#112. 'Winning Time' Finale
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This is a bonus episode with no opening banter — Vic, Sonny, and JVL dive straight into recapping the Season 1 finale of Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty on HBO. Vic is unreservedly enthusiastic, calling the season a "quadrant crusher" and gleefully cataloguing its commitment to gratuitous nudity (Sonny teases him relentlessly for "cottoning to that aesthetic"), while praising the finale's payoff of Magic Johnson playing center after Kareem's ankle injury and winning Finals MVP. Sonny liked the show but says he cooled on it as the season progressed, growing increasingly annoyed by Adam McKay's over-direction — especially the seemingly arbitrary mixing of Super 8, 16mm, and video film stocks within the same scenes — and finds its treatment of race and Larry Bird shallow despite enjoying Bird's portrayal as a dour, trash-talking hick. JVL, who missed the literal ending (distracted by a call with his realtor), largely agrees on the over-direction complaint. The trio digs into production trivia: Spencer Haywood has publicly called the show "95% accurate," Jerry West is reportedly furious enough to threaten legal action over Jason Clark's portrayal (which the hosts find sympathetic rather than unfair), and they debate how the series can possibly sustain multiple seasons covering the Lakers' 1980s run. They agree John C. Reilly is a superior Jerry Buss to what Will Ferrell would have delivered, noting the irony that the casting dispute that ended the McKay-Ferrell partnership arguably made the show better, and predict Emmy nominations for Reilly and Sally Field. The episode closes with a tangent into TNT-classic movies (The Quick and the Dead, Tombstone, Patriot Games) as a preview of the following week's main episode on The Quick and the Dead, before Vic jokingly grades Kristen Bell's Forgetting Sarah Marshall nudity on the Quadrant scale.
From the show notes
The Lakers win it all. But did they win the hearts of Vic, Sonny, and JVL?
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of the Sub-Beacon. I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Just a reminder, the Sub-Beacon is now available through Patreon. Go to subbeacon.com. You'll easily find us. Please subscribe. Tell your friends. Uh, so this week, uh, for the bonus, uh, we're discussing the season, not the series, but the season finale of winning time, the rise of the Lakers dynasty on H B O. Uh, I have to say, I really enjoyed this whole series. It was a quadrant crusher, uh, really was, and I love the cast. It really makes a difference when you put a lot of movie movie stars. In TV roles versus vice versa. And I found it very enjoyable. I am not, I was not familiar, you know, with the NBA at that time. That was not my thing in 1980. And, uh, I actually, I sort of cheated by finding out how far the Lakers went and, and did this actually happen in one year, the turnaround and it was, and I, it's quite remarkable. Yes.
Sonny00:01:21I mean, they, they, well, it's not like it was an enormous turnaround. I mean, like they, they had Kareem on the team. It was like, they, it was still, it was a pretty good team before, uh, before magic showed up. It felt like the morale, I just want to say, I just want to say, I do find it adorably quaint, how excited you get for like nudity on TV still.
Vic00:01:42It really is like, I think they took your advice and they're like, it doesn't have to be nudity to make a statement.
Sonny00:01:48It's just full on nudity for the sake of nudity and people who are willing to do it. This is, this is like, this is, it really is like the early seasons of the Sopranos where they had like the headquarters in a strip club just because, just because like we're on HBO, got to have some nudity and I love, I love that you are really, you, you have, uh, you have cotton to that, uh, aesthetic. And I, I have, there are some great scenes.
Vic00:02:13There's some great scenes. It's gratuitous. It's ridiculous. Uh, uh, and, uh, yeah, I have to tell you, it was like every, I was like, oh, I can't wait for Sunday again. Oh, here it comes. I really was after I got, I was like, here it comes.
Sonny00:02:27It's the only way I Victorino Mattis can find nudity on, on my screen at 9:00 PM.
Vic00:02:32And I was like, cause like Sunday morning, I turn on the TV. I'm like, where, where is it? It's like, it's not planning a word. I go, really? That's the end. That's the end of the whole series is of the season is Spencer Haywood saying, I want you to kill the Lakers, his, his druggie buddy, and then no.
Sonny00:02:47And it's like, how real was that? I like, I have no, I haven't read the book. I'll tell you what's funny.
Vic00:02:53I saw an interview, uh, with, uh, Spencer Haywood and you know how everybody's all upset about the, the people involved with the Lakers and the Lakers organization, they're very unhappy with this and, and magic Johnson is like, you know, that, that stuff is, you know, forget about it, it's not the real thing. And, you know, and Jerry West, Jerry West is actually very upset and wants to take them to court. He says he wants to take HBO to the Supreme court because of his portrayal, which I think is a great portrayal by Jason Clark. And then meanwhile, Spencer Haywood is. Like, you know, I know there's stuff is not true, but 95% of it is true. That's what Spencer Haywood said. And he goes, look, it was a really dark time. It was, it was a very dark time in my life. He said, um, and yet he liked it. I made, it made me wonder who is helping that besides the book is like, who is talking to them about like, oh yeah, well, that's really happened or this didn't happen because Spencer Haywood was very, you know, openly, uh, uh, embracing winning time and he was talking about being. Recognized recently he was at a game and LeBron James came up to him and, and, and, and, and, and gave him a hug and he was like, what's that for? And it was all because, you know, you know, realizing how important he was through winning, this is all from Spencer Haywood's point of view, but interesting is all, you know, and he did go on, you know, he, he, he, he ended up, he played in the Olympics, uh, years later, but it's a, that was a, he did not, he, he really did not finish, uh, the playoff run because of his. Uh, drug addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, what did you guys think?
JVL00:04:32So I gotta be honest. I didn't, I didn't catch the end of it because I was supposed to watch it this evening and, uh, I wound up on the phone with our realtor for that hour. Okay. So that, that caught me up. So it finishes with their, they won the finals and against the Sixers. Yeah.
Sonny00:04:52Sorry. Six games. It's the famous game where, uh, Kareem. The game. The game before he'd like broken his ankle and magic plays center, uh, at the start of the game. Um, and is, uh, is, uh, you know, does, you know, goes on to win the MVP. There's all, I mean, I wasn't, I, I am like kind of curious how real the like, well, Kareem actually won and then they took it away from him to give it to, to magic thing was that didn't sound, doesn't sound like something that would happen, but you never know. I don't, I don't know. Um, I, so here's, I liked. The show. Okay. Um, I, I, I cooled on it significantly as it went on just because it, it, uh, it, again, it was, it, it's fine. I, I just ended up getting so annoyed by the over direction of it that I kind of, I kind of checked out a little bit, just like the, the, the sequences where like you would have three different film stocks in different shots, all in the same scene. There's no rhyme or reason to any of it. It is. Just, it is so it is, it, it got it like eventually just made me, made me angry. I was like, do it for an effect or don't do it, but whatever you're doing, stop.
Vic00:06:06Yes. So question is, uh, Sonny, can you, uh, tell us what the different kinds of felt they were using?
Sonny00:06:14Where, well, they were using, they were using super eight. They were using like a super eight. They were using a 16 millimeter. They were using video. They were video video. Um, and I mean, I like. I, I, I, I'm not opposed to this technique. I think that there's something interesting to be done with other, with using different film stocks with using different aspect ratios, this is part of filmmaking and it can create a mood and can, it can create a tone, but again, the way they did it in this movie was just deeply annoying or this TV show was just deeply, deeply annoying to me. There's, there's no, there's no rhyme or reason to it. There's no emphasis that it is just like they wanted to experiment because nobody
Vic00:06:54had done this kind of a thing.
JVL00:06:56The thing before Adam McKay direct all of them. No, no, no.
Vic00:06:59I think just the first one in Jonah Hill directed, I think the second one, but I feel like Adam McKay's heavy hand throughout the series, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, but you could tell me the first one he did because it's all for, there was a lot, there was way too many fourth wall, you know, just like in the big short, the explainers, which are, and you get, you get all that, you
Sonny00:07:19get, you get a lot of Adam McKay with like the, the, the racial stuff and the, you know, the racism. Yeah. The treatment of Larry Bird and the, you know, the, everybody, everybody, you know, kissing Larry Bird's ass while magic Johnson, you know, wins the, wins the title. Um, you know, I like, again, I like, I think there's something to be said for the subject on the subject of race and basketball in America and, you know, 1979, 1980, but the way it's done in this is just so, it's so shallow and, and heavy surface level that like, yeah, I did. I do kind of enjoy, I kind of enjoy the, the performance, uh, of the, the presentation of Larry Bird as a dour hick, just like drinking real asshole.
JVL00:08:05And just like, Oh, he's a very difficult guy.
Vic00:08:07He's, I mean, he is famously a very, very, I looked into myself cause I didn't, you know, no more. And, and, and reading these interviews and people, the stuff that he would say on the court, like, uh, the trash talking and, well, I mean, obviously this is not news to you guys, but, uh, you know, where he would telegraph his plays and then, and other things like you better put somebody on me. I mean, it's just low key, low key.
Sonny00:08:29My favorite, uh, performance in this, uh, whole first season is Michael checklist as red hourback.
Vic00:08:34Oh yeah, he's good. That was pretty good. And he comes back, you know, in the, in, in the last, uh, episode because he's there to receive his award for, you know, executive of the year of the, of the year. Um, I think what I did was I just made myself get used to it, except. The different film formats. Because some of them are so ridiculous. Maybe it's a spring where there's like a little black slat on the side. Like I'm now I'm looking at it really. But again, you're right. It's all, I feel like they had to do, they just, I don't know if there was a, I don't know if there was a rhyme or reason or was it just, okay, the rule is every three shots we got to rotate because I would have been, you know, okay.
Sonny00:09:19I think that I, that as best as I can tell, that's all they were doing. My, my real question is where, how, how are they going to structure the series from here on out? Because I, I can't imagine they want to do a 10 season run of the whole 1980s.
Vic00:09:32No, we have, maybe just another season you, you, because you have to, they want us to get to the AIDS moment, but that's not until later. That's another 10 years or whatever. That's 10 years from now.
Sonny00:09:44So I wonder if they're, I wonder if they're just going to do every season the Lakers were in the finals. Cause the Lakers were in the finals for, I think six seasons in the 1980s. So yeah. You know, you could, you could get away with doing the structuring the series that way, or maybe just the times they won or, or something, but like, I can't imagine they're going to do one season. Yeah.
Vic00:10:06I mean, there was great drama. I mean, especially the stuff that's off the court with Jerry bus. I mean, aren't two seasons enough, right?
JVL00:10:13It was like the Netflix model. Like the truth is you don't need to do six seasons or even three seasons. Yeah.
Vic00:10:17I would hope to see two seasons. Nice and tight.
Sonny00:10:20Uh, the next, the Netflix model doesn't work.
JVL00:10:23It's it's also unsatisfying that you don't have to
Sonny00:10:25pay, but it's also this, the model that like the BBC uses.
JVL00:10:29Yeah. Not all the time, but often where you get, you know, you get two seasons of Sherlock. I guess Sherlock got three seasons, but you know, at that point you're doing like two episodes a season or four episodes a season because everybody's more expensive. And yeah, I don't know. I, I actually don't think this conceit could sustain multiple seasons like that. I think, you know, just jumping ahead to the end of it would be just as interesting as anything else. Right.
Vic00:10:55Yeah. I mean, Tokyo Vice is similar in the sense that it starts off in the very, you know, uh, the, the, oh, the opening scene is something that we have yet to see and we're at the end of the season. So when is that going to happen? You know, a couple of years down the line. Um, do you, do you think they're going to be Oscar? Oh, not Oscar Emmy noms for winning time. Well, I'm sure I'm sure this, this, so the series is a hit.
Sonny00:11:17Uh, it is doing, it is doing fairly well in the, uh, or at least as best as anyone can tell in the, you know, the ratings and the, you know, the, the, the chatter, the buzz. It's very buzzy talking about it. So my, I think, I think it'll probably, right.
Vic00:11:33I mean, why wouldn't it, it's, it's fun. I think the, I really like Quincy Isaiah who plays magic Johnson.
Sonny00:11:40Uh, he and the, he and the guy who played Kareem are both. Yes.
Vic00:11:43And the guy who plays Kareem is fantastic. And th th they're back and forth and there's a good payoff at the end too. When he finally breaks his, you know, sort of seriousness and is happy about playing and winning in the game, at least in the penultimate episode, uh, which is the playoff, the playoff montage to Fleetwood, max Tusk, which is, I think, excellent, um, and probably, I bet you Sally field gets a best supporting. Actress nom for Emmy nom. I could say that.
Sonny00:12:13Yeah, no, I, I mean, Jerry, uh, John C. Riley, John C. Riley is going to get nominated for Jerry bus and he'll deserve it. Cause he's great. I mean, again, like there is, there is a very deep irony, uh, in, in the, the thing that destroys the McKay Farrell partnership. Being like, I wouldn't, I don't know, I like John C.
Vic00:12:35Riley in this role, right?
Sonny00:12:36I mean, I, I, I like, again, I, I liked it, but I don't love it. I do think it's like, I think it tended, it like trended back to mediocre as, as the season went along. Um, but there's something very funny about like that decision destroying that partnership, but that also being the best decision that they made for the good of the show. Yeah.
Vic00:12:55I really hate to say that I hate to say that there, I just can't pictured being as good with will Farrell where, you know, you're expecting all sorts of jokes and things, you know, every time he's
Sonny00:13:08on screen, John C. Riley is, I mean, I like will Farrell a lot, but John C. Riley acts rings around him.
Vic00:13:16Yeah, that's right.
Sonny00:13:17Better actor.
Vic00:13:17Did you know, by the way, so, uh, Norm Nixon, uh, the, uh, the, the, the guy who plays him, the basketball players played by Norm Nixon. His actual son, Davon Nixon.
Sonny00:13:27Oh, I think I did see that. Yeah.
Vic00:13:28So he actually was talking about, I saw in an interview where, uh, he taught him some moves and, you know, the way he would play the way it was just, it's great. Uh, you do see, you don't see a lot of basketball, but you see enough, at least for me, I mean, it's sort of, it looks like the same sort of moves in every, every time they're on court, but that's fine. You know, that's fine.
Sonny00:13:48I would be, I am curious how they, uh, I'm curious when they shot that last episode and how much. How much of that was like CGI crowds versus like actual crowds because I imagine if you tried to shoot that during the pandemic, that's a tough, that's a tough scene to shoot.
JVL00:14:05Certainly the upper level is, uh, CGI saw, uh, Coliseum doesn't even exist anymore. Does it? Do they knock it down?
Sonny00:14:12Yeah. I mean, I assume it's like a college, I assume it's a college stadium or something.
Vic00:14:16But I, what I saw was like the whole second level was all green screen.
Sonny00:14:20Yeah. I would, I think that's probably safe, but it is again, it's very funny that Jerry
Vic00:14:24West got so upset about his portrayal, which is a very profanity. Jason Clark's great. Yeah. But I mean, you've seen Jerry West, right?
JVL00:14:32Yeah, right. He's a mean guy. He gets upset all the time and everything. Yeah. And he, and, uh. Not surprising at all that he gets upset.
Vic00:14:37And he, and Jason Clark doesn't so, I mean, he's actually, I find him quite sympathetic.
Sonny00:14:43Jason Clark is great. And I think it is, I think, I think Jerry, I look, I understand Jerry West not being thrilled by being portrayed as an alcoholic, you know, rage case. I get it. But like, I think, I think it's actually pretty sympathetic. Um, as, as far as, as far as like some of the portrayals in the show go, it's, it is, it is broad, but not, not too broad. I said, I love Jason Clark. I think he's great. Did you guys see Chappaquiddick?
Vic00:15:05Yes.
Sonny00:15:06The movie where he, he, he, so he played Ted Kennedy in that and he's great. And it's really, it's actually really good. I, I, I strongly recommend it.
Vic00:15:14It's two movies, right Sonny?
Sonny00:15:16No, it's just one.
Vic00:15:17No, no, no. I mean, it's like two movies. There's like two storylines there. Cause the second one is more like this farce. Yeah.
Sonny00:15:23I mean the, the first, the first, the first, the first half of the movie is basically like a kind of straightforward historical drama, docudrama type thing. And then after the death occurs, it turns into this like weird, almost comic farce, this like comedy of manners type, type thing, which is very, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a slightly shocking shift in tone, but it works perfectly. And it like really gets to the end. A morality of that whole clan family. That's right. That's right.
Vic00:15:58Uh, yeah, that's right. They're all, well, it's, it's the, it's, it's, it's, it's the damage control. Yeah. And every mistake.
Sonny00:16:06And, and, and, and it's like, it's filled with just like great character actors like
Vic00:16:11Clancy Brown, uh, as a McNamara, right?
Sonny00:16:15Yeah. And it just like a bunch of, a bunch of guys. I really like her in that. Uh, I don't know. I, I think it's, it might still be on Netflix. Um, but it's, it's worth. Checking out.
Vic00:16:23Okay.
Sonny00:16:24Good. We're going to do, uh, we're going to do a main episode of a movie on Netflix next week. I think we'll give, should we give people a preview? Oh yeah.
Vic00:16:30Because somebody on Twitter was hoping that we would, and I didn't want to click on anything, but they were thinking it was a bonus episode, but there is no other big movie coming out this weekend. Is there Sonny?
Sonny00:16:40Yeah. This week is a very slow week.
Vic00:16:43Because this is like two weeks before Top Gun.
Sonny00:16:46Well, because they, they, they, no, because they, they, everybody wanted to get out of the way of Dr. Strange. I mean, it's, it was going to be a huge.
JVL00:16:53So what, what are we doing next week?
Sonny00:16:56We are going to do quick in the dead. Oh, that's right. Main episode on quick of the dead.
JVL00:17:01So that is one of those, the cavalcade of stars in that movie, Russell Crowe, Leonardo DiCaprio, Sharon Stone, uh, Gene Hackman.
Vic00:17:14Uh, I keep on thinking Alfred Molina, but you know, like what a doubt for, um, who's,
Sonny00:17:19who's the, uh, uh, David, it's either David Keith. Or Keith David. It's one of the, uh, two.
Vic00:17:25Yeah. It's, it's just, I'll say, I'm going to go with David Keith. I could be wrong.
Sonny00:17:29Uh, but also Lance Hendrickson, uh, Pat Hingle. Um, God, who else? Tobin Bell, uh, is, is in that movie. Hold on. Uh, I'm just, I'm just pulling up right now. Uh, Keith David. Yeah. Um, as the like gunman, Gary Sinise.
JVL00:17:48Gary Sinise. He says, I'm a shootist. Gary Sinise is the dad, right? Gary Sinise is the dad.
Sonny00:17:52Mark Boone. Mark Boone Jr. I, I love this movie. It's so, it's fantastic. Everybody, everybody is so good in it.
JVL00:17:59The Quick and the Dead is like a bizarre cousin of Unforgiven. And I don't understand what the, the, because the two movies are not separated that much, uh, temporally.
Vic00:18:12Yeah. Does Gene Hackman play?
JVL00:18:13They were released within a couple. Gene Hackman is, is in both. Yeah. And, and Bad Guy in both. He's the villain in both.
Sonny00:18:19Yeah. Yeah. They are released within a couple years. Five years of each other, I think. About five years. Five, five years of each other. Four years, four years.
JVL00:18:27And they are at the total opposite ends of the spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of what a Western can be. It's, uh, it's just a weird relationship.
Sonny00:18:37I, I mean, it is, it is a, like, Unforgiven essentially is the end of the ability to make a, like, standard Western, right? You can't, you can't make, like, a standard Indians and Cowboys, you know, what I, like, you can't, you just can't do it anymore after, after that movie. So, what, what you get is a bunch of both revisionist Westerns, but then also, like, art, artistically inclined sort of things. Yeah. It dances with wolves, right? Yeah. I don't know. I love it. I, because, again, it's a Sam Raimi movie and it is shot, like, it's a Sam Raimi Western, which is, like, you know, they gave him $35 million to make this movie. A lot of the time. They did not make their money back. They did not make their money back on that one. So, uh, but it is, I think, I think over the years it has, it has grown in esteem. I think people have come around to it. I've always been a fan.
JVL00:19:24Isn't it a basic cable classic? I mean, don't people just love it? It has to be.
Sonny00:19:27Yeah. I mean, it, it is, I don't, I don't, it's not like Tombstone, um, which is, well, I, it's funny, I just say that you, like, couldn't make a standard traditional Western, but, like, Tombstone is very much a standard traditional Western and is much beloved. Um, but the, uh, but the, the, you know, the, the, it is, it is a movie that was on TNT about 500 times a year. Um, and, and I think people... I think people have come around to it. Which are the best movies. Yes. Those are...
JVL00:19:55Those movies that were on TNT, the TNT movies are the best movies.
Vic00:19:58Well, it's the question of what movie, you know, if you were, if you were an exact... It's like that and Shawshank Redemption. You would ask, you know, is there a movie that you would never get tired of watching and you just put it on and then that would be the best movie.
JVL00:20:07Yeah. Patriot Games, right? Patriot Games is on, is on 500 times. Clear and present. You know what I need to see? Clear but in danger.
Vic00:20:13More Forgetting Sarah Marshall. That's what I need to see. More Forgetting Sarah Marshall.
JVL00:20:16Was that on TNT? No, I need to, no, it's in my mind.
Vic00:20:19I feel like it's more of an HBO. I was going to say, that's an HBO. That, that is, it's in my mind right now. Kristen Bell.
JVL00:20:27Would you please put some pants on?
Vic00:20:30Did very well on The Quadrant. The Quadrant. No, not, not me. No, it didn't though. It did not do well on The Quadrant. Just mail me. That's what's funny. Oh, no, with those actresses, I'll take it.
Sonny00:20:41Oh, jeez. All right, I'm sure it's fine.
?00:20:48I'll see you next time.
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