#66. 'Hawkeye' Episodes One and Two
Listen to this episode ↗on Substack, where the show lives now
This is a bonus episode, with JVL absent, covering the first two episodes of Disney+'s Hawkeye, guest-hosted again by John Podhoretz alongside Sonny and Vic. Podhoretz says the show looks noticeably cheaper than the movies and that the premiere is a slog because he simply doesn't care about Kate Bishop, but he perks up once Jeremy Renner shows up as a bitter, funny, believably human Hawkeye, and he singles out the in-show "Rogers: The Musical" number (with its "I Could Do This All Day" showstopper) as genuinely clever; having already watched episode three, he teases a terrific fifteen-minute chase scene to come. Vic is cooler on it, finding the plot uncompelling and griping at length about cheap-looking CGI fire (comparing it unfavorably to an Angelina Jolie movie), though all three agree the show is a huge step up from the old ABC/Netflix Marvel shows. Sonny highlights what he loves about Hawkeye as a character - an "achievable" superhero with no powers who just got really, really good at archery, and who has a secret, normal family life (the Linda Cardellini reveal) that makes him relatable and weary of being thanked for saving the world. The conversation widens into praise for the MCU's uncanny knack for casting unknowns (Renner, Simu Liu, Chris Hemsworth, Tom Holland) versus the overstuffed disaster of Eternals, and a tangent on Falcon and the Winter Soldier's wasted potential. There's no long opening banter this time, since the episode launches straight into the review, but it closes with Sonny and Vic teasing next week's bonus topic - the newly-Netflix Wild Things - with Vic already promising it a strong Quadrant rating.
From the show notes
It's a Marvel TV show and it's also a sitcom, kinda?
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Victor Mattis: Hello, and welcome to another bonus edition of the Sub-Beacon. I'm Victor Mattis, along with Sonny Bunch, and we are once again joined by the editor of commentary, Jon Podhoretz. Today, we are talking about the first two episodes of the new Marvel series, Hawkeye, starring Jeremy Renner, Haley Steinfeld, and Vera Farmiga. Gentlemen, what did you think? Sonny.
Sonny00:00:37Jon Podhoretz: So Hawkeye is, is is one of these Disney plus Marvel shows, that just is clearly like not as expensive as the movies and it shows and some of the shows and some of the sets and some of the action set pieces. You get these occasional Jon Podhoretz: they did this in Loki to where a character will like look out a window and it will clearly be green screen just like a clearly like looking on Jon Podhoretz: a green screen effect. And in this case it was of the Battle of New York against Loki and his his minions. Right. So it's it's one of these it's one of these shows that looks slightly cheap compared to Jon Podhoretz: compared to the movies. The first episode is super, super slow. Jon Podhoretz: I did not particularly care that much about the young lady who were introduced to what's what's her name? Kate Bishop. Jon Podhoretz: Yes, Kate Bishop is based on. Is this a based on a real. Jon Podhoretz: It's based on a comic book. It's all it's all based on a comic book. Jonathan J. Pod or not JVL is a big fan of the comic book series on which it is based. Jon Podhoretz: Oh, so he may he may show up and so that's all we had a couple of weeks and we'll talk about it. Yeah. But the but but I don't I don't Jon Podhoretz: really care about Kate Bishop. And this is a problem I think with the again with the the Marvel shows in general is that they keep Jon Podhoretz: trying to introduce us to people who I don't we just don't really care that much about not compelling. So so what I did really like Jon Podhoretz: about what I did. So okay, so here's the basic setup. Kate Bishop is a she's a girl during the attack on New York. She grows up and wants to be Jon Podhoretz: like Hawkeye. She is Jon Podhoretz: doing archery and taking martial arts lessons. And she is, you know, becoming a great fighter and whatever. And as as a auction Jon Podhoretz: for her fancy private school is going on gangsters attack and they try and they try and steal the black market auction items, one of Jon Podhoretz: which is a watch from the Avengers Tower, which I assume means time travel is going to be involved at some point. Isn't that what
Guest00:02:56Jon Podhoretz: happened in Endgame? Isn't that because of a watch?
Sonny00:02:59Jon Podhoretz: Wasn't wasn't that what happened? Jon Podhoretz: Too much. Jon Podhoretz: But, but, but, but more importantly, what they steal, but but so what what what ends up in this auction is the the Ronin suit that Jon Podhoretz: Hawkeye used to wear. She puts it on, she fights them off. And now everybody thinks she's Ronin. And so Hawkeye has to come in Jon Podhoretz: and save her. And so this is where the series actually picks up once Jeremy Renner actually gets involved in the Jon Podhoretz: proceedings. Once Jeremy Renner shows up, and is, you know, kind of trying to make his way Jon Podhoretz: through to helping her, and when he has to do things like go to a LARPing event in Central Park.
Vic00:03:35Jon Podhoretz: I didn't even know what that was. I didn't realize what that stood for.
Sonny00:03:38Jon Podhoretz: So yeah, so so LARPing is live action role playing, he shows up and he wants to reclaim the Ronin costume that some Jon Podhoretz: firefighter stole out of out of an apartment. Once all of this is happening, it's a much better show. It's like Jeremy Jon Podhoretz: Renner is actually very, he's very winning and very personable, very funny. Jon Podhoretz: And I just don't care about anything else involved with this. I don't care about this. Like, I don't care about Lady Jon Podhoretz: Hawkeye. You know, I don't care about I don't care about her family. I don't care about what's going on with the guy Jon Podhoretz: from Better Call Saul, who is playing the playing the the the soon to be stepfather. I just don't I don't I don't care Jon Podhoretz: about any of that at all. I just want to see I just want to see Jeremy Renner just kind of be like dismissive of people Jon Podhoretz: Well, let's walk around New York City.
Vic00:04:31Victorino Matusontecchio: It's really because of Jeremy Renner obviously carries this because Hawkeye himself is not for me, at least an Victorino Matus weapchio: amazing superhero. He's actually not he doesn't have superpowers. He's really good at what he does. Jon Podhoretz: Just Robin Hood. He's just modern Robin Hood. Victorino Matus caregchio: He's good with the arrows until you run out of arrows, I guess. And he's a good fighter in general. But other Victorino Matussuspensefulchio: than that, I mean, I just didn't find it that compelling. But, you know, it's a Marvel movie. And when you Victorino Matusÿÿchio: talked about the production values, Sonny. Victorino Matus WOODRchio: Man, there is not, you know, you've heard me talk about how how much I hate CGI and I'm so sick of CGI. CGI fire. Victorino Matus��chio: CGI fire is the worst. And it reminded me of that Angelina Jolie movie. Victorino MatusENNISchio: Yeah, you know, whereas Christopher Dolan would have burned, you know, have an actual for an actual for he would have started a whole forest fire in California for the scene. And this is just so ridiculous. Jon, do you watch these other Marvel movies or you just happen to turn it on and you ended up watching?
Guest00:05:30Jon Sorrentino: I've watched I've watched all of them. I've watched all the shows. And two things occur to me, one of which is that if you don't measure them against the movies, but you measure them against the other Marvel TV shows over the last 10 years, they're so much better. They're so much better than whatever that ABC show about shield agents agents of shield or or or the Netflix Daredevil show or the Netflix show about Jessica Jones or what I don't read any of these comic books. But you want to talk about like lousy production values and cheap looking sets and bad special effects and all of that. They bring a high gloss and a high sheen to these things. That is that is pretty remarkable for streaming for for for a streaming show and a streaming service. I think that's true of this too, which has a an interesting sort of shaggy dog quality, which is this setting. It's New York at Christmas time. Hawkeye is only in New York to serve show his kids in New York for a couple of days. They the most inspired thing in the early episodes is this. He goes to see a music Hamilton like musical about Captain America. And you see the final number which is performed by the the guy who was the lead actor and rent Adam Pascal. Well, where it's all about how which is called I could do this all day where they all sing and dance about how they're saving New York City. And and it's incredibly clever. And and throughout the show, there are little things where you see the poster for the show on a bus and you know, you sort of and and he hates it. He hates it. He hates watching it. It reminds him of, you know, of, of Black Widow and and and her death. And and he, you know, he's like, get a urinal in the theater and there's a guy next to him in the urinal and while he's peeing, asking him if they could take a selfie and stuff like that. I just thought a lot of that was very clever. Like not as is always true of these Marvel things. It's these, the peculiarities of character when they let these, these characters breathe a little bit. You know, that great thing, right? That DC's, well, this is your point, Sonny. DC's about gods, right? It's about living in a world of gods. And the Marvel stuff is all about what would happen if an ordinary person got extraordinary abilities and how would that change them? And he's the most interesting version of this because, right, he doesn't have any superpowers. He is just fantastically skilled. He is a fantastically skilled person. And in the course of the Avengers movies, I always thought this was very interestingly rendered that, that, that he what they would do with him and shooting the arrows and stuff was always incredibly clever and unexpected and what he could do with them. And, and you haven't seen the third episode, which, which I watched tonight just before we did this. But there's a, there's a whole bit about what you can do with these arrows and what he knows about like the thermal, not the thermodynamics, but you know, whatever, the aeronautics of these arrows and stuff that is really, really clever. And so the cleverness is what, is what makes it for me. The plot is pretty lousy. Um, the only reason I was familiar with this at all is that, is that, is that the absent Jonathan tragedy that he's not on this cause he, he basically begged me to read the comic book, whereas I guess they call it the run. Uh, that is this, uh, that is this series that posits that, uh, Hawkeye is living as a super in a New York city apartment building. He's broke and it's all about him. And this is hinted at the show, but not, not, not much of it. Uh, basically he's physically very damaged. You know, he's crit, it's sort of like he's wounded and he's got broken bones. He's got it in the show. He's got a hearing aid. That's the main thing. But he's like, he's like a wreck because he's not, he's done all these things alongside superheroes, but it's not in fact himself as superhero. And he has the scars to prove it. And then this girl comes along who has essentially emulated him as a, as an archer. And he's like, I'd better show you how to do this so that your body doesn't end up destroyed and wrecked like mine. And in that sense, it's kind of clever. I, I don't like comic books or graphic novels really. So I could appreciate, I, I, I apologize to Jonathan that I didn't like it enough. Um, but, uh, I will say this, that the third episode, which you haven't gotten to you guys, um, has a really, really fantastic 15 minute chase scene, comic chase scene through Queens to Brooklyn on the, they're on the, they're on the Brooklyn bridge, they're on a subway and, and, and it's funny and vivid. And the two of them are really good team. And Jeremy Renner is a very, I mean, he's not really underrated cause he was nominated for two Oscars in successive years, but yeah, he's got a bad reputation and people don't seem to like him personally. And the gossip columns treat him badly. He is really a remarkably good actor and can do so much with so little. Like you said, you just want to see him walking around New York, you know, being, you know, bitter and insulting and stuff like that. But he does an enormous amount with his eyes. He does a lot with his body language. He looks a lot older now than just at
Sonny00:11:28a few years ago. I don't know if they do that intentionally or just when he when he like breathes heavily on scene it like it's like, oh, I recognize that sigh. Yeah, that's like the most human. I think I've always liked about the Hawkeye character, at least in the movie versions is that he's he essentially has like a normal family life. That's totally secret from everybody else. Like there's a very funny moment in the second Avengers movie when he's like, we're gonna go hang out at my we're gonna go hide at my house and you expect it to be like you know, a shack or a hovel or something. He shows up as Linda Cardellini with yes, you know, three kids in the out out in the woods. And I like I like them. I like how they work that into this in this show. And the best thing about it, again, the best thing about the character to me is just like, he's he's like, he's a normal guy. And when he when he goes to the Chinese restaurant, right in the first episode, he's trying to pay the bill. And the waiter comes up to him and says, You saved the world, you don't have to pay. He actually looks annoyed. Yeah, he looks annoyed that he doesn't say like that, Sonny. I think he said you don't have to pay. I think that was Vic Mattis. That was Victorino Mattis, the Filipino American guest host of the show. Not me. You know, but but but like that, that feels again, that feels very real. It feels like he constantly has this weight on his shoulders that he doesn't want and never asked for and like almost resents. Yeah.
Guest00:12:58Well, if you remember the I think Endgame, you know, those two movies, those two, the last two Avengers movies. Endgame and Infinity War. Infinity War. Right. So they're really, really good. And Endgame, which is the last one, right? Infinity War is the second to last one. Yeah. Begins with him discovering that his wife and children have disappeared off the face of the earth. Yes. Right. It's just and that's where these movies are genius. That's where Kevin Feige, I give Kevin Feige credit because that's the sort of the overhead. He's the producer. He's the guy who saw this all entire, which is, you know, the horror of this annihilation, this half the annihilation of half of the universe. Is brought in stark relief because he's the normal guy. He's the guy who just has this normal family life in Nebraska or wherever he is. And he's got a normal wife and a normal kid. He's not super powered. He's not, you know, he doesn't have any ability to do anything. And he's just standing there and his family is obliterated. Right. Entirely vanished. Not, you know, when it starts out, you're thinking, oh, okay, it's half of this, half of that. Okay, it's 50%. No, but it doesn't affect everybody that way. In his case, it was, you know, 75% of the family. And you got to roll out. Yeah, that's a bad beat. Yeah. So we like to call that. Yeah. And I just think I just think in general, you know, his role in these movies is to be us like he and again, like, he's the achievable superhero, like, you know, you don't have to go through a gamma field or, you know, have an artificial heart placed in you or, you know, be put in a machine or something. You just have to get really, really, really, really, really good at shooting an arrow. And you like anybody can do that. And that's what makes this a particularly interesting now, what going through the paces of the plot, which seems to involve a guy who's obsessed with swords and another guy, and a rich woman who seems to be up to no good also. And then there's like,
Sonny00:15:28like this, these Russians and something is like, who cares? Like, were you kidding me? I mean, it's like, who, who, who, who care? You don't even know who these people are. And then, yeah, this is the same problem that Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Yeah, which I didn't even skip that one entirely, which I don't know. John, did you watch it? I watched all of it. Yeah. So I watched the whole thing. And I was I could not have cared less about any of the actual characters in the show. The only thing that was interesting about it. Was this the idea at the heart of it, that the new Captain America was totally outclassed and outgunned by the fact that he was not superpowered in a world of superpowered, you know, villains and heroes. And like the the decision that he he takes to like surreptitiously take the super soldier serum is like, it's actually really interesting. And there's there's a whole bunch of like different ideas at work about, like, where does power come from? Does it come from being a symbol of America? Does it come from within whatever? That was the only thing that was interesting in it. And I'm still and I get you get the sense that there is something similar at work here in the second episode when Kate Bishop is talking about how Clint needs to be, you know, he needs to inspire people, he needs to, you know, give them something to hope for. There's there's an idea here that I hope comes out in future episodes that gets us beyond the basic mechanics of like,
Guest00:16:57rich people and their their secrets. Yeah, no, it's just a it's just a just a just a bad plot. Because like you say, if these if and when these shows work, like Falcon and the Winter Soldier only worked when the two guys, you know, Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie and they were bantering. Yeah, because you like them. And they they had a vibe. They were funny together. They had a vibe and they discussed this pretty much must have discovered it on set or something like that. In when they were making Civil War, or something like that. And then it turned out that they had this, they had this the these, this comic rhythm together. And then they they constructed this ludicrous PC plot about black Captain Amanda, no one's gonna allow a black person to be captain and there was a black Captain America and they hit him because no one could ever know that there was such they put him in a prison, which is sort of hard to understand because how could you put Captain America in a prison he couldn't break out of his bitter and he's living in Baltimore and a shack and you know, it's all like what the hell and, and they had a pandemic plot that they had to throw out and somehow revise very hastily when COVID happened. So the whole show made no sense. This one has this convoluted plot and you just don't care about the plot. You guys didn't care about Hayley Steinfeld, either. I think she's pretty cute, but yes, she's fine. No, no, no, there's no question. Yeah, I think she's cute, too. But yeah, you know, but but but but he he just he outclasses her and it's just this classic thing about these movies, which is that the Marvel the MCU, that is, by the way, entirely absent from the Eternals, right, which is one reason the Eternals is a disaster is the casting of these movies is just so really brilliant. Right. I mean, you know, one after the other after the other. And they did. And he did it again with this guy, the guy who plays Shang-Chi, whose name I'm now late at night. I can't remember. Simu Liu, who is just great and very charismatic came out. He was like on a he was like on a Canadian sitcom about a convenience store. Yeah. You know, I mean, and they pull them out of nowhere the way they pulled and stock photos. Right. And they pull them out of the way they pulled Chris Hemsworth. The way he pulled Chris Hemsworth out of nowhere to be Thor and the way he pulled, you know, Tom Holland out of nowhere to be Spider-Man. Like it's it's genius. This is really the question. And and Florence Pugh as the new villain Black Widow person who I guess. Oh, yeah. Supposedly going to show up in a later later episode of this. Oh, but I mean, that's that's that like, you know, if they can't get more Jeremy Renner's. You know that there's going to be a fast fade. They tried to introduce 10 new people in the Eternals. Oh, there isn't. And there is not one of them can say, oh, for 10. You don't remember Kingo. It's been 30 minutes, which is one of the weirdest things that has ever happened. Did you? I saw somebody. I saw somebody say that the reason why is because he accidentally ate a carb. See that? Somebody said that. His body blew up like Deacon Frost at the end of Blade. Anyway, but I will say this, which is that there is this third episode of Hawkeye. And if you can make it through the first two, which is, which are there, you know, there's like a lot of setup. The third episode is just like leagues ahead of the first two in terms of
Vic00:20:57just like, you know, manic, manic enjoyment. I have no idea where it's, where it's going and I don't care. There are two more characters that are introduced that I don't care about them either. Do you know what the musical, and I love how they call it, not the Avengers, but Rogers the musical, which is great. It's all about Steve Rogers. It reminded me of, I actually, I actually wrote a review for the standard at the time of Spider-Man turned off the dark. Did you see that? I didn't. I didn't because my kid, I didn't because like one of my kids was just born.
Guest00:21:27Around then and I couldn't, I couldn't get to it, but you know, was something. Do you remember that the Captain America, the first Avenger, which is like a terrific movie, Tommy Lee Jones has that, has that fantastic bit where he's forced to be a character in a USO show. Like he's, he's not actually doing anything except like traveling around in a USO show saluting and there's this like ridiculous production number that's been written around him. That's great. Yeah. That's what I mean. Like they, they take care, they take care with things that other things throw away and, and that's what, that's what gives this stuff the glow, you know, the glow that it has. Oh, the other thing, I guess, in terms of these great actors is that, you know, last, last episode of Loki where Jonathan Major shows up as the, I guess the next bad guy. Oh, Kang. I, I, I, it's just a kind of brilliance that very few people have. And again, you know, he, they idiotically let Chloe Zhang edit, run that, run that, you know, Avengers, the, the Eternals into the ground. And I hope they don't do that anymore. That's it.
Sonny00:23:17So we're, just as a programming note, we're, we're not going to be talking about Hawkeye next week on the bonus episode. We are going to be talking about what, Vic?
Vic00:23:27Oh, we're going to be talking about, because it's now on Netflix, Wild Things.
Sonny00:23:32Wild Things.
Vic00:23:33Wild Things. Now there's a quadrant.
Guest00:23:35There, that.
Sonny00:23:36That is a quadrant killer. That is a.
Vic00:23:39I'm thinking about it right now and I'm giving it a good rating. That's.
Sonny00:23:44Thanks. They're all, they're all, I'm sure, I'm sure it's fine.
Spot something wrong in this episode? Suggest a correction →
Comments
Loading…