#43. Val Kilmer Draft
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This bonus, Patreon-only episode skips the usual opening banter and dives straight into a snake draft of the hosts' favorite Val Kilmer movies, a follow-up to the previous week's Val documentary review, with the rule that each host must draft one film apiece from the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s plus a free-choice floater. Vic, picking first, builds a team of Heat, Real Genius, Alexander, and True Romance; Sonny goes with Tombstone, Spartan, Top Secret!, and, as his floater, the cult favorite MacGruber (which JVL says he'd have drafted too, except he thought the movie was only okay); and JVL assembles what the others agree is the strongest, most mainstream slate — Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Top Gun, The Doors, and Willow — with Sonny and Vic both fruitlessly trying to trade him out of Willow for Spartan or Alexander. Along the way JVL detours into a personal aside about his failed teenage bid to become a conservatory musician: he was accepted to Eastman, Oberlin, and Peabody but rejected by Juilliard, and chose a dual-degree track at Johns Hopkins/Peabody over Columbia's Juilliard partnership, a plan that lasted about two weeks. The trio also riff on "quadrants" becoming shorthand for a movie's sex/nudity content, briefly confuse Mission to Mars and Red Planet, and shout out underrated Kilmer credits like Thunderheart, The Ghost and the Darkness, and the gloriously deranged The Island of Dr. Moreau. Sonny promises a Patreon poll so listeners can vote on whose draft is best, with the winner claiming a trip to the Island of Dr. Moreau — and the episode closes on a runner about Norm Keesing, Marlon Brando's IMDb-credited stand-in in that film, whose padded résumé of bit parts sends the hosts into a fit of "Norm" callbacks.
From the show notes
On a special, bonus, members-only-forever episode, the guys draft Val Kilmer movies. I'm going to publish a second post in an hour with a poll for you to vote on who had the best draft. Winner gets a trip to the Island of Dr. Moreau.
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to a special Val Kilmer edition of the Sub-Beacon. I'm Victor Matus along with Jonathan V. Last and Sonny Bunch. Just a reminder, Sub-Beacon is available through Patreon. Go to Sub-Beacon.com. You'll easily find us. Please subscribe and tell your friends. This is, we haven't done a snake draft in a while.
Sonny00:00:33Not done a draft in a while.
Vic00:00:34Yeah, so this is pretty exciting and it's for one of our favorite and a Sub-Beacon favorite actor, Val Kilmer. We just finished the documentary. Sonny, why don't you explain how the draft works?
Sonny00:00:49All right, so we are drafting Val Kilmer movies. Not necessarily Val Kilmer roles. I don't think we're judging, this will be judged based on the quality of the role in particular. It's the totality of the movie. But basically what we, we're picking four movies each. We're doing four rounds and the only rule is that you have to have at least one movie from the 1980s, one movie from the 1990s and one movie from the 2000s. We decided not to make the 2010s a requirement because, you know, the idea of Vic having to pick Twixt is a bridge too far. For, for most of us, but the, the, but again, rule is very simple. Just one from the eighties, nineties and aughts. And then the fourth can be a floater can come from it. It could come from the 2010s if you, if you want to pick something from the 2010s, but and again, and so we're going to, we'll, we'll have our team. I'll, I'll read off the list of teams that we have drafted the teams of movies to, so you don't have to sit there and do it. Don't scribble along at home. I'll, I'll read them all off at the end. And then we're going to let you guys vote on the winner. So I'll put up a, So I'll put up a post at the Patriot on with a pole. You can vote for either JBL or Vic or myself as the winner. And again, your, your vote listener, kind listener, dear listener is based on which four movies are the best, not, not which four Val Kilmer performances, but the four movies
Vic00:02:20that you like the most, the kindest thing you've done.
Sonny00:02:23So Vic has the first pick. I complained. He complained so much the last time we did one of these drafts feeling and being in the
Vic00:02:34middle. I hate being in the middle. I feel like I'm getting screwed. Yeah. Well, that happens when you're in the middle, you get screwed both ways. Okay. Well, thank you. I am honored to have the first pick and Sonny, you threw me off cause I was actually thinking of personal character performances until you mentioned totality totality of that. I have just made a last second change. And so here we go. The first pick for a Val Kilmer movie is 19, uh, 95s heat heat.
Sonny00:03:04Great.
Vic00:03:05Thank you. Where he plays Chris Sheherlis, uh, and he has to, uh, walk away because of the heat and what's her name? She's the heat coming around the corner, even though he was married to her kind of married
JVL00:03:19to, uh, for me, the sun rises and sets on her. Yeah. That's what he says. He's the Charlene.
Vic00:03:25Yeah. You know, um, Judd. Ashley? Yeah. Right. The character name. But it is also great.
Sonny00:03:32That too, by the way. It is also just a great, great, uh, performance by me, by Val Kilmer. Yes. I mean, it just is. Yeah.
Vic00:03:44Yeah. He must've been so happy to be doing that after Batman.
Sonny00:03:48Yeah. Okay. Uh, okay. Uh, I'm up next. Um, I'm going to stay in the 1990s and go with tombstone. Tombstone. Tombstone is my pick.
Vic00:03:59I thought you were going to say Batman forever. Are you sure?
Sonny00:04:01Are you sure, Sonny? I'm not going to say that. I pick tombstone cause I don't want to get stuck with Batman forever.
JVL00:04:06All right. So I'm going to go to the aughts and I'm going to take kiss, kiss, bang, bang, which, uh, is a fabulous movie, which also, uh, kills the quadrants, I believe might be one of the all time greatest quadrant movies ever might be a hair over two hours.
Vic00:04:32I fell in love with Michelle. Well, here's two reasons. Michelle Monahan.
JVL00:04:36I love Michelle Monahan and Larry Miller's in it and Larry and Larry. So I, one of Larry's great stories was for his day cause he did that whole thing I think in one day on set, uh, was that it was him, RDJ and Val Kilmer sitting around, uh, just, just. With Downey and Larry Miller both geeking out over, uh, tombstone and his performance in doc holiday and just talking to him about where he came up with all the different things and just, you know, his entire actually process for coming up with the character, which I think is awesome.
Sonny00:05:13He didn't demand that Larry Miller just push him on a hammock.
JVL00:05:17No, he didn't.
Sonny00:05:18He wasn't just laying there as gay Perry saying, Hey Larry, push me on that. Push me harder. Push me one more time.
JVL00:05:27So, uh, so kiss, kiss, bang, bang with my number one and my number two again, my number two is top gun and I, you know, I can't believe that you guys let it, how come I don't get
Vic00:05:38to, are you sure I don't get to Sonny getting screwed again?
JVL00:05:42Here is, here is the thing. Did you guys, of all the things that I, and I am a real Juilliard nerd because I, uh, I, Juilliard was the only conservatory I did not get into. Did you guys know this? Well, I thought you were a plan.
Vic00:05:56I did not know that. I didn't know you would apply to conservatories.
JVL00:05:58Yeah. Yeah. I applied to four conservatories and you got into three of the four. I got into, uh, the Eastman school of music, the Oberlin conservatory and the Peabody conservatory. And I did not get into Juilliard, but you, instead of, but instead of going to Peabody
Vic00:06:14Peabody, uh, or Eastman, you, you, you chose something entirely different.
JVL00:06:20No. So I, I, uh, I only applied to colleges with dual degrees. Dual degree programs in conjunction with a conservatory. And Juilliard has a dual degree of Columbia, got into Columbia, didn't get into Juilliard. And so, because I'm a genius, I said, I will not go to an Ivy league school at Columbia because I can't go to conservatory while I am there. I will go to Johns Hopkins university, uh, so that I can get my, my degree in musical performance at the Peabody conservatory while I am there. And that lasted about two weeks. So good choices, good choices.
Sonny00:06:55I did not know any of this and, uh, yeah.
JVL00:07:00So I have always had a, a Juilliard fetish, but, but the thing is also, I, unlike, unlike Georgetown who I hate for not taking me, Juilliard was right. I was not, I was not good enough to, to go to Juilliard, nothing.
Vic00:07:16You wouldn't have even been fully committed to Juilliard, but you would have been fully committed to both.
JVL00:07:22You would have been, uh, I could not have gotten it. This is the, they, it's just too good. They're too good. They, they take people who are basically polished opera singers already by age 18.
Vic00:07:34I just, I just would have thought that if you got into one of those, that would be like a full time thing, like fully devoted to the conservatory as opposed to like you both, you just, you just gotta work harder. Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Sonny. Sonny, where are you going?
Sonny00:07:51It's been ages since I've been able to pick a movie. Uh, I'm, I, I'm going to go with Spartan because I don't have another really movie from the two thousands that I, that I would want to pick now. Granted, I don't think Vic was going to pick Spartan probably.
JVL00:08:03Yes he was. Yes he was. No, I haven't. Spartan is underrated.
Sonny00:08:07I haven't seen Spartan. Spartan is great. Spartan is a great movie. If people haven't seen it, it's a directed by David Mamet. Um, it has a, it has a, a great performance, uh, by Kristen Bell as the junkie daughter of the president who gets, who gets kidnapped and, uh, and, and Val Kilmer's character, uh, has to track her down and save her. Um, but it's just this, it's this great kind of mean spirited, uh, David Mamet's, uh, hundred minute action programmer. It's fantastic. Everyone should see it. To the point where I like, I was trying, I was going to watch it last night, but in preparation for this show, um, because I thought Spartan, Spartan and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang both got very short shrift in the documentary. We did, we did not get nearly enough time with those movies. Um, I guess there was too much other stuff to talk about. The, uh, those movies are both great. So I'm, I'm going with Spartan. That's my pick for the two thousands.
JVL00:08:59And I would say to Victorino, cause I, I don't know that you've seen Spartan, but it might be Kilmer's best performance as an actor because in Spartan he has to, and remember when you act, you've sort of fully inhabit the role and he has to, to inhabit the idea of having teenage Kristen Bell offer him sex and not being interested in it. Oh come on. Oh stop it. And that, that performance, and he's very convincing in, in pretending to not want to have sex with the teenage Kristen Bell. It's really something. I don't know how he did it.
?00:09:37Thank you.
Sonny00:09:38Vic. Okay.
Vic00:09:40Uh, do I get. Your second round pick.
Sonny00:09:42Do I get two? You finally get to pick again.
Vic00:09:44Two. You get two back to back. Okay.
Sonny00:09:47I get two cause I only got one that first time. So.
Vic00:09:49Yeah, but you got Heat. You got the best. I did. Okay. Uh, and he didn't do that many and people, I don't, you know, there's a, I don't care. I don't care because I know what the cult pick is going to be. I'm not going to pick the cult pick. I'm going to pick what I like and what I like is real.
JVL00:10:09Willow. No.
Vic00:10:11Well, I thought you were going to pick top secret gags, a lot of gags, but a real genius is just, I mean, it's just great. And not only that, um, Kilmer has so many great lines. Yeah. And he delivers them well. I mean, he did. So it's like, yeah, okay. He's funny. He can do comedy from top secret, but he really did it in a much more understated way. And it's such a, in, in real genius. And it's such a great eighties movie about working for the university and realizing that they were doing stuff for the government for our star Wars program. And then the whole thing, it's just perfect. Okay. Uh, I need to pick something from the arts. Is that what you're telling me? That's just one of the cruelest things ever, because I was going to say, uh, the Prince of Egypt, but that's 1998 and literally have not seen any movie he's done after that. Uh, but I'm going to guess, you know, uh, let's see here. Well, people seem to love, I'm not going to, I'm not going to Alexander was, that's Oliver
Sonny00:11:10Stone's Alexander, Oliver Stone's Alexander. Oh my Lord. Uh, it's a good quadrant movie except for length.
Vic00:11:16Yeah. That's ridiculous. Oh, you know what? How about red planet? Why don't you put me down for red planet? No, no, no, no. I'm just kidding.
Sonny00:11:24I haven't seen it. No, you said red planet. You said red planet. No, no, no, no, no. I changed my mind.
Vic00:11:29Okay, fine. Pick something else then. I changed my mind. No, no, no, no. Let me, let me give me a chance. I misspoke. I misspoke. I misspoke. Is the, is the missing the one with Ron Howard? Is that Ron Howard's the missing with Tommy Lee Jones who plays the Indian?
Sonny00:11:41Uh, yeah. It's Tommy Lee Jones. People are dying listening to me. I'm, I understand this, but people, Tommy Lee Jones is in that movie.
Vic00:11:47Yes. And apparently, and apparently, uh, Val Kilmer's in it. Yeah. But no, you know what? I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give, I'll give Alexander a shot. I mean, I like most Oliver stone movies. How bad can it be?
JVL00:12:03Picking movies.
Sonny00:12:04He hasn't seen, it's like, ah, I've heard of this director. So ridiculous. I actually like Alexander. I like, I, I, uh, Colin Farrell is very good in it. Yeah. That's the Colin Farrell star. Yeah. Angelina Jolie is very good in it.
Vic00:12:18I get, I get confused between red planet and what was that awful movie? Mission to Mars.
JVL00:12:23Yes. With Tim Robbins.
Vic00:12:25Don Cheadle and Tim Robbins. Man. And Connie, Connie. Connie and Nielsen.
Sonny00:12:29Nielsen. Yeah. Man. Brian De Palma's Stanley Kubrick movie. Not as good as Brian De Palma's many, many Hitchcock movies.
Vic00:12:35Pretty sure JVL, you and I saw that movie together.
JVL00:12:38Mm-hmm. We both laughed when, uh, Connie Nielsen took off her helmet in space and froze instantly.
Sonny00:12:44No, that was Tim Robbins. I think. Didn't they both?
Vic00:12:47Maybe it was Tim Robbins. You're right, you're right. Tim Robbins froze in space. It was definitely Tim Robbins. Or, uh, uh, Don Cheadle. Dance the night away. Don Cheadle was like left behind and so he's like old but not in a cool, uh, interstellar way. No.
Sonny00:13:00It was more like.
Vic00:13:01No.
?00:13:02He's just gone crazy.
Sonny00:13:03Yeah. He went crazy. Uh, all right. It's my pick. Uh, I, I need to pick something from the 1980s still. Um, so I will go, I'm going to go with Top Secret. I'm going to be the, I'm going to be the hipster Zucker brothers. That's me.
Vic00:13:19Yes.
Sonny00:13:20Fan and pick top secrets, which is a great movie, which is like actually like a great debut star performance. I like that movie. That movie really holds up as like a goof. I, I'm not a huge fan actually of the Zucker style of like zany gag after zany gag. But I, I, this is probably my favorite of their films. If I had to pick one, it would be this and not airplane.
JVL00:13:44So uh, I, I have the eighties and I have the aughts and so I. You know, I'm going to say the doors and I'm going to say the doors, not because I like the movie cause I don't really, but I just out of respect to Val himself for whom this was clearly his favorite performance.
Vic00:14:07I saw that in the theater and it was a long, but uh, it did pretty well in some quadrants.
Sonny00:14:16I like the word. I like how the word quadrants has become a code word.
Vic00:14:19For nudity. Code word for sex scenes. Code word for nudity. Graphic sex. Yeah. Yeah. What are they? Mainstream movies. What is the, uh, SC is the content, strong sexual content.
Sonny00:14:30SC. SC. That's what you want. Whatever. Yeah. Well, you know what? SC is like sexual content. I could be in anything, but strong sexual content.
Vic00:14:38Strong sexual content. I got to settle in. I got to settle in for this movie. All right.
JVL00:14:42Yeah. And that leads me with my float. Right. So then I, I have my, my wild card and uh, you know what? I'm going to go Willow.
Sonny00:14:51Willow. Okay.
JVL00:14:53I like Willow.
?00:14:54Works for me.
Sonny00:14:55Uh, so my float, my floater pick, I'm going to go outside of the decades that we've been assigned. I'm going to pick MacGruber.
JVL00:15:05I knew it because you loved that and you mentioned it. You mentioned it. You know, I, I would have picked it except that I saw it and I thought it was only okay. Wow.
Sonny00:15:16You're crazy. Thank you.
Vic00:15:18You're crazy. You saved me some time because Sonny was raving about it.
Sonny00:15:21Yeah. That movie has more, that movie made me laugh out loud more times, uh, just like watching it by myself in the, on my couch than any movie I have seen in recent years. I was, I just like, uh, I, I loved it. Very funny. Uh, and Val Kilmer is, Val Kilmer is like kind of a minor part in it, but as, as a movie qua movie, it is probably one of my favorites on this, this whole list. All right.
Vic00:15:49Let's pick. Yes. And, and again, I'd like to stress for our listeners, totality, the word is totality. So you know what movie I'm taking? True Romance.
?00:15:58Yeah.
Vic00:15:59Okay.
Sonny00:16:00Silence.
Vic00:16:01What? You're surprised. No, that's fine. I'm not surprised. Oh. Sonny. Silent.
Sonny00:16:08What do you, what would you have picked?
Vic00:16:09I mean, he's barely in the movie. Well, yeah.
Sonny00:16:11Mm. But totality. I mean, I, he's got a, he's got a, he's got a credit on IMDb. He's got a credit.
Vic00:16:16He's got a credit. Do you think it's cheating or should I take something else? I'm surprised nobody took Thunderheart. I didn't see it. Underrated.
Sonny00:16:23But that's the. Yeah. Thunderheart's good.
JVL00:16:26I like Thunderheart.
Vic00:16:27Thunderheart is good.
JVL00:16:28Oh, Ghost in the Darkness. That's another one.
Sonny00:16:30Ghost in the Darkness. I like that. I frankly, I like, I, I like The Island of Dr. Moreau because it's an insane movie. It's actually, it's actually like a deeply deranged and terrible movie, but it's fun to watch because of how bad it is. So.
Vic00:16:42You know, it sounds like a very serious movie, but I've never seen it. I also like Batman Forever.
Sonny00:16:47What? Batman Forever. I like, I'm not going to, I don't love it. I don't, I, it is not a top tier Batman movie or anything.
Vic00:16:53I was going to say the Salt, what is the Salt and Sea?
Sonny00:16:55The Salt and Sea. Yeah. That's. I think it was like a straight to HBO movie. Some murder mystery.
JVL00:17:00Oh. No, no. It was out. It was a, it was an August movie. It was a, in one of those movies it was like, hey, it could be a summer blockbuster. Then gets pushed to August. Yeah.
Sonny00:17:08Yeah. All right. All right. So let's, let's read through, uh, the, the teams here. Vic, who drafted first, he took Heat. Real Genius, Alexander, and True Romance, that, that is, uh, Vic's lineup. We'll, we'll get that, uh, together for you guys in the, in the, in the, I'll put it in the comments, I guess. I don't want to spoil it.
Vic00:17:32And a box of nerds.
Sonny00:17:33Sorry. I don't want to spoil it. Uh, Sonny's team, Tombstone, Spartan, Top Secret, and MacGruber, a lot of cult, cult movies on this one. I don't know if that's going to be.
Vic00:17:43Yeah. Your, your, your acolytes will, will go crazy.
Sonny00:17:45I don't know. I don't know about this. Uh, JBL, Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, Top Gun, which fell to the second round, shockingly. Shockingly. Uh, uh, JBL, uh, where, where, there we go, The Doors, and Willow.
JVL00:17:59That's a, that's solid. Yeah. You know, Sonny, your team's best. I, uh. I don't know. If I could have gotten, if I could have gotten Spartan instead of Willow, if I could trade Willow and a player to be named later for Spartan, then I would like my team the best. No, I'm not going to trade you.
Sonny00:18:13I'm not going to trade Willow to, that's a, well, that's a terrible trade for me. Why would I ever make that trade? No, I think your team, your team is the, uh, I, I think is the, like, uh, clear mainstream favorite here. You know, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, everybody loves Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Top Gun, uh, obviously is the biggest movie on this list, probably, just in terms of box office. Um, The Doors, I don't love The Doors, but, you know, it's like Val Kilmer's very good role. Willow, I think Willow's great. People, I, I don't.
JVL00:18:40You know, I, I thought real hard about having my, my first two picks be, uh, uh. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Spartan. Just to.
Sonny00:18:50Instead of Top Gun. Just to dominate the category.
JVL00:18:52No, just because I, I, I knew Spartan would get snatched up, uh, and I, I just like it so much.
Vic00:18:58Great movie. I will trade you, Alexander, for Top Gun.
?00:19:00I think that's, that's a good thing.
JVL00:19:01I, I've traded Alexander for Willow.
Sonny00:19:07We're not doing any trades. You want Willow?
JVL00:19:09There's no trades.
Sonny00:19:10Okay. Sorry, I didn't realize. Your teams are what they are. Your teams are what they are. So, anyway, uh, I hope everybody enjoys this. Uh, again, I'll, I'll put a poll up. In the, in the, I, I might have to do a separate post with a poll in it. I don't know exactly how, uh, Patreon's system works. I probably should have looked this up before we did the episode. But, uh, we, we, we might have to do a separate, uh, uh, uh, post with the poll in it. But once I put that up, go there, vote on it, uh, let us make your, make your voice heard and we'll announce winners on the, the main episode the next week.
JVL00:19:42Hey, Sonny, I had a question before we get out of here. Sure. In Isle of Dr. Moreau, is, uh, is Norm credited? No idea.
Sonny00:19:55Great question. No, no.
Vic00:19:57I assume he has a stand in. No, I was pretty sure that he was joking that it was, in fact, Marlon Brando looking ridiculous. No.
Sonny00:20:03No, that's definitely, it's definitely not Marlon Brando.
Vic00:20:05Yeah, they have so much stuff with the silver and everything. You're telling me it really, really wasn't him? I don't think it was him. It really, really wasn't him. I don't know. I thought he was so large that I figured if he had all that stuff on his head. All the stuff on his face.
Sonny00:20:15Well, there's no shortage of big fat guys in the world. There's only one Marlon Brando, but there's a thousand people who weigh as much as Marlon Brando does. David Thewlis.
Vic00:20:255,000 pounds. David Thewlis going Section 8. It really felt like they were on an island.
JVL00:20:29Norman Keesing credited on IMDb as the stand in for Marlon Brando and he's credited, he's listed as Norm Keesing and, oh my God, oh my God, this guy has a bunch of credits.
Sonny00:20:44What else has he been in?
JVL00:20:46He has been in Other Halves, Prisoners, Savage Islands as crewman number three, one of those blighters, Jacko, Mortimer's Patch, Beyond Reasonable Doubt. The sequel to Reasonable Doubt.
Sonny00:21:06This is amazing to me that this guy is- Norm. Norm. Norm.
?00:21:13Norm.
Sonny00:21:14Norm. All right.
?00:21:16I'm sure it's mine.
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