#12. 'Night Stalker: The Hunt for a Serial Killer'
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The main title is the Netflix docuseries Night Stalker: The Hunt for a Serial Killer, about the 1985 investigation into Richard Ramirez's random break-in murders and assaults across Los Angeles, and it splits the hosts sharply. Sonny loved it — watched all three hours in one night — and is delighted by how "weirdly and enjoyably reactionary" it is: uninterested in Ramirez's sob-story childhood, squarely heroizing the two detectives (streetwise Gil Carrillo and Hillside-Strangler veteran Frank Salerno), and rough on the media and liberal California politicians (Dianne Feinstein comes off badly for blowing key details). Vic, gripped at normal speed, finds it deeply disturbing and reads Ramirez as proof of genuine satanic evil, praising the mismatched-cop bookends. JVL is the hater — he watched the last three episodes at 1.5× and calls the direction incompetent: it never conveys the spatial geography of the crimes or the terrifying stop-start timeline, pads every hour with slow-motion rats, cats, and hammers, and ultimately reveals less than three minutes on Ramirez's Wikipedia page; a cop beating a name out of a suspect prompts a ticking-time-bomb/torture aside. The hangout covers Vic's digestive gamble on freezer-burned Häagen-Dazs and his hatred of wasting food (an enormous carrot cake), Sonny's expensive Sucker Punch Mondo-print collection, JVL's coy new "famous friend," a let-broadcast-TV-die vs. streaming-bundles debate, a sobering tangent to the D.C. Sniper terror, and Vic's on-air promise to resume hosting if the show hits 2,000 patrons.
From the show notes
On this week's episode the guy's discuss whether or not ice cream can go bad (and how much trouble Vic's stomach is in). Sonny has a new piece of art on his wall! JVL made a famous friend. And, of course, they talk about the new Netflix docuseries, Night Stalker: The Hunt for a Serial Killer. One exciting note: JVL got Vic to promise to return to hosting duties if we get to 2,000 patrons. So ... you have your work cut out for you. Get us to that number and Vic will be honor-bound as one of Columbus's Knights to resume hosting duties.
Full transcript
Guest00:00:00You got us a serial killer there are no doubt about it this was a pretty sick
Sonny00:00:04individual the so-called night stalker who has terrorized California the same man is suspected in six to eight murders and 25 to 30 attacks he's someone that
Guest00:00:15will go into a home at night and will kill I woke up to a very loud noise to which I responded John and immediately I knew it wasn't John but something was there
JVL00:00:45hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the sub beacon I'm your host JVL along with Sonny Bunch and Victorino Matus just a reminder the sub beacon is available exclusively on patreon at sub beacon comm we also have a store where you can buy sub beacon merch ranging from onesies to headache shirts just visit T public comm and search sub beacon you'll easily find us buy our shirts tell your friends and leave reviews suggestions and bad ideas at sub beacon comm Victorino JVL did you did you notice in the others somebody talking about how it's really important to get me off of the hosting because I'm so bad at it and they say it doesn't it doesn't work to have a sarcastic host who is superior I thought you're not on Twitter I thought you're not I have Shabbos I have Shabbos Twitter's this is why I don't need to be on Twitter because anything important that happens on Twitter people bring it to me I have Shabbos Twitter do what are you
Vic00:01:49saying that I should do the intros you know what I'm saying look I'm not
JVL00:01:52saying anything all I'm saying is that the people the people who are paying good money for this podcast think that you are much much better at this and I don't disagree no I'm happy to do it if you would like
Vic00:02:04I know to have some part what people need to know is that JBL is doing me a great favor he offered to do it and said all I had to do is sit here and shoot the shit but even that requires notes so what the hell maybe next week we'll see whoa we'll see what happens that's what you can't you know Sonny was shaking I see I was shaking my head too Sonny when he met the headache the
Sonny00:02:26headache shirt no one no one knows what that is you have to explain that and of
Vic00:02:30course you can't see me because my video remains broken yeah I'm like there used to be a commercial on on the radio for it was like for sleeping pills for for blind people because their circadian rhythms are off because you know they can't tell when that's you know night or day they can't see and the opening of it was you can't see me cuz I'm on the radio and I can't see you because I'm blind
Sonny00:02:52that's how I feel like right now it's still good I don't like it I don't like
Vic00:02:56it how are you Victorino what's going on buddy I'm doing fine you ever get weird weirdness you ever to have weird ice cream where the ice cream is like I don't know something happened in the freezer or something it's just not right you ever have that problem some freezer burn yeah I think the whole thing was a freezer burn now this was a sometimes you have if you get one of those giant tubs of like just regular ice cream like Breyers or whatever or Edie's and it's there for a long time there's a gooeyness that gets to as you get to the bottom and that's not good but this problem is the it's so Kate bought those little mini Haagen-Dazs cups so that you can portion control I don't know who she had that in mind for but it's portion control so I don't eat a giant probably for Captain Bill I'm sure it's for Captain Bill not for me like it's family ties remember they always eat the pints and does so this one she had out coffee she's like this just isn't it doesn't isn't right and so she was guy said don't throw it away because you know me I hate waste so I took it and it was like ice milk and different shades of coffee I ate it anyway so we'll see what happens I may have to pause in the middle of this in case I have to run to the bathroom when did you consume this
JVL00:04:14at dinner so like two hours ago yeah just about can can you bring the microphone into the bathroom with you should you need it because that is the
Vic00:04:25type of content oh people only get on people love that I'll be like yeah I don't want it so anyway that's what's happening but I really do fee but it really is a we all have our issues I'm sure our listeners know this but compulsions neuroses but mine is really I don't have any we'll get to that in second I I mine is I just hate seeing things go to waste so one other things you know I hate it really bothers me it's
JVL00:04:55reasonable so people are starving in Ethiopia that's a very timely subject as
Sonny00:05:01a child of the depression Vic I know that you don't want to go away this is
Vic00:05:06what we had the milk gravy for the milk gravy we got the drippings and so what happened was Kate's parents had come over when it was her birthday on the birthday itself and they brought over a giant carrot cake but we're not cake people so it just sat there and Kate's like I'm just gonna throw it away and I said don't throw it away it's a nice I'm not a cake person myself I don't eat cake unless it's ice cream so I started to eat the carrot cake and then I'm like I hate to see this gonna waste and it was like turning into like Smith and Walensky size portions do you
Sonny00:05:40remember how many calories were in those those are like 2,500 oh no yeah they were they were like 2,400 calorie slices of cake quote to be shared you know for
Vic00:05:49two for two right and I just had to stop myself because even for me I said I I'm sure it
Sonny00:05:55was like Raging Bull it's like that episode of The Simpsons where Homer has the sandwich that's decaying all right that's right so that's me Santino wait what's my what's my neuroses oh boy just pick one at random there seem to be so
Vic00:06:13many yeah well I think crankiness and meanness if you that goes under the category you have a compulsion to be mean oh come on I'm I'm the least mean person that you
Sonny00:06:26know continue please what you been up to there big guy I don't really have anything so let's see we've got several posters you've got the blue one yes it looks like anime hold on guys hold on let me yes I see it I'm still not sure JBL what is that
JVL00:06:50so so that what is the artist's name he does the fantastically complicated no
Sonny00:06:56it's it's not a it's not one of those no it's a sucker punch print from from Mondo from Mondo but the artist yes but the artist who I think the artist is Ken Tucker I might be I think you're thinking of probably Tyler Stout yes it's not a Tyler Stout I don't it does look Tyler Stoutish I actually don't really like Tyler Stout because he's he's a little bit busy for my tastes and this is frankly a little bit busy for my tastes but it's the only Mondo sucker punch print that
JVL00:07:24that exists so is that a limited edition one oh they always make two versions oh
Sonny00:07:29it's a limited oh well so they're both numbered there's always one that's numbered in fewer yeah so this one there there were two there were two editions of it this one was the one that's limited to 275 the other one was limited to like 130 or something is about half the size it's probably worth what $17 now edition no no it it is it is it is a it is a valuable print look it up on eBay and see what see what people have sold it for mm-hmm I picked it up in a during a recent auction that Mondo was putting on to benefit their employees the owner of the Alamo Drafthouse also owns Mondo and that whole little empire I knew that yeah Tim league is his name and he was he basically has I think he has essentially at least one copy of every print in his own little personal archive and he threw the doors open and auctioned them off on a on a on a site called a movie posters calm wait so is this his copy so this is the this is one of this is one of the copies from his personal collection so
JVL00:08:39so this is like it's got a provenance not just it's not just some some is it
Sonny00:08:44like sorry is it signed a little no it's just it's handed it's hand numbered it's by the artist that's I'm most of these most of these prints don't the artists don't sign most of these prints it's weird I I always kind of assume that would be like kind of a standard thing but it's not the only one that I have that is signed by the artist is a Drew Struzan he who's the guy who did like the the like most famous early Star Wars posters and the oh yeah the Indiana Jones posters and he did it he did a Blade Runner poster when it was rereleased in 94 or something like that and there's a there's like a I don't again it was like one of 50 print run that he signed like
Vic00:09:24like if you look at the hair it doesn't say Nina in the hair I don't know what
JVL00:09:28that means I have a couple a couple towers doubts that I lucked into on Mondo from their lottery man they're great yeah I again I
Sonny00:09:39like him I I just I find it I find it a little bit busy I like that I like the more minimalist style but no I love this one I love this one it's it's great sucker but people people often accuse me of my sucker punch fandom being stick but if it's stick it's very expensive stick that not not many people get to appreciate you're very committed to the bed yes I'm
JVL00:10:01very very committed to the bit what are what other expensive sucker punch bits of memorabilia and accoutrements do you have there's a wardrobe there's a there's
Sonny00:10:13an art of sucker punch book that was put out by Titan books it was like it was like I again it was like a limited I are one of 250 copies or something like that that's of course signed by Zack Snyder and had like a little a little art print in with that as well Wow I I own that I mean there's the there I I I have my eyes set my sight set on a it was like a comic-con steelbook version of the blu-ray or something but it was outrageously expensive it was like $200 for a blu-ray that I already had I was just like I'm not gonna well but that
JVL00:10:47blu-ray is different than the one right it's not just that it comes in a steel
Sonny00:10:51case no it's just it's just literally just the steel no there's no there's no
JVL00:10:55extras the disc itself must have it's probably better version of the movie or
Sonny00:11:00maybe I deleted it has the elusive director's cut you know cuz what's out right now is just there's a theatrical cut and an extended cut but not be the
JVL00:11:09true Zack Snyder so it must be like the Wu-Tang Clan really really purchase where there is there is an extra cut of the D of the movie that only exists in that steel box and maybe you own it maybe then you get to see it one would
Vic00:11:28hope one would hope reminds me of my memorabilia from she's all that I got a lot of that but you got a lot of it oh boy a lot of nerd glasses I own her original the canvas the artwork that she the picture the picture of her mother
Sonny00:11:47remember I do not remember believe it or not I haven't seen she's all that in 25
Vic00:11:53years I bought I bought her overalls that she wears her denim overalls I'm wearing them right now too baby can't see me Lisa was the overalls on your not
Sonny00:12:02the under rolls oh boy wish we could see him right now yeah it's all sound
Vic00:12:09effects now what I've been reduced to yeah we got to get your camera working
Sonny00:12:14again this is no this is no good
JVL00:12:17uh so I I was trying to figure out what to talk about this week well I can't believe you made us watch this and I know no I meant in this in this portion of the show I was gonna update you guys on my life oh yes and I realized that I I have been so busy that I could not remember what I had done between now and the last time we sat down together so I pulled out my calendar and was looking through the days and it's just just stuff you know it's not nothing is exciting then I realized that something exciting has happened to me but I'm a little bit reluctant to talk about it on the show did you get a sucker punch print so this is this is something that Victorino knows a lot about mm-hmm but it is a very new experience for me I made a famous friend Oh famous friend a famous friend and it is something else can you tell us something else I can't tell you wow not
Vic00:13:22on air I can tell you guys off air I do you want to bleep it out Sonny sure hold
Sonny00:13:37on go ahead
JVL00:13:46and he and I have become like actual buddies and we emailed back and forth with each other in fact I'm gonna email him later tonight I hope I don't come
Vic00:14:00across as a stalker speaking of night stalkers it's good thing we had that
Sonny00:14:07otherwise you wouldn't have been able to do the transition yeah thank God I'm
JVL00:14:11sorry I always give you a get a grade Victorino and I was always very generous
Sonny00:14:15that's a that's a that's a remind me remind me to mention remind me at the end of the show to bring this up JBL just okay okay so we watched a
JVL00:14:26documentary on the Netflix docu-series docu-series on the Netflix Sonny would
Vic00:14:34you like to do a big boy review hold on wait somebody else thought that is so inappropriate oh my goodness terrible go ahead
Sonny00:14:45son all right I actually have to look up the the full title of this because it is not just the Night Stalker I thought I thought that that is what it that's what it was give me give me one sec so we watched Night Stalker the hunt for a serial killer not just the Night Stalker which is what it is called on the title cards of the show it's a four-part docu-series it runs a total of about three hours it's about a four it's four forty five minute episodes and it is it is about the murders that took place in Los Angeles in 1985 to 1986 or so committed by Richard Ramirez and the the the the scary thing about this guy was that he had no real patterns there was no there was no rhyme or reason to his crimes he just kind of walked into houses and killed and murdered and raped and beat I didn't really steal much it was it wasn't really wasn't doing it for for to make money or anything it was just just crazy sick person and in addition to all that he was also sexually assaulting children young children very disturbing kidnapping kidnapping kidnapping children like taking them from their home and kidnapping them and and and having their way having his way with them so again it was very disturbing to kind of watch all of this play out in the in the course of the documentary the heroes of the documentary so to speak they are two cops one is a younger guy on the force he was you know tough kid from the streets who went to the army and then got into the got into the LAPD and worked his way up to homicide where he teamed up with the legendary homicide detective who who had caught what was it the hillside strangler Frank Solerno Frank Solerno who caught the hillside strangler Gil Carrillo was the the younger guy and the the two of them are on the case I think they're assigned to the first killing and that's how they get on the case but it's it is Gil who puts together the fact that this guy is not only committing murders but is also sexually assaulting the children and the way they do it is the craziest it's like something straight out of an airport terrible novel but the the killer is wearing the same shoe and leaving shoe prints at all of these various crime scenes and it's a shoe that they sold literally one pair of in Los Angeles in the Los Angeles area what what were they called? Avia. Avia. I feel like those are probably yeah I feel like you guys would have more. Eventually purchased by Reebok but yeah so
JVL00:17:32but they were a an aerobic shoe not a basketball shoe and he had the only black pair in that size that had been sold in LA in the previous year yeah so
Sonny00:17:43like real real just totally random thing that connected him to all of these crimes and anyway so the the show is about the various failures frankly of the police force for for a while and how they they couldn't they couldn't they couldn't track him they thought they had a line on him and they pulled the cops from a dentist that he was supposed to visit the day before he you know who knows if that if it was actually that close but they they pulled the cops the the next day the guy shows up and gets his teeth fixed the they they are they're running around pulling their hair out or that was
Vic00:18:17impounded with the fingerprints car that was impounded with fingerprints all
Sonny00:18:20sorts of stuff all sorts of stuff I'm I'm fascinated by this this documentary not so much because of the Night Stalker but because of the way they tell this story it is a very throwback some would say problematic version of this story because it is not at all interested in Richard Ramirez and and some would say well you don't want to glorify him you don't want to but it's not interested in his like victimized childhood it's not interested in his his horrible upbringing it's not interested in telling us his story at all it focuses squarely on the cops and turns them into pretty straightforward heroes which is very amusing especially towards the end of the third episode I don't know if you guys caught this but one of you one of the police officers who found one of Richard Ramirez as friends in in in San Francisco and like tied him to one of the killings via a piece of jewelry or something and this guy was like I'm never gonna tell you Ramirez his name I'm never gonna I'm never gonna give up my friend and so the cop pops him in the face and is just bragging about this on like it like this is a like this is a he's talking to Clint Eastwood getting ready for a for a cop movie and he just and he's like and then and then I hit him in the face and the guy was like is that the best you can do so I wound up all the way back to the glass and I was gonna come forward again and he gave up the name and I was just like we are in a very interesting moment in our in our cultural and social history where the the acronym ACAB all cops are bastards is is bandied about with pretty frequent regularity on Twitter and we have we have decided that this is not an acceptable way to do police work and this guy's just kind of just an old school cop who's happy he got his guy he will be played by a heavyset Bradley Cooper but anyway it's just again it was it was just a very it was a very weird discordant moment in in in relation to the rest of our history I don't know I mean I thought it was I thought it was a really I thought it was a really interesting documentary I thought it was like kind of terrifying I didn't know much about the Night Stalker other than the like pentagram on the hand thing in the courtroom the the like image that has become kind of a meme over the years I knew he was bad dude but I did not realize quite how bad yeah I thought I I thought it was really good and really well done and kept my attention for 300 minutes or I'm sorry for 180 minutes one night so mm-hmm in one night I watched it all in one night I just sat down and powered through it I was like I'm
Vic00:21:00getting through this thing did you did you like there's there's a moment in the early on when they think they might have found the Night Stalker and it's this guy who is just scoping out women yeah up and down the strip and then they went to his house and found all the porno mags and that he had cut holes in panties that he owned man that's when I
Sonny00:21:23stopped cutting holes in panties I said you pulled it together and then I was
Vic00:21:29never caught uh yes sorry Vic what did you what did you make of the the show
Sonny00:21:34you you you seem to be pretty into it you were actually texting me I was and I'm
Vic00:21:38like I'm not paying attention to show on texting cuz I'm missing things and you know me I miss things a lot so like I have no idea how he was caught no I'm just kidding uh so I found it very who was that guy in the courtroom who's that dude deeply disturbing yet gripping and I thought I also thought deeply religious I mean there is an acceptance that some of us have that evil exists I see JVL you know what I mean but I mean there's like in terms of trying to explain the methodology of you know what these killers do or why they do these things and I've heard this before and then that's just because there is evil in this world and that is true and there was something very deeply obviously satanic about him how much he was playing up to it it's just disturbing though the things that he said things that victims said that he said and so I I like that about it and I like the idea that it was based on these two cops I think it's nice they're sort of you know uneven bookends if you will one is this the large heavy set you know Mexican young cop and then the older Italian guy working together I thought I thought it was great and yeah so did you
Sonny00:22:55believe in did you believe in Satan more after this I know that you've always believed but I mean now that you've seen him yeah yeah yeah I know he's like the
Vic00:23:03embodiment of I mean I know the flesh yeah well I think what the the disturbing thing was the sketch of him because you know based on the sketches like oh my god Lou Reed is the Night Stalker it was very unfair to Lou you look at that picture it's Lou Reed unfair to Richard
JVL00:23:21Ramirez Richard Ramirez is like wildly except for the teeth yeah you know very handsome much better looking and apparently smell like a goat yeah no but a very handsome guy you could see why a bunch of in the last broken women threw
Vic00:23:36themselves at yeah that happens and also and I like that they you know interview it also the folks in the media you know the the reporter and stuff I mean it's I has all the it has all the makings of a movie because you know you have the media they're doing their thing the the the female reporter who's threatening to spill the beans unless you get something good in the exclusive interview I mean
Sonny00:23:56all that stuff is it is it is a movie that is very again the show is very very antagonistic toward the media it's very antagonistic toward the like kind of liberal California politicians Dianne Feinstein does not come out looking good in this yeah who is the mayor of the mayor of San Francisco at the time and like just totally blew all of the the the secret info about Ramirez
Vic00:24:21which so I guess they were fair to say unbeknownst to her she does you know she was not briefed on that but nevertheless there goes the shoe you know so anyway
Sonny00:24:31it was a I thought again I thought it was like I thought it was weirdly it was weirdly and enjoyably reactionary which is which is always right up Sonny Bunches
Vic00:24:40way right up your alley and and I like the idea I like the idea it reminds you of the whole idea of nostalgia and there was a piece done on this I think in the journal about you know studies show everybody thinks that life was always better when they grew up and what happens is that they just forget about all the other things that happened at the time we talked about the 1980s and things like that in California you know and remember California at the time and it's LA law and I think is great and all the celebrities I mean people talked about California just from one example was like you know California cuisine and spa goes I remember interviewing when I interviewed Michelle Richard he's like nobody talks about LA food anymore that used to be the scene LA was the scene you had to be in LA and it's not really the case anymore but it was interesting reminder of that time and what we remember and what we don't remember and I was in Glendale I think for like the summer of 1987 two years after this and I didn't remember it at the time though anyway that's my thought they're my two cents for you
Sonny00:25:42JVL what did you what did you make of it hi did you make it through boy I hated
JVL00:25:50it no I did make it through I texted you guys after the first episode I said are we sure we want to do a show about kiddie rape are we sure that's what we want to do and you both were like oh it's great it's great it's great and I watched the remaining three episodes with the 1.5 speed and that almost shake my head to almost made the pace bearable because this thing just quad documentary yeah of shit it's a little bit padded little bit padded it is slow it is filled with endless reenactments and not just reenactments reenactments not just reenactments of things that happened but random reenactments of like a fly flying into a spiderweb and sitting in the spiderweb for 45 seconds or a rat a lot of animal animals a hammer that
Vic00:26:51jump only in slow motion cat that jumped on the ledge yeah I saw pistol firing in
JVL00:26:57slow motion teletype animation did you notice the teletype animation that they kept going back to why the hell were they putting this stuff in here and it reveals the two most basic things that this story needs to establish which are the both the spatial and temporal geography so we don't really get any sense at all unless you know the LA Met County area really really really well what these what these crimes look like on a map right you don't you don't get to randomness of it you don't get to see wait a minute you know here he's here one day he's here another day but the other thing you don't see is because they just flash on the screen like day 105 day 62 you don't have a sense of the weirdness of the sequences where they'll you know there'll be murders on back-to-back nights but then he would go dark for for three weeks right and what you what you as the audience really really want a need in order to understand what it was like then because that's that's what this needs to establish for us is right not just what it's like with us sitting watch but what was it like to feel like you were living in LA at that moment you needed to have a sense of what that pace felt like and the fear of you know there hasn't been a night stalker killing in two weeks the other shoes gonna drop any day now right and the the filmmakers are just incompetent in their absolute refusal to to give us any of that sort of information in ways that stick and make clear what was happening I I got viscerally angry at the thing while I was watching it because of these again the failure to show us geography the failure to really explain the timeline to put us in the mindset of what it was like to be in LA then and then the endless padding of you know essentially cut scenes and reenactments that that give nothing and which even at 1.5 speed I would find myself drumming my fingers going can't get what why are we doing this come on come on come on
Vic00:29:25that's funny I read I watched it at 1.0 speed and I was glued really I liked it
Sonny00:29:31I yeah I I I would disagree with your with your point about the spatial logic of it I think they do a decent job with some kind of neighbor animated map thing going like but not an area I never show you start well yeah you don't you don't see the whole thing I don't think you do because I think if you're paying attention and you're watching it and you're actually like you know you're watching it at 1.0 speed maybe the the the locations are all in such different places from the center of Los Angeles I mean it like I I think I I did not have any trouble understanding that it was an enormous area enormous amount of area
JVL00:30:10that they were trying to cover no I didn't I want the specifics that's what I'm saying I you get the sense oh it's just this big area but what the viewer would you really need to see do you need to see like I don't think I don't think
Sonny00:30:25you actually need that the timing thing is trickier but I don't I don't really know how you do that without actually just saying they won six because if
JVL00:30:31you're you show an actual time line with this is literally what you see gap apps that's what you need you need to you you start out big right and you zoom in on the timeline to the new point you are so that every time you're at you see it I don't know and decent that this is lurid in in the worst sense of the word I think winds up making it ultimately an unnecessary document it doesn't have anything to say there's no new information yeah it sort of you know the couple things that it picks up on like the it opens with it opens with the woman in the Salvation Army the thrift store who Ramirez comes in and picks up the ACDC hat that he's gonna wear for the rest of the film and then hours later has stalked the woman back and tries to run her off the road right it starts with that but then abandons that all do you know we have no idea when was that in relation to the beginning of his series right and then it ends with an interview that Ramirez is granting somebody right they they give you a voiceover you know he was sentenced to death in San Quentin he did not speak to anybody except for this one crime writer right and you hear like ten seconds of their audio recordings and then just walks away from that and we never never hear weekly again just incompetent direction absolutely incompetent direction for something that winds up shedding no
Vic00:32:11light on anything and I didn't know that you know I mean I didn't follow I mean I
Sonny00:32:20didn't so this is this was all new information to me this is I knew none of
Vic00:32:24this I knew none of the details I didn't and this provided all the you would have
JVL00:32:29known you you would know more about the entirety of the Night Stalker case by spending literally three minutes on the Richard Ramirez Wikipedia page oof burn I'm not
Sonny00:32:42I'm not kidding and what did you think about the choice of not focusing at all
JVL00:32:47on Ramirez at least not until the last I like that which is the beginning of the episode they go into him no I think that I think that's exactly the right choice because the manhunt aspect of it is the interesting part and you know we actually I disagree their characterization of the San Francisco cop who is the one who really breaks open the case by accident mm-hmm and when he pops the guy and he's recounting the recounting the this story I did not see that as a swaggering like he did not sound to me like a guy who's like super proud of what he did and he isn't broke up about it either but it was like you know he's basically but
Sonny00:33:27white yeah it was a matter-of-fact recounting it was not a it was not I agree that he was not being like and then I looked at my buddy and I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna smoke him smoke him out
Vic00:33:39here but he was honest about talking about he started thinking about the crime scenes you know I mean these things I mean it's graphic it's traumatic you know you have to be you know you're in there and that's what set
JVL00:33:50him off but so that and that situation so this is towards the end of the the series right before before Ramirez has been caught when they they feel like they're really getting close to this to this guy but his his crimes have picked up a little bit and they don't know where he's gonna strike next because they think he may have left town right I mean it like the cops are panicking that he's gonna slip through their grasp and this is as close to the ticking time bomb scenario which is what America has debated since 9/11 right when it comes to torture which is you know what can you torture people well what what if it's just not what if it's not so the zero dark thirty answer is essentially that all all all things being equal you get more actionable and better intelligence from people by interrogating them in sort of systematic ways but the ticking time bomb scenario is the exception to that right if you know if if you catch a guy who knows that there's a bomb in six hours right you know where there's a hard deadline torture does kind of work right and that's that's what this was this was not roughing up the subject because he was mad at them because he was mad at the
Sonny00:35:11guy this wasn't he beat the information out of him he literally beat the but
JVL00:35:14that's why he beat him he didn't beat him because he was angry with him yeah he beat him because he had this information right there needed there that close they needed to know and there were luckily he didn't say to go to
Sonny00:35:25Avenue X I'm sorry nobody's getting the Dark Knight right Wow okay no
Vic00:35:33so uh yeah I don't know there was very eerie things about this story though including about don't look at me and cutting out eyes and that was and you ever see Red Dragon with Ralph Fiennes you know it's it's it's it's that
JVL00:35:48obviously it's not it's the other way around I mean yeah so who do I think he's Wayne grow as much as anything else because the other the interesting thing qua qua criminology about this is that again they had Gil Carrillo originally says I think these things are all linked right
Sonny00:36:09there's a whole bunch of and nobody's there there are murders and also child sexual assaults like going on at the same time and nobody's it doesn't fit
JVL00:36:18the new the normal pattern he thinks right and they don't because he's you know you know if you have a guy who kills men and rapes and kills women but then kidnapped no you know that same guy doesn't also abduct and also sexual abuse both boys and girls like that's and he's like no I think this is right and even talks to like criminologists right you say we just don't have we've never seen that before yeah and it is the footprint which you know connects that and makes them realize that it is interesting that you know so Ramirez does not have a signature and not even a modus operandi other than the fact that he breaks into
Sonny00:36:58houses at night that's right and then it was totally random again it was not like I mean the randomness of it is almost the signature in a weird way because there there are very few serial cases like that they they either they usually either get you know whatever they get like prostitutes right right right going back to Jackie or they or they they you know you know have have bars that they have it or whatever I like it there's usually a pattern of some sort and with this it was just like he would literally just go up to houses and walk in right
Vic00:37:28what I wanted to know was you know I mean you know as much as a call of the Night Stalker I mean like I said he didn't do much stalking per se and you know so he would just what go around to different homes and then if it's open he'll just kill and rape whoever's in there regard he doesn't even know yet who's in there and he just goes in so it I mean I guess that was his well that's
JVL00:37:48what it doesn't do the documentary does not at all establish that right how was that is it just he happens to be in a name that was that was a question there is no you know the documentary's nothing to say on all that instead of addressing any of those interesting questions and conveying information we get I don't know probably a 12 minutes total of shots of slow-motion rats and cats and stuff right you could have combined here two episodes the Hammers the Hammers a
Sonny00:38:16lot of that's true no I agree I totally agree with you that it was it was padded out and every episode could have probably been five minutes shorter five
Vic00:38:26to ten minutes shorter at least isn't the case now with every Netflix but this
Sonny00:38:32is that this is this is a Netflix problem is that their sitcoms are 30 to 35 minutes instead of 20 to 25 minutes there you know their their dramas tend to be a little over an hour there the whole point of Netflix right is that they are trying to keep you on the service and just watching whatever whatever they want to serve up to you and it's it's I think it I think it look I so I watched the white tiger in addition to this because we had been talking about what we wanted to watch and I I didn't think white tiger quite worked for the show either because it would just I the the real problem with it is it it's a it's a two hour and 12 minute movie that could have easily been an hour and 50 minute movie and if if somebody had sat down and trimmed 15 to 20 minutes out of it like it's a much more entertaining better flowing more energetic picture and this is I think this is the same basic problem if you could if you could trim 30 minutes out of the three hours it's a it's a much better pay show I think I don't know I have a question for
JVL00:39:30you boys if you were offered the chance to watch a 30-minute show that was 22 lean minutes with eight minutes of commercials or a 30-minute show with no commercials but that has eight minutes of padding to it which would you prefer can I fast-forward through the commercials well that's a question maybe you can fast-forward them can I record it on my DVR and then watch it later certainly you can get up and walk around or go to the bathroom during commercial right I mean you don't have to sit there once because here's the thing if it's commercials you know which parts you don't have to pay attention to right and if it's padding then you're like well I don't know is something interesting gonna happen now is this the part that serves the plot I think can we just go back to me could I just get rabbit ears can we go back to maybe some broadcast networks producing actual content that's lean and has been workshopped and thought through and not just we need more hours on the service so go out and shoot your second draft that's cool can we do that no is that gone that's that's never
Sonny00:40:45coming back advertising does not work as a model JBL you know that in terms of
Vic00:40:51the panic that set in wait a minute hold on I'm so wait Victorino Sonny what if
JVL00:40:56I'm just throwing this out there what if Wall Street bets tomorrow starts telling people to invest money in Comcast or I don't know pick some broadcast surely there is a broadcaster somewhere that they could invest in no drive the valuation up to you know all the broadcast billion dollars all the
Sonny00:41:16broadcasters have streaming services now so if you invest in you know Universal you invest in NBC Comcast Universal right that that goes to the peacock you invest in Fox it goes to one of the Fox streaming services who knew that I'm that I'm sure I think they got out of Hulu I'm actually not sure what Fox belongs to Disney now that's why oh that's right 20 well but I don't think the actual broadcast channels do I think that was carved out of the the idea I don't know I don't know what the I don't know the answer there is the the other option is what CBS CBS has the the paramount the paramount channel is coming yeah I saw a
Vic00:41:53commercial for it there's a paramount network on and ABC of course is owned by
Sonny00:41:57Disney which Disney Plus I mean they're there there is no there is no broadcast channel except for like PBS who wants to watch PBS I'd rather blow my brains out or you know you could watch the cable access channel
JVL00:42:10watch Wayne's World alright so so let me throw this at you what if we pay for the streaming services but then because in in exchange for keeping us on their services for fewer minutes they made up that money by putting ads in the
Sonny00:42:29content nobody's gonna be good for an ad driven service are you crazy so that
JVL00:42:34this way I could both pay for the privilege of having the channels and then also pay by watching ads well just like cable again it'll be great you
Sonny00:42:45should just read a book that's what you should do just read a book skip skip the pages you don't want to read I the old days are never coming back JBL we live
JVL00:42:53in the future now see I think I think the old days are exactly coming back I think this is we're gonna we're gonna wind up we're gonna wind up with paying for you're gonna have to buy five different services each of which is essentially a bundle of some sort right the way the Disney is a bundle of ESPN plus plus Disney plus plus Hulu and Peacock is gonna be a bundle of NBC Universal in addition to WWE and Paramount is gonna be paramount plus CBS NetLive and CBS all access we're heading to that plus they have commercials and it's going to be exactly like cable the only difference is that instead of they coming to us through the cable first the cable goes into your modem yeah and then the modem projects it onto your television yeah well it's why that will
Sonny00:43:42be the only table at all it's not cable it's wireless cheese that will be the
JVL00:43:46only difference that's where we're heading and it's gonna be amazing because it'll be so progress I don't think that's what's gonna happen but
Sonny00:43:53maybe I'm wrong I have no idea I mean the net the peacock the peacock offers a free if the peacock has a free version that is ad-supported yeah you can actually get that you just like get that already just like the rabbit ears right
JVL00:44:07it's literally the rabbit ears it's it's broadcast over there broadcast over the
Sonny00:44:12air channels back how did people get TV over the air that doesn't make any sense what it just comes up like magic through I can't Victorino I can't tell if this
JVL00:44:22is a bit or if he's actually so young I've never I've never used broadcast
Sonny00:44:28TV I don't I don't remember that in any in any way shape I did not get cable TV
JVL00:44:34until I was 23 I take it back we we had broadcast TV in when I lived in England
Sonny00:44:43because you otherwise you had to get like a whole gaudy satellite system there was no cable yet so we I think we had broadcast TV there but it was like BBC one BBC two three yeah I don't know yeah I had cable of course you did with
JVL00:44:58all the pay channels the box you got the box yeah I bet you didn't have the box
Vic00:45:05you know with it no I didn't know that we had a conversation about that where you got a you know you toggle between oh that was Chris oh that was Chris who had channel B it was somewhere in between B and the other one and then you could get
JVL00:45:18yeah go ahead my mother is so fucking crazy that she Sonny put your drink down I don't want you to spit it on the spit on your computer my mother so crazy that she hated cable so much that when we moved into a house that was cable ready in 1988 she went around the house in every cable access point and pushed the coaxial cable back into the wall and then then like you put drywall over it and sealed it off Wow she's crazy she took a cable ready house and made it cable less so you mean you had rabbit ears till
Vic00:45:57you were 23 yeah yeah that's right all through college all through high school well college college I went to Chris's house college college oh well I remember in college we had the I guess we used rabbit ears as well it was Mike Sandler's TV yeah anyway okay but in terms of I wanted to go back to if we can just go back to the this thing about terror and such yeah visiting with the green and that's the thing because well the there isn't you know he was obsessed with celebrity serial killers obviously so that's one thing he was reading up on it as I said he was a student that was interesting but in terms of like the panic that a city and then a state went through because like you know he's out there the only thing I could think of that we could relate to was the DC sniper remember that the sniper 100% do you remember what the sniper was like yeah I do because it was you know that one of the victims was at the Home Depot that we go to you know I mean it could it don't have been anyone and over on Bailey's that's right an hour former neighbor two doors down he's an FBI guy he was involved and he knew that those people and he told me what happened and it's it's absolutely horrific and I remember you would get gas and just like I got you know get in and out because you don't know where it was you don't know where it was
JVL00:47:21happening people get shot in gas I know literally people were terrified to pump gas and it came on the heels of 9/11 and the anthrax that's right that's right it was boom boom boom and
Vic00:47:30that was also random people kid the boss the whole random it's just nuts one of
Sonny00:47:36the one of the shootings was at the like near the Spotsylvania mall which is where like that was my my neighborhood mm-hmm growing up yeah it's a so what
JVL00:47:46did where do you guys where are you guys in general and serial killer movies I remember there's this whole thing in conservative culture like 20 years
Sonny00:47:56ago which is like oh these movies glorifying serial killers are bad is
JVL00:48:04that your I'm sorry that's typically you think if you think carefully Victorino
Vic00:48:10you will know whose voice that is okay I mean I would say I remember first being obsessed about this sort of thing when I was probably about six and it was because we had what HBO and there was like a party going on in the house so like the kids we were downstairs and said let's see what's on HBO and it was a documentary they had a series Henry portrait oh that would know and this was like that was that was later and it was a series called who'd done it and on HBO and the episode that I saw that focused on Lizzie Borden the Zodiac killer and the Lindbergh kidnapping with graphic crime scene and I was so it was so distraught it bothered me for such a long time and yet you would I mean you think about and you'd be interested want to know more about it
Sonny00:49:03but it doubt and that's why I started cutting holes in the panties I don't
Vic00:49:07know what I'm still fascinated what the point is of the hole in the panty cutting
Sonny00:49:13out the pictures it made me happening there it made me feel better I stopped
Vic00:49:19thinking about Lizzie Borden put the basket well I mean I assume that's kind
Sonny00:49:26of when this all started right was like Silence of the Lambs that was that was
JVL00:49:30no I think it's Manhunter was later than that right so Manhunter Silence of the Lambs I'm sure there were Henry Portrait of the Serial Killer right I mean Henry was a cult classic in the 80s and that was one of the first slasher movies where the the slasher is the protagonist in that sense right is not just the motive force of the movie but is the actual protagonist that the movie stays with the whole time yeah you know what you know Michael Rooker right
Sonny00:50:02yes it is the great don't hate no he's no show don't fucking say that man if Michael Rooker dies Michael Rooker dies this week I'm coming out look at a JV
Vic00:50:16he's one he's 100% real effort that one because he came up recent all effort why
Sonny00:50:20did he he's a hundred percent there's 100 he's alive I know this I know this no
Vic00:50:25you know what you know what I thought was an excellent movie of this genre was Summer of Sam did you like Summer of Sam so or JV yes I believe it was excellent
Sonny00:50:38about Son of Sam I didn't love it he's alive okay we were talking about him and
Vic00:50:44I don't remember why so sorry I'll stop talking about it now but Summer of Sam
Sonny00:50:49is good Zodiac is really considered to me not see well I mean I'm actually not I'm actually not big on Zodiac I know I know people who really really love Zodiac because it's it's often considered to be one of like the best films of the 2000s and I just don't see it I don't see that Mark Ruffalo doesn't that's Mark Ruffalo and David Jalen Hall it's a David Fincher movie I mean I like in in the space in the in the world of David Fincher serial killer movies I think seven is better I think you know I think that's a much better film but yeah no Zodiac is considered to be very very good I I don't know I mean Silence of the Lambs is like one every major award when it's is it the last movie to sweep all of the major awards at the Oscars maybe I don't know I can't remember but it's one of the last ones and it holds up have you guys watched it recently I know but I've read it's still really does I bet it's really really good
JVL00:51:54yeah all right spirit of the week sunny what are you drinking I'm just drinking
Sonny00:52:04an old-fashioned it was I was kind of annoyed usually I make my old fashions with a one lemon peel and one orange peel and I twist them to get the essential oils out of them to give the them the flavor I didn't have any
Vic00:52:15oranges so I just used some fees orange bitters not the same don't forget the packet of sweet and low at the maraschino cherry sunny slice of orange I have my I'm not
Sonny00:52:32drinking a fruit punch with a with a splash of bourbon on top so I fit are you drinking anything Vic what are you don't see me here I've got an enormous
Vic00:52:41beer bong no I I drank yesterday and I don't again normally drink during the week day and it was at the end what bullshit really is it's how I've been maintain my youth and but I made myself a martini yesterday and it was with just enough I'm always running out of gin it's it's maddening and I don't know why
Sonny00:53:04how would that I think I think it's because I only drink once a month saying yeah yeah yeah yeah running out of gin in my home granted I don't remember what
Vic00:53:12I was doing yesterday but I'm pretty sure it wasn't drinking and I could keep on thinking that I must have moved stuff around and that there's a stash so there is and I just wait on the spot right here I just remembered I do have a giant thing of Beefeater in the freezer so thank you for reminding myself I'll
Sonny00:53:27get there well you know I'm alone why would you want why would you why would you want to drink that anyway the freezer yeah I only have a little bit of
Vic00:53:34fun with that so I got it you can save that okay so anyway corrections
JVL00:53:39additions shoutouts do you I have a correction for it from Matt Bramante who says that our talk about the weirdness of going from TV to movie this is happens much more often than we think Westworld Fargo Friday Night Lights Wow totally true three three absolutely okay a bunch here um multiple listeners
Vic00:54:01pointed out for example the Alan Alda did not kill the baby on mash he forced a mother to kill the chicken which turned out to be the baby I said ginger on Gilligan's Island was played by Tina Grant I it was Tina Louise I was thinking T Louise who played ginger grant and I oftentimes will mix first and last names together and this reminded me of the time that our former colleague Priscilla Jensen I once introduced her as Priscilla Barnes and Andy said no it's Jensen I said who's Priscilla Barnes and Andy said I believe she was on Three's Company and she was Priscilla Barnes also in Mallrats yeah well yes with the fake the fake the third yes Terry Aldrich RN okay and I do I do want to say we were joking around about the guns of ox to now it took me 27 years and I'm about 40 pages away I I do want to I do want to clarify that I did put it down for a couple decades before I picked it up again so it's not like I was reading it like a day but and I asked myself why why did I pick it up again why did I decide that I want to finish this book and you know what do you know why because I said this would be a great book for me to finally finish before we have our 1917 episode we did a discussion of the movie 1917 yeah sorry about that I just want to point out and then so then I've been reading it constantly for the last two
Sonny00:55:32years okay okay all right well two years Santino you have anything I got on as
JVL00:55:42always that's all the time we're giving to this episode questions comments complaints compliments tweet us at Sonny Bunch at Victorino Mattis or JB
Sonny00:55:52Last he's on the Twitter he's always checking it as we discussed earlier in this show at JB Last he will hear your pleas you have also different like
Vic00:56:03images and and and the one that's for your Twitter still is the old old sketch by the way that that one looks that one with the cigar no no no the one after that but that one kind of looks like it's like a wanted poster as well but go
JVL00:56:16ahead leave a comment at subbeacon.com we're there tell your friends until next time I feel like I'm getting worse at this every episode no we need to bring the
Vic00:56:37professional you know what when we hit how many listeners do we have now how
Sonny00:56:40many subscribers we have we're over 1,500 let me know when we I was I I made
JVL00:56:44that when we hit 2,000 subscribers will you host yes of course yeah I'm serious about this all right all right guys can you all go out and start proselytizing everybody get one more
Sonny00:56:56subscriber and then we'll be able to we'll be able to get Vic back on hosting
JVL00:57:00duties I don't know if you guys have anything I don't I have nothing other
Vic00:57:05than my famous friend who I'm buddies with I was going I was gonna say so last Sunday you know we we go to the we go to morning mass which is 8 o'clock which is sometimes very tricky and it was last Sunday because did they talk about the
JVL00:57:21stolen election no but I would be all for it because that's a yeah that's a thing that is happening at all the Catholic churches and the greater it's
Vic00:57:31Virginia you have some good points there but no this was no more politics this was about I don't remember the point was I was very hungover because I because he had some of his weekday drinks I was crazy and he was still hungover martinis a glass of wine and several bourbons and different things at the end there a
JVL00:57:55little cordial and so wait when did you have Saturday Saturday night yes what
Vic00:58:02were you doing on Saturday dinner with the boss dinner with the boss and so
Sonny00:58:07where'd you guys go place yeah that's a good idea to drink like that when you're
Vic00:58:11out to dinner with the ball no at her place so anyway I get back and you know not feeling well but you know powered through that mass powered through that mass and I said and they walked out and there was a guy his name I believe nice really nice listener named Dan I had run into him some time ago and he was saying that he hadn't been following up on the podcast what happened on the podcast and I said oh we went over to patreon so you know check us out you know and so we're walking back to the car with family this car is in a parking lot window rolls down it's the guy Dan I think his name is and he said great episode last week and I thought you know what it was worth it
Sonny00:58:55getting up it was it's good it's good I'm sure it's fine
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