#84. 'Heist' (Netflix)
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This short bonus episode, with no opening banter, has Vic and Sonny (and JVL joining partway in) dig into David Mamet's Heist (2001), newly available on Netflix and revisited after Vic's son went on a Gene Hackman kick. All three love it: Sonny frames the film as fundamentally about how many double-crosses Mamet can stack in the Swiss-gold plane job before the audience calls bullshit, and JVL argues Mamet fully earns every twist by showing early on just how meticulously Gene Hackman's con man always plans an escape (tying it back to the "there's always an escape" mantra from Mamet's Redbelt). Ricky Jay is the consensus highlight of the supporting cast — Vic recounts seeing Jay perform his live card show "52 Assistants" in DC and getting nervous he'd be picked as a volunteer — with Delroy Lindo, Sam Rockwell, and a "white hot" Rebecca Pidgeon also praised, though Sonny flags two soft spots: a shootout ending that relies on luck rather than Hackman's usual preparation, and a not-quite-convincing final flip by Pidgeon's character toward Rockwell and DeVito (JVL counters that she reads as a pure sociopath throughout, unlike the workmanlike rest of the crew). They also riff on David Mamet's famous "rules of drama" memo to The Unit writers about dialogue mattering less than structure, and close by arguing the film would be unrecognizably worse if remade today as a flatly lit, overlong Netflix production.
From the show notes
The guys talk David Mamet's Heist . Sonny mentioned a letter Mamet wrote to the writers of The Unit ; the link to that is here .
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of the Sub-Beacon. I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. LastassumedBunch. Just a reminder, the Sub-Beacon is now available through Patreon. Go to subbeacon.com. You'll easily find us. Obviously, you did, but please tell your friends and subscribe. Today, we are talking about a classic con movie by the great David Mamet, Heist from 2001, starring Gene Hackman and a very solid supporting cast. We brought this up. We decided to bring up Heist. I can't remember why, but obviously because it's on. It's on Netflix now. Netflix. That's right. That was the main reason. You just happened to come across it.
Sonny00:00:52Yeah, it hasn't been on streaming a ton. I have always... I almost pulled the trigger on the Blu-ray a couple of times, but it's like $25. I was just like, I'm not going to...
Vic00:01:02Well, it's one of those things because you see it now and people are listening to this show. Hopefully, it's still on there because at any moment, a show that I'll come across, I'll be like, oh, I want to watch that and I'll come back and then it's gone. Yeah, it's a problem. Something else is in its place and it's just maddening. But Heist is definitely one. And I feel like it was on another streaming channel earlier. I came across it. Before we were going to do the show because I love Gene Hackman. My son had gone on a Gene Hackman kick. He liked a lot of his movies. But I wanted to watch it before he did in case it was anything that might be inappropriate. And it was just weird that I somehow missed this because in my mind, I'm thinking like Absolute Power, but that's completely different. Different movies. Yeah, that's different. Very different movie. And he plays the president. I keep on thinking maybe it was around the same time. That's why. In any event, Heist.
Sonny00:02:03Heist, 2001, written, directed by David Mamet. There's a weirdly great run of David Mamet movies around this time. State and Maine came out a couple years before this, then Heist, and then Spartan in 2004, starring Val Kilmer. But this is David Mamet's Heist movie. It is a twisty, turny, not quite noir. Style film. It is a the story of a aging con man thief played by Gene Hackman, who, while they're taking down a score at a at a at a jewelry shop, gets burnt. His identity is revealed. He can't get the tapes to get to get to get rid of the evidence of who he is. So he has to retire. He has to retire. He goes to Danny DeVito. He's like, I want my money. And Danny DeVito screws him. And I have a question here, because I've never I've watched. This movie three or four times. I've never understood exactly what Danny DeVito does to screw Gene Hackman. I understand that he wants to take a larger cut of the proceeds. But why doesn't Gene Hackman just walk out with a bag of diamonds? Oh, you mean after the year, after the first JBL?
JVL00:03:12I think you're muted, sir, because he's already handed it over.
Sonny00:03:15So he's handed it over. The diamonds are gone, but he wants given it to Gene.
JVL00:03:18He has given it to Gene, given it to Danny DeVito. Danny DeVito physically has it, and he is in Danny DeVito's lair. Yeah, he knows he's not to be able to get out of there. Right. And Danny DeVito doesn't have the money on him. So was he was he going to do plus also fencing stuff is hard, right? You only fence it to the people you know and work with. OK, OK. So that that's my read on it.
Sonny00:03:38Right, right. And that's also my basic read on it. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something more complicated.
Vic00:03:45Yeah. And he's holding out on the money until he does, quote, one last score.
Sonny00:03:49One last score. And this this last score is taking down a plane full of gold, plane full of Swiss gold and the, you know, the movie is all about the movie is all about how many double crosses you can do reasonably on screen and without losing the audience. I think that is that's the actual point of this movie. The point of this movie isn't Gene Hackman needs to get money so he can go retire. The point isn't never trust a woman, though. That's also true. The the the the point of the movie, the point of the movie is David Mamet showing how many times he can double cross a character on screen and still have you by the final double cross at the end. It's like a triple guy getting getting away with the money. So I look, I love this movie. It is it is like very vintage, hard boiled David Mamet dialogue. JBL, do you can we talk a little bit about David Mamet's rules for do you remember this when the unit was out and he wrote he wrote essentially a two pager that was like, here are the rules of drama.
JVL00:04:55I do not.
Sonny00:04:56It was it. Yeah. So he was it was it was very funny because it was it was all about like the uselessness of dialog. David Mamet was talking about like how little dialog actually matters. He's like, we need to you need to in a scene in any given scene, you need to you need to like explain a couple of specific things among them. Like, what does what does the person want? How do they get it? And what is the next thing they want? More or less something like I can't remember. I didn't actually read it before we did this. I should have should have done some prep work, but I did not. But but it was very funny because in this in this, you know, two pager, he's he's talking about how like unimportant dialog is, which is if you know anything about David Mamet movies is the height of humor because the whole thing about David Mamet movies is how great they're written and how good the dialog is and how like hard Gary Glenn.
JVL00:05:43So this is a this is a thing that you hear, though. William Goldman used to say this all the time. Joss Whedon would say this all the time. You know, the dialog is and. And the guys who are known for their tremendously great dialog almost all say that the truth is the story is what's important story, a structure that that is true, provided you have the talent to produce great dialog, right? I mean, if you can just toss it off, if you if you are capable of making great dialog as you're just the way in which you write, then yes, it's true. Dialog does not matter, and you can simply focus on the structure of the story and allow the story to be the star, very much like an after we fell.
Sonny00:06:30Yes, exactly. Exactly. As we were just discussing. So anyway, I love this movie. It's got it's got a bunch of great lines like, you know, everybody needs money. That's why they call it money, which makes no sense, actually. When you think of it like what that that line doesn't actually. But the way it's parsed at all, but the way it's delivered is perfect is perfect. You know, Delroy Lindo, who.
JVL00:06:54How long is a Chinaman? I.
Vic00:06:55There are two Chinese references. There are two. There are two. Adorable as a Chinese baby.
Sonny00:06:59Yes. Two. And it's interesting. It's interesting. Yeah. Delroy Lindo is fantastic in this. Delroy Lindo. So good. This is this is like another another interesting run here is Delroy Lindo's run through this stretch where he was in he was in like Congo gone in 60 seconds. And this movie in, I think, three consecutive years or maybe three of the four years. And he he is he's really only in. He's in Congo for like one scene and he's the best thing in that movie. He's like the only thing I remember about that movie. One of the worst things I've ever seen. And he he's he's he's got like a recurring bit in Gone in 60 Seconds. He's fine. But he's so good in this. He's so good in this. And he's great. Not everything he does.
Vic00:07:42I do. I when I see him, I keep on thinking at some point he's going to say, man, you only think you know me, which is his line from Get Shorty. I always feel like he's going to say that. And of course, the crazy eyes. He's got crazy eyes. He's got crazy eyes. My default is not to trust him because button as a character. You should pray about it.
JVL00:08:02Yeah.
Sonny00:08:03And of course, Ricky Jay. Ricky Jay.
JVL00:08:05Ricky Jay. Oh, great. Every single scene that he is in in this movie ever. So good. Yes. During the highway stop with the state police where he is sitting in the backseat talking to to Sam Rockwell and just that tone of voice he has. Yeah. Put it down. Put your hands on the steering wheel. Don't do anything.
Sonny00:08:27So don't start the car. Don't start the car.
JVL00:08:31It is sitting here. That level of both reassurance but command that he has in it is so good. And I just think this is one of the more electric Ricky Jay performances. Yeah.
Vic00:08:49Yeah. I you know, speaking of which, by the way, and we can get back to. Heist the best show, and I've told this to you before, the best live show I've ever seen in Washington, D.C.
JVL00:09:01Jay and his fifty two assistants and his fifty two assistants.
Vic00:09:04And you know, he walks up and down the aisle. So I mean, I'm a touching distance of Ricky, the late Ricky Jay. And he is such a consummate performer. And of course, his sleight of hand is so amazing. And you know, the funny thing is, when they asked for volunteers, I didn't raise my hand. I got nervous. I was like. What happens if he picks me? I have to go up there and do the card. I don't know what to do. You know what I mean? It's like it's a weird thing because. But but he was so impressive and I'm just I was just in awe of him because he does it so well. And he's also a terrific showman. You know, he had the he had he had the audience in stitches and he's very good at that.
JVL00:09:40That's because Ricky Jay is was fascinated also with cons. And so he I think of him almost like a consulting producer on this show. Sure. And his collaborations with Mamet because both of them are so fascinated. The idea of that world of con men and part of that, you can see exactly why somebody who is so fascinated with con men would be a great performer. Right. Right. Just that and the ability to talk their way through anything. Yes. No doubt. There's no there's no question that, of course, he can't. That's right.
Vic00:10:17Talk his way through something.
JVL00:10:18That's right. Which is which is Gene Hackman's superpower in this movie.
Vic00:10:21Do we? Do we? Do we need to explain what heist is about a little view?
Sonny00:10:27I don't want to. I mean, I feel like I don't want to explain too much about it just because I don't want to see folks.
Vic00:10:33It's basically one last con.
Sonny00:10:36It's about. Yeah. I mean, there's there it is. It is, again, the without explaining each individual in and out and con and re re reset. It is it is about how many times you can do that on screen before the audience. It calls bullshit. And I think I think Mamet gets away with it. I mean, they're there. I think for maybe they're either four or five discrete reversals in in the in the in the con involving the the the Swiss gold.
JVL00:11:08So let me allow me to if if you will. I agree that Mamet earns it. And I think I can tell you why there is a scene early when Gene Hackman's character is leaving Danny DeVito's shop. Danny DeVito was his fence Hackman on the theft, which he has gotten burned on, which, by the way, that theft, the way it is carried out on screen is just beautiful. It is like watching clockwork. You see each one of the gears ticking around. It's just great cinema. So he walks out onto the street from this building. He is pursued by Sam Rockwell. Sam Rockwell says something to Delroy Lindo. Delroy Lindo slugs. Slugs him, and only then do they see that there are a couple of cops walking a beat down the street. The cops come down looking to talk to them, and Hackman totally calmly says, Don't worry about this. We're clean because Ricky Jay is standing on the corner, and Ricky Jay walks toward his newspaper with his newspaper, walks towards Hackman, and Hackman says, We need to get out. Jay says, No problem. Jay then fakes—not fakes, but gets himself hit by a car so the cops take over, you know, forget about Delroy Lindo and go to helping him out. And that scene shows that the level of preparation that Hackman's character brings to every single thing he does, every single moment of every day, is such that he is always making sure that he has an escape. It made me think of Red Belt, actually, right? Yeah. The mantra that— Yeah. —Hackman before has in Mammoth's Red Belt is that there's always an escape. There's always an escape. And that's what Hackman is thinking. And we see it so many times early in the movie that by the end, I think they're all totally earned. Yeah. We, the viewers, believe absolutely that, of course, he was ready for this and that and that and that.
Sonny00:13:13Yeah. Yeah.
JVL00:13:15There are—
Sonny00:13:16You don't have to convince yourself. There are two discrete weaknesses in the end. First off, like, just going back to Ricky. Ricky Jay's getting hit by the car. The other thing that makes the rest of the film work is that he uses that in the next scam to ditch Rockwell's character to call off the job. And he uses that and it works perfectly and you can see how everything else works. I do think there are two discrete weaknesses in the end. The first is that it culminates in a big shootout. And having your out be, "I can shoot my way out of this," is not a very good out. And the second is the way Rebecca Pidgeon's character, the femme fatale, I didn't entirely buy her flipping to Rockwell and DeVito.
Vic00:14:10I didn't entirely buy it. Ultimately, yeah. I agree with that. I thought for sure she would meet up with him.
Sonny00:14:16What I didn't buy, it's not that I didn't buy that she would flip on him under Russ. What I didn't buy was all the way at the very end when she, she is still with Rockwell.
JVL00:14:29So I bought that because I think she's a pure sociopath all through the movie. The rest of them are craftsmen, right? Delroy Lindo, Ricky Jay, and there's a, it's a four man crew and the three guys in it are just workmen, you know, like this is, this is a job, they do this for money. She seems much more like Wayne Grove. You know, for her, the action is the juice she's there cuz she, she likes hurting people, you know? And so I, I bought her, her flip. So the shootout is an interesting thing, right? Cuz this is the one moment where he isn't actually prepared and it's because Ricky Jay, who he trusts implicitly in the way that he trusts Delroy Lindo has been bent and that's the one, right? So he, he trusts the, the. The people in his crew. He trusts. Absolutely. Now he still had an escape, which is the, the, that the gold is not where. Right. They think it's going to be. That's right. They think it's gonna be in the boat. It's not there. Yeah. But yeah, I, I agree. The weakness of the shootout, it seems like, you know, yes, he has Delroy Lindo submerged underwater on the side of the boat with him. Yes. He's prepared for a shootout, but also he's, you know, he's getting lucky there. Relying on luck. The shootout itself. In ways that everything else he's not.
Vic00:15:54The shootout itself is kind of silly in its own way because it's so, it's like a, it's like a petty shootout. It's just not, it's just not well done to just fire it away at each other. But, but in that sense, I thought it was believable. Danny DeVito is standing in the middle, just telling everybody, stop shooting. We're talking. We're talking. Someone, why are you shooting? Everybody stop shooting. People are dying. But this way he still wants to bring calm to the situation. Yeah.
Sonny00:16:16You know. Danny DeVito is so good in this. Yeah.
JVL00:16:19We haven't really talked about Danny DeVito. Is Danny DeVito's character gonna, gonna be straight with them do you think or no? Was he, was he always going to screw them? Oh. Oh yeah. Like from the get go. From the, from the gold? From the moment, from the jewels. From the gold. Yeah. Oh. From the gold.
Sonny00:16:37Is he always going to screw them on the gold? It's a lot of money. It's a lot of, if, especially if Hackman is retiring, he's not going to be working with them anymore.
?00:16:42Yeah.
Vic00:16:43And that's the thing.
Sonny00:16:44Maybe. Yeah.
JVL00:16:46That's interesting. Guys like you think you can just walk away from guys like me, right? And that's a. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vic00:16:54Nobody gets to retire. There, there are very few women by the way who get away with, you know, looking very hot with the short hair, but she's one of them and I don't, I have never seen him. The other one by the way is Demi Moore in ghost, uh, which is very cute with that short hair, but I've never seen her in anything else.
Sonny00:17:07Pigeon. No. Pigeon is also in a state in Maine.
JVL00:17:10She's in all the movies. She's married to him.
Sonny00:17:12All right. Aren't they? Aren't they married? Oh really? No, no. He's married to, he's married to somebody else.
JVL00:17:18Uh, I think. And then she's married to somebody in his repertory. Yeah. She is a man. I, I have never been a Rebecca Pigeon guy, but in this, in, in heist, she is white hot.
Vic00:17:31Yeah. Like there is just something, and I think it's the sociopathy like the crazy, which
JVL00:17:39is, which is crazy, uh, crazy hot, but yeah, everybody, you know, Hackman is really good. It's not a showy performance by Hackman standards. Yeah. But it's really grounded. He's so great.
Sonny00:17:53And believable. Yeah. Yeah. This is one of his last movies. Like he was in, he was in the Royal Tenenbaums a year before this. He was in this. Oh. And then he's in like Welcome to Mooseport.
Vic00:18:02When was, when was Enemy of the State?
Sonny00:18:04That was '97. Wow. It was before this. Okay. So it was just before that then. It was a few years before this. Yeah. Um, but he, like he retired after Welcome to Mooseport. Is that right?
JVL00:18:14He's just living. Be careful, please.
Sonny00:18:16Don't.
Vic00:18:17Don't say his name. I'm not even going to tell you. There is something worse, by the way. That happened. And I'm not even, not even on the bonus episode because we joke about it and I heard Pod made a joke about my powers, quote unquote powers on Klopp and I was going to tell him about something. And I'm even, I'm too freaked out too. So maybe one day in the far future I'll share something because it is like, I'm not, obviously it's not, but it's, it's just creepy. It's real.
Sonny00:18:42I don't know. It's real. The Vic Curse. Fucking angel of death.
JVL00:18:46Vic Curse is real. There are so many quotable lines in this. Yeah. What does Ricky Jay say? He's like, my mother fucker's so cool when sheep go to sleep they count him.
Vic00:18:55Yeah. Yeah.
JVL00:18:57Yeah. It's very good. Everything. It's very good.
Vic00:19:01Were you guys just taken by the Ricky Jay's performance in this as I was? Oh yeah. No, I, I obviously I love Ricky Jay and I mean, and I, and I've seen his other shows like you can go to YouTube and just watch his performances and I, he had a, I think it was on HBO at some point when he did one of his other card shows and they're just mesmerizing in the, in the, in the true sense of it. And, and. Uh, no. So I love him. What I was going to say is, you know, when, as you were saying Sonny about, you know, how many times can, you know, like the, the double cross, the triple cross as it were back, you know, like how many times can you could keep the audience going? The first one, you know, I thought it was like not knowing that there's going to be more layers to it. I was like, oh, it seems pretty obvious, you know, like, you know, these guys are going to fool Sam Rockwell and the whole thing. I know that that's, what's going on here. And then, and then it goes on from there, but, and so they're acting, I mean, it's, they have to play, you know, they're acting in such a way that it's slightly off enough to, you know, like to let the audience know, obviously that they're pretending, you know, acting by, you know, by saying, oh no, we'll just meet you over there. Oh no, we're going to, you know, do this where, you know, we're going to, you know, take care of these things later and convince him, uh, Sam Rockwell, uh, otherwise. And I'm like, geez, it seems kind of just a bit off. And then it continues, but I mean, they play it very well. Sam Rockwell is great in this too.
JVL00:20:17That guy is sneakily. Really good in just about everything he's in. Yeah.
Sonny00:20:24My problem. I can't think of a bad Sam Rockwell performance.
Vic00:20:27No. My problem with Sam Rockwell is the first movie I actually saw him in was green mile. And that is so scarred me from that because he plays such an awful person in that movie. And so every time I see him, I can never think of him as being like ever, like nice or something. I've not seen matchstick men. Is he in that? Isn't he in that or no with Nicholas cage or no?
Sonny00:20:47Uh, I can't remember.
Vic00:20:49I can't remember either, but you know, I know he put, but he's, he's done a lot of different things, obviously. And he played a good, he played, he played a great W. He is a great W. He's probably was he, you've seen the Oliver stone W yes. Yeah. So you would agree Sam Rockwell's is better.
Sonny00:21:04Wow. I mean, it's, it's a different sort of, it's a different sort of, it's a different sort of movie. It's a, it's a more like nakedly comic performance. Okay.
JVL00:21:11Um, he's great. I feel like we just watched something with him in it. Uh, I don't know if them red was a red rabbit. Run. What was the, the, the Hitler white tattoo? Oh yeah. Jojo rabbit.
Vic00:21:24Jojo rabbit. He's great. Also, uh, he plays fabulous in that movie in, uh, in, in, in frost Nixon.
Sonny00:21:30He plays James Reston, uh, Eastwood movie about the Atlanta.
Vic00:21:35Oh yeah. Yeah. The lawyer. Richard. So good. So good. Okay. Yeah.
JVL00:21:43Great.
Vic00:21:44Anyway, this is just, this is, you know, the other, the score in this movie is fantastic. I just, everything, you know what the score reminded me of. It reminded me of a little bit of, uh, the firm, uh, which is, um, Dave Grusin, but also, uh, I kind of had, it kind of had a weird feel, at least for me, uh, shades of, Hmm. I know I was going to say it well, yes, in, in, in, in shades of the untouchables and of course the untouchables, the, the script was David Mamet and art Linson. And I see art Linson in the credits for, uh, the heist.
JVL00:22:14So yeah, way the guns is the other, it feels the, the score feels a little bit like way the gun. I, I would just like to say that if this movie gets made in 2022, it's a Netflix movie and it sucks because it's not, this is a low budget.
Sonny00:22:37If it was made for Netflix now, it would look like it was lit in a, you know, on an NBC
JVL00:22:42sitcom. Yes. Yes. But cause this is, this is not a big budget thing. No. Um, but it is. It is. It looks like a movie. Mm-hmm. It is a piece of cinema.
Vic00:22:52It's a movie. You just don't see that.
JVL00:22:54It's hard to see that anymore anymore. This is not what you would get if this, this movie would not be made for theatrical now. It would only be made for Netflix and it would look like shit and it would be probably another 25 minutes of it. Uh, so it would be too long and this is why streaming is ruining everything.
Sonny00:23:15Yeah, no, it would be, it would be shot with like Sony red. cameras. It would have that flat digital sheen to it. It would, it would be lit like it was on a, uh, again, it would be lit like it was, you know, uh, uh, NBC or ABC sitcom. It would be, uh, as you say, it would be too long. This would, this would have been six more reversals and it'd be like, oh, get to the point.
JVL00:23:37I'm sure it's fine.
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