. Uh, it's actually, uh, it's a kid's movie. It's cartoon.
Vic00:20:12Oh, great. Uh, came in at the box office with 17.3 million. Yeah. Behind minions. The rise of grew with 26.8 million and in first place, again, Thor love and thunder with a whopping 46.6 million. Box office thoughts. I only know by the way, I only know where the crawdad sing because that was our wives. That was a book for their club. That sounds about right.
Sonny00:20:38Uh, uh, Thor love and thunder was in first, but it fell 68%, which is the, the largest drop for an MCU movie ever. Uh, now the, uh, since, since the great box office reset, uh, the MCU has had, I think, I think it's three worst drops of all time. This eternals and, uh, Dr. Strange multiverse madness that Morbius doesn't count. Morbius doesn't count. Morbius doesn't count. Morbius is not MCU. Technically it's Sony. Uh, it's spider spider verse. That's what that is. Um, uh, so, you know, it's, it's the, it's the third, uh, Marvel MCU movie since, uh, the great pandemic reset to get a B plus or worse cinema score. There was only, only one other MCU movie before this got below an a minus. Uh, so, I mean, I, I think the, the, the whole thing it's bad. I think, I think the MCU is in, I don't know about trouble. I don't know if trouble's right word, cuz this movie's still gonna end up grossing. 800, 900 million dollars is gonna make a ton of money, but, uh, you know, it's not, it's not looking good for them. I actually, I actually went to see where the crawdad sing, uh, cuz we were, I was talking about it on another podcast. We should have done that episode. How was it? We should have done that for an episode.
Vic00:22:01The three of us. Is it, is it, is it, were there any guys in the theater?
Sonny00:22:05Maybe there was, I think one other, there was one guy with a group of women, uh, unclear if he was a husband. A husband. Or a friend. Other. Um, uh.
Vic00:22:19That's where I would go. I, I'd go there just to say, oh, here are my, I might, I might meet someone. Yeah. I'll go to where the crawdad sing.
Sonny00:22:27I, uh, uh, anyway, it's, it's, I don't know, I don't even really know how to review that sort of movie. It's such a fucking chick flick, uh, like just, it's okay, but, um, uh, what is, there's
Vic00:22:40a reason why this is a subscriber based podcast app, but go ahead.
Sonny00:22:44Yeah. Um, but the, uh, but the, the, the other thing is look, uh, look at top gun Maverick dropped another job, dropped just 20%.
Vic00:22:53It's yeah.
Sonny00:22:54It was in fourth place. Hang in there. Huge box office, Tom Cruise, saving theaters, et cetera, et cetera. So, and Elvis going over a hundred million. I thought that movie was going to be a, an enormous bomb. I thought that movie was going to gross like $30 million total. I'm telling you. So I'm, I was totally wrong about that.
Vic00:23:10It's all, it's all, it's not Tom Hanks. It's Austin Butler and his performance.
Sonny00:23:15Austin Butler is very good. He's very good as Elvis people. The kids love him.
Vic00:23:18Somebody, somebody, uh, you know, posted on Twitter, whatever, a, uh, a clip from the movie, which obviously is not going to last long. It'll get taken down, but it was like from Japan or whatever, but still it was like his big performance in the, in the Elvis comeback special. And it's really something, uh, he's good. He's really good. But again, it's distracting to see tied out. I never thought I'd say that about Tom Hanks. I love Tom Hanks, uh, movies, but it was weird to, you know, him as the. In that fat suit and, and, and, you know, spliced into the rest of this, uh, performance and it, it's a great performance though, uh, JVL thoughts, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not worried
JVL00:23:57about the MCU because what has happened is, uh, I don't know if you guys know this, but, but studios have a button that says good movies and when they want to make good movies, they push the button. Oh, they gotta hit that button. And I think what's happened is just Kevin Feige has decided for the last few months, not to push the good boom. This is Netflix said this right when Netflix had its great correction in the stock dropped 70%. Uh, uh, I forget which of the Ted's, it was one of the two Ted's said that, uh, you know, they're gonna really focus on making better movies now. I thought, oh, oh, is that how it's gonna be?
Vic00:24:35You just, oh, they're gonna open up the button and start putting, they thought, you know,
JVL00:24:39we don't need to push the good movie button yet. We can wait until we have a big setback financially. Then we'll press our good movie button.
Sonny00:24:48It was very funny to watch the discussion about Netflix's subscriber numbers because they, uh, uh, they lost subscribers for the second quarter in a row. Now you would think bad sign overall, but they less few, they lost fewer than people thought because stranger things, which was split over two seasons or two, two months, there were two episode dumps, um, kept people around, kept people around longer. So, uh, I mean, I mean, I, I, I, Netflix is in trouble too. I like Netflix is losing subscribers. HBO max continues to be the best of the services. Hulu is like super underrated. Yeah.
Vic00:25:26It's like doing better than Disney plus, right? Hulu is owned by Disney plus.
Sonny00:25:31Hulu and Disney. Yeah. So Disney owns Hulu and Disney plus, uh, and ESPN plus, but like ESPN plus is a weird, but Hulu is like outshining Disney plus now, but Hulu, Hulu is, I mean like tons and tons of people watch Hulu. It does, it does really good numbers. Uh, and it, it, it helps that it was one of the early streaming companies. So lots of people say it had, it had an early mover advantage to it. Um, but on top of that, it just has really good programming. I mean, all the Hulu on FX stuff is great. What we do in the shadows. I'm watching that right now. I love it. Um, I am tempted.
Vic00:26:00I I'm so tempted to just cancel Netflix cause it's like 15, $16 I think a month now.
Sonny00:26:06I spent $20 a month on Netflix. Is that how much it costs? I spent $20. Well, I have the, I have the 4k, so you probably spend like 17.
JVL00:26:13Yeah. Black and white, you know, real projection, the add tier Victorino, you can just do commercials for $9.
Vic00:26:20I wouldn't do that. Yes. No, I do that for, uh, so, uh, but the only reason why I'm keeping it out is I suspect, for example, like I didn't even finish stranger things, but I suspect, for example, we'll probably do the gray man next week.
Sonny00:26:32Yeah.
Vic00:26:33That's the only, there's nothing in theaters.
JVL00:26:35Can I ask you guys about ads? Because this is something that Hulu, the ads on Hulu are horrible. So I, I will pay. I will pay almost any amount of money not to have ads on any device. So like the Kindle where the only ad is when you lock your screen and that's a lot of money. It's like $25, I think, to get the ad free Kindle versus the normal Kindle and the ads never touch anything except for the lock screen. And every time I bought a Kindle, I have paid the money to be ad free, uh, for Hulu. I pay the Hulu's a lot of money to get rid of the ads and I pay it even though I hardly ever watch Hulu. Um, and I, you know, even so, uh, flashes baseball team uses an app for all team communications. So I'm, I'm roped into using this app and it's cluttered up with ads unless you pay them $2 a month and I just pay them as a matter of course. And the reason is because I find, I find ads offensive because what they're doing is they are commodifying my attention and I feel as though my attention is one of the most valuable things I have. And I don't want to give it to these companies.
Sonny00:27:47Is that wrong? It's not. See, it's, it's not even that for me, it, it's just, it messes up the user experience. Oh, sure. I like, I, I, I pay for the ad free version of Hulu as well because, uh, so for instance, I don't pay for, I don't pay for AMC plus, right? Uh, and I'm watching, um, I'm watching better call Saul right now. Better call Saul is in its last season, which, and I'm watching it via the AMC app because it's actually easier to watch on the AMC app than it is to watch. Why am I terrible cable just the office. If you ever get the option, if you sign up for spectrum and they're like, do you want the apple TV or do you want a cable box? You should get an apple TV anyway, but you should also get the cable box so you can do like regular cable box stuff like DVR shows and that sort of thing. Cause you can't DVR stuff on the, anyway, I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox here. But I, since there's only one show I'm watching on AMC, I just, I was like, I'm not, I'm not paying an extra five bucks a month for AMC plus. I'm just not doing it. I'm I'm just, I'll just sit here and I'll watch the commercials. And every Monday night when I'm watching better call Saul, I wanna put a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger every 15 minutes when there's like three minutes of ads, I'm just, I'm so I'm I hate it. I hate it so much. And like, so I, I also pay for, I pay I'm on, uh, a movie diary, essentially a like good reads, but for movies called letter box, right. And I signed up for, I signed up for the ad free version. I pay six bucks a year or whatever to get the ad, the unad free version. And every once in a while I'll log in, uh, on, uh, on my laptop and I won't be signed into my account. So I'll see all the ads. Yeah. And it's a nightmare. Yeah. I mean, they're just ads everywhere. It's like, it's impossible to scroll through scroll through stuff. Uh, so I mean, I, for me, it's not about like, I don't care about them tracking my dad. I don't care about them monopolizing my attention. I just don't like the user experience.
Vic00:29:39Well, the, the, the annoying thing on Hulu is they just run. The same ad over and over. So it's not like, it's not like, uh, when you're watching network television and it's a whole lineup of different ads and you know, everything is, but no, it's just the same ad over. And, and, uh, the one that I kept on seeing was, it's like, tell Congress to stay out of my phone and about, you know, um, uh, spam and phone and stuff like that. And, and it's this guy who is, you don't even want to look at the guy, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't like looking at this guy. It's like, you know how people, you just don't want to look at certain people. And it's like, ugh, I can't look at this. It's like an old man complaining on the phone about, you know, yeah, no, it's like this. And it was like, he's in his breakfast, like he's having breakfast and he's wearing his bath robe. And it's just gross. I'm just like, you know, enough and it's over and over. And plus it kept on interrupting the flow of the documentary we were watching for me.
JVL00:30:30Um, can I just say, this is Harry send is another bit of JVL Victorino.
Vic00:30:37How many of our listeners even know? Because I think that's just you and me. It's like, it's like for you. It's like you and me. It's like limp biscuit. Nobody knows what that means.
JVL00:30:45It's just you and me. Let me try to excavate this for people. There was circa 1999, an ad to TV ad for, I think Microsoft office, I was going to say Microsoft. Yeah. Like Microsoft office or Microsoft word ran TV ads. And it was about how, uh, how it empowers people to speak their minds in the, the guy in it is this guy named Harry. Who is a serial letter writer about all of the things that he hates and all of his gripes.
Vic00:31:18Right. He's a crank. He's a crank. He kind of reminded me of, he looked like Art Buchwald, but yeah.
JVL00:31:24And you know, at the end of the, he would say Harry, and then he hits the send send. But what was amazing about it is that, uh, this, this ad presented the character unironically. Yeah. So not as a like, ha ha ha, we're all laughing about it, but as a look. Yeah. Look at how our product can empower people. Yeah. And this was the dawn. This was the dawn of electronic mail. And Vic and I, as people who had to answer email, I answer both emails. And do you remember the real males from the cranks come decorated with stickers and crayons and lots and lots of writing. Yeah. We were opening mail from real world Harry's every single day. It was pre anthrax. Yeah. And so we would, we would joke.
Vic00:32:09Oh, I get another one letter from Harry over here. Yeah. No, but it was a thing. But now you can send, you know, it's so much easier than having to mail a letter. If you're a crank, you can just do this Harry send. Okay. So the, uh, the show, as many of you now know, we're talking about this week is a documentary on Hulu, uh, Victoria's secret angels and demons. You know, it's funny. I almost ended up streaming angels and demons.
JVL00:32:35I have that joke in my script too. Victorino.
Vic00:32:37No, I really did.
JVL00:32:38Tom Hanks. Why was he in this?
Vic00:32:40I thought this was a documentary. I see his face. I'm like, uh, I don't think this is it. And it's also, it might also be available on Hulu, which is the problem. But in any event, angels and demons, a Victoria's secret angels and demons saying this was, this was your idea. Um, how about a big boy review?
Sonny00:32:59Uh, so Victoria's secret angels and demons, three episode documentary series, uh, that is on Hulu. All three episodes came out at once. So you can go watch the whole thing right now. Um, uh, each episode is about an hour long, uh, which, you know, one, one problem with the series is that it's about 50% longer than it probably needs to be. Um, but the, uh, but, but what's interesting about this is that it's essentially two documentaries that only very briefly really dovetail with each other. Um, the first, the first documentary is about, uh, this guy, uh, what's his name? Less, less Wexner. Is that right? Am I, did I get that right? Yeah. Yeah. The guy who is like the king of shitty small retail shops, the guy who invented fast fashion,
JVL00:33:48the limited, right?
Sonny00:33:49Limited brands. So he's, he's the limited structure lane, Brian, uh, you know, learners, learners, that's right. Abercrombie and Fitch. And, uh, of course, Victoria's secret, which is why we are all here. Um, Victoria's secret was probably the biggest, most successful of these, at least in terms of cornering the market on its particular, uh, niche. I think one of the. I, I, at one point in the documentary, they talk about how 60% of all lingerie sales were Victoria's secret, something like that, some crazy, um, JBL, is that your phone?
JVL00:34:22You know, it is. I'm sorry.
Sonny00:34:24I will turn that off.
JVL00:34:25Just take it off this.
Sonny00:34:26You know who that is? Just take it off your desk.
JVL00:34:28It's fine.
Sonny00:34:29It's father Harrison. Yeah.
JVL00:34:31Tell him, tell him father Harrison. Stop texting me. Yeah. And, and you know, what's such annoying. He's texting me because he's flying to Scotland and he's texting me to say that he just got on a long haul. Flight. And he's got the entire road to himself. Wow.
Sonny00:34:43Good for him. Good for him.
Vic00:34:45I saw, by the way, on Twitter, I hate to switch gears in the middle of Victoria's secret to father Harrison, but, uh, that he was bragging about bringing eight books or six books or something like that. That should be enough for his trip. That would be enough for my trip.
Sonny00:34:57If I was away for six years, that's enough for your trip to the desert Island. You're going to die on when the airplane crashes, six books.
Vic00:35:05Okay. Well, we'll make it through. Continue please.
Sonny00:35:08Sunny. Uh, so the, the first. Documentary is essentially about the rise and fall of the brand of Victoria's secret. It's about the, the, uh, capturing of the market for lingerie for women. It's about the kind of revolutionizing of how you market it to women. It's about the, uh, rise of the supermodel and the, the change of the image and, uh, the, you know, the runway shows that were on CBS and all that, the super bowl ads crashing the internet, uh, you know, with the, the, the big super bowl. Uh, you know, uh, push to get people to go to the website, to watch the, the fashion show, et cetera, et cetera. And then the fall of that brand and how everything changed circa 2015, 16, 17. There's there's, there's a very interesting story here about changing tastes and how, and how the, the market for this product changed from a thing that men bought for women or a thing that women thought men wanted to a thing that women were buying, you know, for themselves and, you know, for what, whatever it, there's like a really interesting story
JVL00:36:09there. It's probably the least, the least interesting part of this entire thing.
Sonny00:36:13Well, so, well, so then there's a second documentary, there's a second documentary here, which is about Wexner and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And that is, I mean, like, I think I may have mentioned this on the show before, but there, there are like two conspiracy theories that you can tell me anything about. And I, I will believe basically any argument you could make. The first is the Las Vegas shooting Las Vegas shooting, like thousand people. Injured or whatever, like 800 people injured. And like, it's just some guy and he decided, I sure, I believe that I've nothing, nothing weird.
JVL00:36:49I would believe anything from aliens to Islamic terrorists, to frazzled drip on that.
Sonny00:36:54Anything I would believe, I would believe you could put together any story and that would, and the other one is Jeffrey Epstein. The other, the other one is Jeffrey Epstein and like, I mean, you know, we can, we can get into all, but like Jeffrey Epstein, I, there were, there were things in this documentary that. I did not know about Epstein one that, uh, Wexner had not only given him power of attorney, but had like funneled him $400 million or something like that over the years, um, enormous, enormous amounts of money. And also the insinuations that, uh, Wexner and, uh, Epstein were in a potentially homosexual relationship. Uh, you know, he couldn't have Wexner, couldn't have that exposed, but that's maybe how he
JVL00:37:33was. This is more crazy Larry than, uh, than, than homosexual.
Sonny00:37:36No, no. I mean, there, there are in the, in the, in the.
JVL00:37:39Okay. Go ahead.
Sonny00:37:41We'll get into it. In the, in the, in the deposition, the, the lawyer's like, so it's true that you and Mr. Wexner were in a, you know, were lovers or, and he's like, and, and, and Epstein is like, no, everybody denies it. I mean, every, for the record, and I don't want to get sued by Les Wexner here. He denies it. He says, it's not true.
JVL00:37:58It is weird how many people on camera say, I'm not saying their relationship was sexual.
Sonny00:38:04Well, no, but I mean, this is the documentary. The documentary is 100% trying to say. They had sex and he was being blackmailed by Jeffrey Epstein.
Vic00:38:13I mean, like that is like, it was such a, okay, go ahead.
Sonny00:38:15I, I didn't buy it at all, but that's not, that's not like a, that's not a, I'm not, I'm not reading anything into it. That's not even subtext. It's like the text of the picture. This is, you know, um, and then on top of that, on top of all that you have, you know, you have Epstein's relationships with everybody else, the Clintons, Trump, uh, bill Gates,
JVL00:38:33whatever, like all that, the bar family, bear Stearns, like he's, he's right. He's in the middle of everything. Yeah.
Sonny00:38:40And then on top of all that, you have like a CIA Masada angle where they moved this airplane company from Miami to Columbus and it was involved with Iran Contra and, uh, some of Epstein's, uh, Epstein's wife's, uh, pair, uh, parents were like in the Masada and higher ups and in Israel and like, there's, there's like this whole, and I like, I don't know how much of this I, it makes any sense. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not qualified to judge any of it, but like, again, because it's Jeffrey Epstein, I will believe just about anything that you tell me about him. And like, I, I, I like, I find, I find it all, I find it all in insanely compelling. And the only place that this, these two documentaries really intersect is in 2016, 2017, when Epstein is, uh, when, when a Epstein is arrested, but also be in the midst of me too, which is when the big shift in. In Victoria's secret and how it was seen and who was buying lingerie from where happened. Like these two things happen at roughly the same time. And it's like, it's like the, it's like two lines in a chart meeting and making an X. And then again, they're off on their separate, separate ways. So I mean, I like, I, I think there are two, it's, it's a slightly frustrating show for me because there are two very interesting stories here. One of which is like a pretty standard business story. The other, which is an insane conspiracy theory that could have been put together by a YouTube crank and, but that's also like, as JBL said, that's actually like much, much more interesting. It's it's, it's more, it's more fascinating. I don't have any idea how true any of it is.
Vic00:40:22I don't, I didn't buy, I didn't buy any of it. I thought it was ridiculous, but it was mostly because I was annoyed by the, uh, they kept on going to, uh, one, uh, uh, guy this, this, this, you know, who I'm tight. He was so, so gross to look at. And he, apparently. Apparently he's some sort of reporter or something. He looked, he looked like a werewolf, which looks like a Hobbit. He looked like a, what are you talking about?
Sonny00:40:45It looks like a Hobbit. Yes. He's right below his eyes and he did no, no, no, no, no, no, a clue.
Vic00:40:51And that's who you're talking about. Oh my gosh. And he's like, ah, you know, the, the connection with Israel and, you know, gay Masada, just say neocons. Okay. Is it the neocons? Are they the ones responsible? Just say it. You know, we all know what you're thinking, you know, Epstein, you know, Wexner. Okay. Okay. We get it. But, uh, just, you know, I was like project for the new American centuries and there's something. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And PNAC, you know, and I said, I just didn't like actually looking at the guy. I just found it after looking at, you know, Heidi Klum and, and, or Giselle Bunchett and all of a sudden, and this guy comes on, I was like, you know, I mean, it was the worst. Okay. So, uh, JVL, what did you think? Unless, unless Sonny has more on the, the movie, but that's the show.
Sonny00:41:36That's the show. It was, it was very, very watchable. Again. I just think it's kind of a mess. I feel like it needed it, it, it, it just needed to be two separate things. Yeah.
Vic00:41:44And I, yeah, that's right. And I think I would have preferred if it were just one longish documentary versus three episodes.
JVL00:41:52Yeah. So I, I mean, I will sign up for just about any documentary about a business because business stories, business biographies are to me anyway, fascinating, um, because every business is, is interesting and unique. And if you can get close enough to it, uh, it's, it's interesting, right? Learning how widget company X wound up succeeding in making widgets. It's an interesting story and the entire learner brands, uh, from, you know, from limited to express and creating a sort of cradle to grave where he's graduating people up through the brand lines. Uh, and he comes from Columbus, Ohio. I would do a whole documentary just on that. It was great. Uh, I'm there for it. I thought that part of it moved really well. The Jeffrey Epstein part of the story, fascinating, great, uh, not told as well because nobody knows what's really going on. It's a lot of conjecture. I, the only part that frustrated me a little bit was what I thought was the least interesting part was the cultural commentary about like the changing and Victoria's secret, because the least interesting part about Victoria's secret is the cultural side of it. The most interesting part is the business. Right? The, the business of how this thing happened and how they continue to expand and how they, how they moved from catalog to brick and mortar and all that stuff is fascinating. The, the idea that, that they created the character of Victoria after the fact. So Victoria's secret is launched as a catalog. Uh, the catalog does its own. It is a little bit like the sharper image or a hammock or slum, or it, it does a, it's a catalog business. Um, and then less Waxner goes and buys it as the catalog is on hard times and decides he's then going to branch into brick and mortar retail sales, cuz he's a retail guy and he knows that. And he creates a character with a full backstory of Victoria and everything they do is based upon this idea of like, well, what, what would Victoria think about this design choice? And she, she came from a, a British, she's a Brit and her dad was in business and taught her all about business, but her mother was a feisty French woman with a healthy disrespect for the English. Yeah.
Sonny00:44:13And that's where.
JVL00:44:14It's very J Peter. Yes. It is very J Peter. But what's, what's fascinating about this is that the company then disappears Victoria the minute it hits upon the angels as its brand and Victoria is never mentioned again. It's as if the Peterman catalog simply disappeared J Peterman, right? That is, it's so quintessentially American. And it made me think, made me think about, I, I don't, you guys, I don't know how recently you have read Andy's, uh, land of Lincoln, our friend, Andy Ferguson's book about, uh, Lincoln, which is my favorite book that Andy's written. Maybe my favorite thing that Andy's written. And there's a chapter in it where he talks about a tour that he took as a child, uh, where they drove the Lincoln heritage tour and in his family drove from spot to spot, uh, with, you know, in ver all across the Midwest going to learn about, you know, they'd land here. This was Lincoln's birthplace. And this is where Lincoln felled his first tree and that, that, that, that, that, that, and Andy is writing about this for the book and is holding this Lincoln heritage trail up as like the serious way America used to do history. And so he goes out to find the guy who put this thing together and he finally tracks him down. He goes out and he sits down in this guy's living room and says to him, this is, you know, this was, this is really how it was all supposed to be like, what was the inspiration for this? And he was like, the inspiration is the American petroleum Institute, but it gave us a lot of money so we could convince people to have a reason to drive around in the summer and buy gas for their cars. And that's, that's what all of this stuff is, right? That's what the character of Victoria is. That's what the angels are. That's what the CBS runway show is, and it's fascinating in an American way. And that's why I could watch five hours just about the entire limited corporation.
Sonny00:46:15Well, can I, so I agree, I agree that there's like a big, and there was a documentary about Abercrombie and Fitch not too long ago that also touches on some of this. Um, but the, uh, I, I wanna push back slightly on the idea that you can separate culture and the cultural commentary from the business, because I, I do think that the, the, an interesting, like, I think the key part of the fall part of the rise and fall is Victoria's secret loses control of the cultural narrative completely. You know, they go from, they go from determining what is, what is hot, what is attractive to now having to compete with, uh, all of these other brands that are like, we want diverse body sizes. We want, you know, different, we, it can't, everybody can't look the same. We need, you know, there's not one beauty there's older, but, and like, and, and, and
Vic00:47:05they clearly indecisively, they clearly indecisively lose this battle and the moment they lose
Sonny00:47:15it and aren't able to reorient and reposition the brand is done. And I think, I think I, like they, you, I think you could make the argument right now that the brand is kaput.
JVL00:47:27They don't lose this battle in a way, which is different from the way every other cultural hegemon has lost every battle. The internet came alive, right? Vogue is no longer the arbiter of what is cool because Instagram exists, right? And this is, you know, this is the problem of the internet and it's the problem for everything. It's the problem for Vogue. It's the problem for, uh, television is a problem for CBS. It's the problem for Victoria's secret. You can't do mass market anymore, right? And that the, the whole, like, you know, people's tastes changing, I think is a red herring for what is really happening, which is the breakdown of mass mass cultures into niches. Like everything is niches, right? And, uh, that's why I, I just find that stuff to be the least interesting now, like a business story about like, yeah, like the models about changing how, you know, the idea that when they first started models didn't want to do Victoria's secret, because that was where you went when you were too old for Vogue and just wanted to get paid. And that's why they got Stephanie Seymour because Stephanie Seymour was over the hill in modeling years and, uh, but was ready to just cash in. And, and make a lot of money, but then that changed because they sort of invented Instagram before there was Instagram, you know, I don't know. I was, I was fascinated about all the business stuff, all of which is I'm also fascinated by all the Jeffrey Epstein stuff and the way he is in the middle of this. I went and ordered, uh, the Epstein book spider, whose author is featured prominently in this just on the strength of the, I can't wait to read it. Don't, don't forget any, uh, a convenient murder by our friend, Dan Halpern.
Vic00:49:05Oh, did Halpern.
JVL00:49:06Oh, that's right.
Vic00:49:07He did. I'll have to read it.
JVL00:49:09I'll have to go and read Dan's book on this too. I'll go order that after we're done the show. Um, but it's, it's fascinating. Right. Isn't it? Are you guys, aren't you? Victorino.
Vic00:49:20I was, I, I, I, I just thought it was, I thought the whole thing was a drag because I, I, I wish it was just more about the models and I was expecting more of a porno and instead it was like, I don't know what this business. They can talk. I want to see this guy's face is not, you know, what, what, less Wexner not doing it for me, you know? But no, the actual story is very interesting. Um, I, I, and I agree with Jonathan and it was re the, the idea that, oh, you know, they, they were too late to this thing. And so by the time Victoria's secret decided that, you know, they should feature, for example, plus sizes and trans models, it was too late. No, they did that in the beginning and still would be bad for Victoria's secret. I mean, it's just like, imagine that, you know what I mean? That's not, that's not them. That's not them. Now there are other places I went lean, you know, and there, there were other things, other places will do this. And it's like the, the story is that Victoria's secret was somehow undone by Rihanna's Rihanna's fashion show, you know? But it's, it's, it, I find the whole thing sort of infuriating in the sense how body positivity destroyed Victoria's secret, because it's like, I don't know, do we actually want to see who we are versus what we can be? And I feel like Americans sort of society is fixated on, on the one hand. You must destroy and defeat, uh, uh, you know, obesity and take away these things for you to like sugary drinks and all these things. And so obesity, bad, wait, obesity, good. Let's celebrate it and get you on the cover of the athletic catalog. So which is it? You know? And it's, I find, I find it as bad as like building extra wide seats on planes or whatever to accommodate our largeness. We, you know, I mean, it's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. That sounds amazing.
JVL00:51:00We need extra wide seats on airplanes. I see this.
Vic00:51:04All these large people. And I'm like, this is not good. We shouldn't be making things bigger. We should be aiming to get everybody smaller, you know? So I mean, and, and, you know, there's this sort of the snarky line of, Oh, you know, um, they only, you know, they work out or they diet just to, you know, just to please men. Well, look, I work out. So my wife doesn't leave me. You know what I mean? I'm just going to let myself go and celebrate my largeness. That would be a really big plus I would die in my health, you know, but there are health concerns here. So I don't know. I just found that. Infuriating. The Epstein stuff. Again, I feel like this is an entirely different show and what happened with the nanny who was held at 16 hours and she couldn't leave. It was weird.
JVL00:51:45I just like what's happening here, but it was spotty. I felt like where was all the hidden cam footage on that stuff. That's really like we need on the quadrants, Epstein stuff, a documentary about both Victoria's secret and Jeffrey Epstein. The features, no nudity is like what I'm sorry. It didn't do.
Vic00:52:02What are we even doing? It was tough because it was two different stories and there was a lot of conjecture. Duration was a D and sex nudity was a C because it was going great. And then all of a sudden you saw other things that you didn't want to see and it was just ruined. And of course they never actually got to, you know, it's not like, so I, I, the Epstein
Sonny00:52:23stuff again, just, it all feels so shoehorned in to the rest of it.
Vic00:52:28I mean, there has to be a documentary on Epstein at some point, doesn't it feel like they made
Sonny00:52:33the Victoria's secret documentary. And then somebody else was like, wait, Jeffrey Epstein is part of this. Why do we not have an hour of Jeffrey Epstein stuff in here? I mean, it like that's, that's how the whole thing feels. And uh, you know, like again, there, there's, there, there's, there, there are good reasons to include him. You know, Epstein was, was portraying himself as a recruiter for Victoria's secret. And again, like he had Wexner's power of attorney. He, he siphoned. Hundreds of millions of dollars off of this guy. Like there's, there's all sorts of, there's all sorts of interesting stuff here, I guess, but like, it, it's just a different show. It's like, there are two, there are two and it's not fleshed out because there's so much
JVL00:53:16we just don't know. Sonny, let me throw, let me throw a conspiracy theory at you. Oh, we will never learn the truth about Jeffrey Epstein because the people involved in it are too powerful. It will be like there's a Pruder film or something. It'll be like, well, let's let, let's just, why did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone? Right.
Vic00:53:42It is simply unknowable. Let me throw this out here, which is, uh, do we all three of us agree that he did not hang himself?
JVL00:53:48I mean, in the cell, I'm sorry, but I find it unfathomable.
Sonny00:53:54Yeah.
JVL00:53:55Okay.
Sonny00:53:56I find it. I find it deeply unlike, oh, it happened between the shifts.
Vic00:54:00Oh, by the way, the tape is missing.
JVL00:54:02Oh, by the way.
Vic00:54:03Yeah.
Sonny00:54:04I'm sorry. Yeah.
Vic00:54:06I just like, it's wild, which is wild because then the, in our, in our, this thing happened in our midst and it just happened, you know, it happened, it happened in it's in it's intimately
Sonny00:54:16involved with all of these insanely powerful and wealthy people. I like, again, they're, they're most conspiracy theories I think are nonsense. I think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I'm 100% believe the Harvey Oswald act alone. I have no problem, no problem believing that he killed Kennedy. On his own. Like he was a, he was a nut job. He had tried to kill a guy before, like what, like the, the case against Lee Harvey Oswald is basically airtight as far as I'm concerned, um, the, the Epstein's, I mean, again, it's just like, it's like he's involved. He's involved with all of these powerful people who have all of the money in the world. And he mysteriously winds up dead when there's no videotape footage.
JVL00:55:02He's sitting on blackmail material, the likes of which I mean, what happens with a guy who's
Sonny00:55:08now in Russia? I didn't even, I didn't know that part of the story. I had like, okay.
Vic00:55:12The part that I found was also the part, the part that I found was weird is also this other French dude who is doing a similar job and also similarly died. Sean Luke. Yes. Yeah. Like that's weird.
JVL00:55:23And yet we don't get to know him anymore. 60 minutes expose for running a modeling agency where he's pimping out and abusing girls. He comes to America to get away from the French authorities and Jeffrey Epstein. He gloms onto him in five minutes. Yeah. What? There was, so I really, I did enjoy many of the ancillary characters. Uh, I liked Michael gross who I, I went digging cause I thought, boy, this is a guy I would like to read some of his work. And uh, according to Wikipedia, he both went to Vassar and is straight, which shocked me.
Vic00:55:53Um, wait a minute. Who is, who is he in the documentary?
JVL00:55:56He, uh, oh, I know, I know who he is sort of black hair who just had all sorts of great, fashion has one rule. Sell the frock. Right? Right. It was great. Um, wait a minute. He's okay. Yes. Uh, did you guys, did you guys, uh, you learn something on Martin is scared though, who is the wing designer? Yes. So this gentleman, uh, we are introduced to him and the first thing we see are a bunch of his sketches for the Victoria's secret. Angels wings. And then the, uh, I guess prototypes, which are all done at Barbie doll size. And the Barbie dolls are dressed in what I believe the Japanese refer to as anime.
Sonny00:56:47Oh, well, there were definitely a couple of, uh, large eyed Barbie dolls.
Vic00:56:53I gotta tell you, look, you mean what he was using the, like for his, uh, for the little dolls. What he was using. Yes.
JVL00:57:03Don't ask me how I know this, but I am promising you that this is the kind of guy who draws a lot of NC 17 versions of comic book characters. Yeah.
Vic00:57:13If you go Google black widow, lesbian, Scarlet witch, you're gonna see, you're gonna see
JVL00:57:19pictures drawn by this dude.
Vic00:57:22I bet.
?00:57:23They're good.
JVL00:57:24So, uh, that that's a weird guy.
Vic00:57:27Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that was, uh, all right.
JVL00:57:31Just as a, just as a little, you know, do either of you have an all time favorite Victoria's secret model? Because Victorino, I don't know about you, but, uh, the Victoria's secret catalog got me through some pretty lean years in middle school.
Vic00:57:45Okay. Wow. Wow. Not going there. Middle school. Thank you. Wait a minute. Uh, that was like for me last year. What are you talking about? That was Victoria's secret. What? I wasn't around when I was in middle school. What? Glamor. Oh, red book. No. Uh, who does the Seinfeld bit Sonny, the JC penny catalog? Uh, no, I'm looking at these, uh, looking at the models now it's funny because it's interesting. It's her. No, it's, it's, it's interesting that, uh, a lot of the famous models did not talk on record for this documentary. Of course not. Well, none of them was no Frederick Vanderval, Vanderval, Frederick. Yeah.
Sonny00:58:27The, well, the Victoria who got disappeared. I guess that was her and was like, you know, if they had stuck with me, everything would
Vic00:58:35have been fine. And the other, not, uh, not, um, Tyra banks, but the other younger, uh, African American, uh, Victoria. She's very pretty. She's very pretty. Well, she, I found her in trance.
Sonny00:58:47Was she a, was she an actual Victoria? Was she like with the pink line up?
Vic00:58:52She was.
JVL00:58:53And, uh, and the, the Dutch, the Dutch model too. Also talked Frederick. Yeah.
Vic00:58:57We'll talk a little, uh, we'll talk a little Heidi Klum in the outtakes.
JVL00:59:01How's that?
?00:59:02Oh, sure.
Vic00:59:03Yeah. Uh, yeah. She's great. Yeah. I get, I always get confused and that's Heidi Klum who isn't Heidi, which one married seal Heidi Klum. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, it's funny to see her younger there, cause I'm, you know, now that we did the reality TV shows and stuff, you see her now and she's still pretty, but everyone's gotten older. It's very sad. Okay.
JVL00:59:25Uh, is it, do we have any other time slowly turning us all into monsters?
Vic00:59:30Yep. Okay. All right. Okay. Uh, well, uh, corrections, shout outs, anything else? Nah, not for me. All right. Uh, that, no, it's not really, that's all the time we have, cause you're gonna stick
Sonny00:59:42around. Every, every, every, I hope every, uh, I hope that we did not offend all of our, uh, I think
Vic00:59:48we did all across the board, by the way, I think no one, I don't think anyone was left unoffended after this episode. And if you're, if you're still here, wait for the stickers. Um, that's all the time we're giving to this episode. Questions, comments, compliments, tweet us at Sonny Bunch at Victorino Matus. Again, be sure to subscribe to us on Patrion. Just go to sub beacon.com. We're there. Tell your friends until next time.
Sonny01:00:15So go ahead.
Vic01:00:19And I have thoughts too, but you first and then I'll.
JVL01:00:22So, so I don't know how close you guys have been to model culture, but in general models are my experience, at least a little bit like professional athletes. When you are vaguely around a professional athlete, you know it cuz they don't look like a normal human being, right? They're just, they're enormous there. You know, if you are, I don't know, like I, I remember sitting in the lobby of the Ritz Carlton, uh, in Georgetown and watching, uh, like three gentlemen who looked like aliens walk through. Yeah. And only later did I, I see somebody, you know, from the team. I was like, oh, it's an NBA team. I was staying here. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Football players are like, you see, you see a football player, an NFL player in the wild. And they're just like, okay, that's not a real person. That's right. That they're like a cartoon character and models are like that. And if you're around somebody who is a professional grade model, they just look like non-humans. They're just like a different species than we are. And the closest I've ever gotten to one is to Heidi Klum, the white house correspondence dinner. I was flying wing man for one. Leigh bash. Oh man. Uh, and he saw Heidi Klum and he's like, let's go talk to her. Let's go talk to her. And I was like, oh guys, we walked over and Matt Leigh bash did his, his thing where he said, Matt Leigh bash from the weekly standard. Love your work. And yeah. And so we sat there and we talked with Hyde Klum for like 10 minutes and she touched my arm and she was so beautiful that she didn't look human. And I don't mean that she looked plastic surgery or anything, not, not human in a way that you know, like we've seen like, like, you know, like the 50 year old orange County women
Vic01:02:05who don't look human because they look plastic when you're talking to her though. Are you just in your mind trying to think, what am I going to say next? Cause I'm so entranced by her.
JVL01:02:12Well, I didn't have to do a lot of talking cause I had Leigh bash to do that. But, uh, she just, just wasn't, wasn't normal. And I can't imagine going through life, looking like that in the same way that I can't really imagine going through life, being an NFL linebacker, right. Or, uh, I don't know if you watch the MLB all-star game, you know, and it's also judge and Shohei Otani and Giancarlo Stanton, they're like metahumans, they don't look like real people.
Vic01:02:43Or so probably also like, for example, uh, very famous, you know, Hollywood celebrities, actors or actresses who you just, because you see them all the time on TV, it weirds people out when they see them not on TV, but in person, it did just, you get set up staring
JVL01:02:56at it.
Vic01:02:57This is weird. Yeah, it is. I didn't want to say this, right.
JVL01:03:00Is that JBL? They can look normal.
Vic01:03:02I mean, you could, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess. And you can sort of, eventually you get used to being around them, but still, cause that's
JVL01:03:07the other thing, like even the most beautiful actresses in the world are not beautiful in the way that models are like, it's, it's, it's again, it's a different genus phylum species. Okay.
Sonny01:03:18The, um, well, it's less about, it's, it's also less about how pretty they are and just like how their bodies are shaped. Everything about them is different.
Vic01:03:24I don't know. Yeah. I, I, in my, in my experience, I would, I choose cute over hot. Hot is too much. I don't know. I can't handle hot, but, but, but cute. I can handle. I did want to say this Victorino.
JVL01:03:37You've got both, you're very kind, but she's listening as we all, we all do do much better than we deserve.
Vic01:03:45We all, that is, that is agreed.
Sonny01:03:46I do out kicked our coverage.
Vic01:03:48I do want to mention this, um, you know, looking forward to the, you know, the, the, this documenting being disappointed in many ways. Um, the, the, the, the moment, I think the weirdest thing we forgot to talk about this. Um, was the launch of pink in Victoria's secret.
Sonny01:04:05Oh yeah. I, I was, I was like weirded out by that.
Vic01:04:08The fashion show where it's like they were younger, which is funny because all of a sudden they made the other Victoria's secret angels look ancient by comparison when they came out there. And I don't know how old they were. And then not only that you mentioned the school unit, you know, the school uniform outfits, the girl with the tricycle, the, the, the lollipop, the lollipop. I was going to say, so listeners to the show, what is this? The third episode, the third episode where they show this, don't watch it. Skip that part. It's at 4426. That's the part you want to skip.
JVL01:04:41I'm sure it's fine.
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